Multiple Opponents

[gusano]

This subject came up in the middle of another thread and I thought it deserved a thread unto itself.

... I have yet to see an adequate response from grapplers regarding multiple opponent engagements, but they train for "every facet of the fight," right? It's an old arguement, one that is revisited constantly, but I haven't seen much in the way of answers yet....

I'll answer that for you right now. With multiple opponent engagements it is not advisable to go to the ground. It is advisable to try to run away and escape if possible. The result for the grappler and striker is the same when facing multiple opponents.......you will get stomped more than likely!
Now I ask you, who do you think is better prepared to defend being taken down by multiple opponents? Multiple opponents, more often than not, will try to take YOU down and then proceed to stomp you senseless. Most "strikers" can't even defend being taken down by ONE skinny Brazilian kid, much less multiple opponents..LMAO! It will not be like the movies where the opponents circle round you and all take turns charging in to get knocked out by you one after the other. They will bum rush you and throw you to the ground and stomp the hell out of you PERIOD!

I would only add that another possible alternative is to pick up a weapon/object and use it to help yourself escape if possible. Interested in everyones feedback on this subject.

 

[MJS]

Interesting thread! I'm sure that it'll spark some interesting conversation.

One thing that I've noticed, is that any time someone talks about grappling with a striker, the first thing out of their mouth is, "Well, grappling isnt gonna work against mult attackers." It amazes me, because that is usually the only comeback that they can come up with. It's really no different than a grappler saying, "Well, that stand up stuff isnt gonna work on the ground."

What I'd like to know, is why the stand up guys seem to think that they have the market cornered on mult. attackers!!! We see many movies, where the 'hero' will fight a bar full of 20 guys, leaving them in a heap on the floor, and walk out un-touched. In reality, the chances of the 1 at a time attack are most likely pretty rare, instead its more likely to be 3 or more on 1.

Now, I'm not solely a grappler or solely a stand up fighter. I try to be as well rounded as I can in all ranges, so I'm really not here to take either side, but instead see what everyone else thinks about the mult. attacker debate.

My question is...why do people think that all grappling takes place on the ground??? If you stop and think about it, it doesnt!!!!!! Any time you grab onto someone or get into a clinch position, you are entering your standing grappling range. There are locks and chokes that can be applied standing as well as on the ground. Being able to grab onto someone in a mult. attacker situation, use them as a shield, while at the same time, striking them, just might give the other people something to think about. I mean, if you were watching your friend get his face and eyes raked, I dont know about anyone else, but I'd think twice before trying to attack the guy.

Any other thoughts on this??

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

My feeling is once you are into grappling range standing/not with 4 or more other hands on you, you're basically screwed in every way. I think creating distance here is essential, and trying to take away the advantage of the BGs by becoming the attacker, guerilla warfare style. Of course, assuming there's enough space, and that you are able to move. It's tough, because any mistakes you make are amplified greatly.

 

[Zoran]

Now I ask you, who do you think is better prepared to defend being taken down by multiple opponents? Multiple opponents, more often than not, will try to take YOU down and then proceed to stomp you senseless. Most "strikers" can't even defend being taken down by ONE skinny Brazilian kid, much less multiple opponents..LMAO! It will not be like the movies where the opponents circle round you and all take turns charging in to get knocked out by you one after the other. They will bum rush you and throw you to the ground and stomp the hell out of you PERIOD!

The person that is best prepared is the person who trains, as realistically as possible, against multiple attackers. If either the stand up guy or the MMA players only trains against one on one defense only, then they will be ill prepared for multi.

Same goes that if you train only for; grappling, stand up fighting, sparring, competition, or what have you, then you will only be good at that one thing and will have major problems when taken out of your element.

I always say that you can't be good or specialize in everthing. But when found in enemy territory (out of your element), you should have trained enough in it to have an escape route at the least.

 

[MA-Caver]

My feeling is once you are into grappling range standing/not with 4 or more other hands on you, you're basically screwed in every way. I think creating distance here is essential, and trying to take away the advantage of the BGs by becoming the attacker, guerilla warfare style. Of course, assuming there's enough space, and that you are able to move. It's tough, because any mistakes you make are amplified greatly.

Agreed that if one is bum-rushed or dog-piled there isn't too much to do about it except go nuts and hurt/maim everything that comes within range. Only rarely (in my experience) will a group of attackers actually do this. Street attackers are basically cowards, like a pack of dogs waiting for the alpha-leader to initiate and doing the most damage before moving in for the kill when it's safe because the "victim" has been rendered relatively harmless.
One advantage that every Martial Artist (should) have over the average street-punk or ASP (we are talking realistic scenarios here right??) is the psychological advantage. Creating the most damage to the lead attacker standing or on the ground will make the rest of the "pack" think twice. Nobody really wants to get hurt, or that is to say they rather hurt someone else than be hurting themselves.
Blood is a great psychological shocker. If you're dog-piled then cut, scratch, gouge, tear,... whatever to create the effect. Cause as much pain to one guy as possible because he's going to scramble backwards to get away from you ... in effect loosening the pile/weight/pressure on you, thus allowing you more freedom of movement to create as much damage as possible to the next guy.
This of course doesn't mean that you're not going to get hurt in the process. Hopefully this will be another advantage that a MA has over the ASP, the ability to ignore pain. For me personally, I'd better be really p-o-ed because I'm a wuss about pain and being ticked off helps me ignore my own hurts while inflicting "my own hurts on others". :uhyeah:
Either way, finesse, smooth flowing forms, perfected kicks and strikes all go right out the window when dog-piled. But the "one more advantage" a MA has over the ASP is the ability to keep a cool head in a fight.

 

[dubljay]

In a multiple opponent situation I don't think it will matter whether you a grappler or a striker, the key to surviving will be to keep your witts, and make every counter and move effective. A striker will be at a dissadvantage if he/she is knocked down and dog-piled, likewise a grappler will be at a dissadvantage if he/she comes up against a group confident and skilled at throwing strikes and bounces them around like a ping-pong ball. I have seen instances of both, and had the unfortuante luck of being dog-piled.

"box a wrestler and wrestle a boxer" a good fighter will adapt to the situation and do what ever it takes to make the opponent feel like they are at a dissadvantage.

In my experience with a mutliple opponent situation you are faced with a "mob mentatility" meaning the entire group has one goal and are working together, there is no individual thought or concience. The best way to difuse the situation is to destroy the mob mentality, to do this you must make each individual fear personal grevious injury.


Just my thoughts and experiences...

-Josh-

 

[bluenosekenpo]

In a multiple opponent situation I don't think it will matter whether you a grappler or a striker, the key to surviving will be to keep your witts, and make every counter and move effective. A striker will be at a dissadvantage if he/she is knocked down and dog-piled, likewise a grappler will be at a dissadvantage if he/she comes up against a group confident and skilled at throwing strikes and bounces them around like a ping-pong ball. I have seen instances of both, and had the unfortuante luck of being dog-piled.

"box a wrestler and wrestle a boxer" a good fighter will adapt to the situation and do what ever it takes to make the opponent feel like they are at a dissadvantage.

In my experience with a mutliple opponent situation you are faced with a "mob mentatility" meaning the entire group has one goal and are working together, there is no individual thought or concience. The best way to difuse the situation is to destroy the mob mentality, to do this you must make each individual fear personal grevious injury.


Just my thoughts and experiences...

-Josh-

well, we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous, quick as a key stroke, forget the segal aikido stuff, if you are faced with multiple opps and aren't trading shots, standing, you are dead. period. you ever been swarmed? things happen so quickly, you can't identify friend from foe let alone the alpha male! you have hands and feet from all directions and your one desire above all else is that you were anywhere else but here. you guys are regurgitating crap you've read or heard second hand.

you folks assume that you're up against a bunch of nervous nellies from some prep school? guess what, the guys i know would take it very, i mean very deeply personal, if one of their friends was eye gouged or taken to the mat! if you got out of that situation alive, you'd be lucky. this ain't the movies. it's real. you're out to lunch if you think otherwise.

macaver, the bum rush, what do the special response guys in prisons do? the bum rush, on harder men than you or i will ever be. is it effective, yeah.overwhelming force pins the violent con to the ground. do you want to be on the ground? i don't think so. pain, you ever get get your acl tagged? you are f*****d! you can't walk, you can't talk, you are toast.

zoran, my bro, sage words.

saskboy, i agree!

mike, there are basically four ranges, long(kick), medium(strike,box,fists, etc.), short(clinch, trapping,etc.) and ground(keep in mind, that along with BJJ and judo stuff, the other ranges can be performed in the horizontal!). as far as cornering the market? that is not the point. surviving an ugly situation is. regardless of any martial allegiance. stand up, roll on the ground or whatever. i'll put it as simply as i can. STAY ON YOUR FN FEET SO YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE. QUICK! if you don't believe me, how about, bruce lee, dan inosanto, paul vunak, burton richardson, larry tatum, lee bachman, geoff thompson, darren lauer etc. ! this should be obvious to any thinking person. really.

jeez, i was having such a good weekend. and yes my wife let me have the car.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

mike, there are basically four ranges, long(kick), medium(strike,box,fists, etc.), short(clinch, trapping,etc.) and ground(keep in mind, that along with BJJ and judo stuff, the other ranges can be performed in the horizontal!). as far as cornering the market? that is not the point. surviving an ugly situation is. regardless of any martial allegiance. stand up, roll on the ground or whatever. i'll put it as simply as i can. STAY ON YOUR FN FEET SO YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE. QUICK! if you don't believe me, how about, bruce lee, dan inosanto, paul vunak, burton richardson, larry tatum, lee bachman, geoff thompson, darren lauer etc. ! this should be obvious to any thinking person. really.

Agreed!! Again, I never said that rolling was the best thing to do, but helpful if you find yourself there, at least you'll have the skill to get back to your feet.

Mike

 

[MJS]

My feeling is once you are into grappling range standing/not with 4 or more other hands on you, you're basically screwed in every way. I think creating distance here is essential, and trying to take away the advantage of the BGs by becoming the attacker, guerilla warfare style. Of course, assuming there's enough space, and that you are able to move. It's tough, because any mistakes you make are amplified greatly.

Well, you did bring up a good point here....assuming that theres enough space and you can move. Of course, getting away, or trying to is the best option, but if it isnt available, you need to know how to fight in close. IMO, the clinch/trapping range is often overlooked and not understood by people.

There is so much that people can do in that range, and if they had an understanding of it, it would be just as good as fighting from a distance.

Mike

 

[Han-Mi]

Here is the problem with grapplers against multiple attackers; Locks take time.
A grappler without some good stand up fighting skills will be finished. I'm not saying strikers are awsome, strikers should learn to grapple as well, but I'd say they have a better chance against multiple opponents as long as they have trained for the situation. Basic stuff like opponent and self possitioning(you can run 2 people into each other pretty easily, if you are aware) and being able to attack while off balance(kick one way punch the other in less than a second). But the moral of all this really is that everyone should try to be well-rounded fighters, because you never know what's going to happen, there are a lot of people that wrestled in high school, and will wrestle with ya, and there are a lot that boxed in the armed forces and will try to stay standing. Be ready for it all.

 

[dubljay]

well, we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous, quick as a key stroke, forget the segal aikido stuff, if you are faced with multiple opps and aren't trading shots, standing, you are dead. period. you ever been swarmed? things happen so quickly, you can't identify friend from foe let alone the alpha male! you have hands and feet from all directions and your one desire above all else is that you were anywhere else but here. you guys are regurgitating crap you've read or heard second hand.

you folks assume that you're up against a bunch of nervous nellies from some prep school? guess what, the guys i know would take it very, i mean very deeply personal, if one of their friends was eye gouged or taken to the mat! if you got out of that situation alive, you'd be lucky. this ain't the movies. it's real. you're out to lunch if you think otherwise.

macaver, the bum rush, what do the special response guys in prisons do? the bum rush, on harder men than you or i will ever be. is it effective, yeah.overwhelming force pins the violent con to the ground. do you want to be on the ground? i don't think so. pain, you ever get get your acl tagged? you are f*****d! you can't walk, you can't talk, you are toast.

zoran, my bro, sage words.

saskboy, i agree!

mike, there are basically four ranges, long(kick), medium(strike,box,fists, etc.), short(clinch, trapping,etc.) and ground(keep in mind, that along with BJJ and judo stuff, the other ranges can be performed in the horizontal!). as far as cornering the market? that is not the point. surviving an ugly situation is. regardless of any martial allegiance. stand up, roll on the ground or whatever. i'll put it as simply as i can. STAY ON YOUR FN FEET SO YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE. QUICK! if you don't believe me, how about, bruce lee, dan inosanto, paul vunak, burton richardson, larry tatum, lee bachman, geoff thompson, darren lauer etc. ! this should be obvious to any thinking person. really.

jeez, i was having such a good weekend. and yes my wife let me have the car.

:asian:

I have been swarmed before, not an experience I would like to repeat, and I know all about a friends desire to defend eachother, the fights I have been in were mostly defending friends, like anything in martial arts you have to find what works for you, and I was merely stating what worked for me.

you are right, its important to get to your feet and get out of there, but sometimes that oppertunity never presents itself, and the faster you put them out of thier comfort zone, where they feel confident about their fighting ability the better... that was the point i was trying to make and apparently failed.

Oh well

-Josh-

 

[MA-Caver]

well, we've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous, quick as a key stroke, <snip> macaver, the bum rush, what do the special response guys in prisons do? the bum rush, on harder men than you or i will ever be. is it effective, yeah. overwhelming force pins the violent con to the ground. do you want to be on the ground? i don't think so. pain, you ever get get your acl tagged? you are f*****d! you can't walk, you can't talk, you are toast.

jeez, i was having such a good weekend. and yes my wife let me have the car.
:asian:

I wonder which words were mine?? Sublime or ridiculous? Hmm, well geez. Mebbe I don't know what I"m talking about because I haven't been in prison and don't really care to know what that's like first hand...as a guard or prisoner. But I do know mean streets, I do know (sometimes) what/how/why groups of guys will attack a single individual, the reasons are too many to inneumerate here... and redundant.
I've been dog-piled twice (once in highschool by the jocks from the football team and lost out badly, ...mainly because I was stupid and had a big mouth and no skills to back it up ) The second time, many years and several skills later, I came out fairly ahead, got cut here and there but not badly enough where I was incapacitated or distracted by screaming nerves to where more damage could've been done to me. Fight or flight, well, yeah, guess I was fighting to flight.
I didn't lay there like a two dollar bimbo and let them do whatever. There was blood and happily I can say not all of it was mine. I did what I could so I could get the heck out of dodge. I wrote from personal hands on experience.
While I'm not 100% sure what an ACL is I've been "tagged" in more places than I care to mention and yes I do know pain and I do know that under the right circumstances (mentally) pain can be over-ridden. And yeah bluenose, I do know (real) life ain't like the movies...
God helped me to know this all too well by allowing me to survive.