multiple opponent art

[Angus]

Originally posted by sweeper


as to the arguement that you should seek anything in a fight, I disagree, I think people should know their strengths, I'm not saying you should go blindly for a single tech no matter what and to the exclusion of everything else, I haven't seen anyone here say that you should chose an attack in exclusion of another, but if you have a prefered way of doing things you can set them up, it's probably instinctive, but there are junktions in fights whee you have a choice what way to go, if you move tards your strengths you should have an advantage (of course all things must be taken into consideration and grappling might not be great if you are getting flanked)

My point about not seeking something is that you shouldn't sit there and try to force your way into one move because it's very contrary to the idea of "flow", which I really feel is important to fighting effectively. Besides, if you're seeking one single move, your focus has gone from "survive" to "armbar", and I think that can be dangerous. It has NOTHING to do with going with one's general strengths; for example, I prefer to kick because my legs are stronger than anything else I have and most highly trained, but if I'm too close to kick I'm not going to push away until I'm far enough to get them in with strength. I'm going to knee, elbow, punch, grab, throw, or whatever I have to do to keep myself safe. If your specialty happens to be grappling, then break some fingers, arms, legs, whatever, but use what they give you, don't force them into getting one lock or break because it could be very dangerous. Do what you can with what you have; it's why we train to be well-rounded. I'd prefer to kick, but if I can't I'm not going to try to forcefully position him or myself to do it, I'm just going to use any technique I know based on what he and I are doing, how we're standing, and where the energy is going. Has nothing do to with strengths/weaknesses.

The only reason I'd be against the going for strength/weakness thing is if you're talking in specific techniques. Sure, my roundhouse is strong because of Muay Thai, but I'm not always in position to use it, so I'd use another kick instead. It's why we train multiple techniques, rather than 1 kick, 1 punch, etc. Having general strengths is ok, but focusing on trying to get one single technique is dangerous. Just IMO, though.

 

[knifeman.dk]

The short story i mentioned from The Probe was not a matter of hanging a person or system out or even discussing systems- it was more a matter of descriping how one on one is not the best for multiple attackers and how getting "all mad" can get your but saved.
Not to be in a certain situation etc. is a moral discussion - and a quite hard one too. I tell my students to lock themselves in their rooms and not to make any contacts at all- in this environment they should be safe!!!
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

 

[J-kid]

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers. All i know is i will take gun safty lessions at my JUDO and if someone is going after my girlfriend with a knife i will cap him. In self defense only, But i would warn him first and make him dance around like a monkey befor pistly whipping him then going . Now that i think about it i will proble not get a gun because its risky , Not to sure all depends i proble wouldnt wanna take a gun out in public anyhow. Your friend Judo-kid

 

[Angus]

Sounds like a terrible idea. He wants my money, so I'll shoot his ***. Come on, you know that probably isn't the smartest idea. Gun training is one thing, but carrying a gun around so you can shoot the first would-be attacker is, well, scary.

Besides, what happens if he takes your gun somehow?

 

[7starmantis]

I have taken the Texas Gun Safty course and am certified to carry a concealed handgun. I have bee ncertified for about 3 years, and I have never once carried it. I guess I waisted my money on it! I just don't feel that there are many situations where I would want to shoot and kill someone. See you have to understand that if you shoot someone and do not kill them, your going to jail. The use of deadly force is only for life saving situations, if you didn't have to kill the other person there was no need for you to shoot them. Then you have put peoples lifes at stake(people around the area, if a bullet was to hit on of them), and all that. Plus, even if you shoot someone in the right context, your still going to jail until they get it all sorted out and go to court most likely, so its pretty muhc a loose loose situation, and someone is going to loose their life. I'm just not ready to take on that responsibility.


7sm

 

[H@pkid0ist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers.

Dissagree, I know some people that are one of a few things. Either completly crazy, have the biggest marbles in the world, or are just plain stupid. Even with a gun you can count on getting approached. Also, if you carry a weapon and people know about it and they want to confront you then they may do it with a weapon as well. As far as numbers, if you train in multiple fighters, using the right style and techniques, you have a good chance. In my Hap ki Do dojang we train in up to 10 people defense. We learn what techniques are good in those situations, what are not, and how to move. Any more than say 8-10 people then techniques are prtty much the same. The biggest issue with multiple attackers is if they get smart and bum rush you all at once. As far as weapons, we have great weapon defense techniques.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I have taken the Texas Gun Safty course and am certified to carry a concealed handgun. I have bee ncertified for about 3 years, and I have never once carried it. I guess I waisted my money on it! I just don't feel that there are many situations where I would want to shoot and kill someone. See you have to understand that if you shoot someone and do not kill them, your going to jail. The use of deadly force is only for life saving situations, if you didn't have to kill the other person there was no need for you to shoot them. Then you have put peoples lifes at stake(people around the area, if a bullet was to hit on of them), and all that. Plus, even if you shoot someone in the right context, your still going to jail until they get it all sorted out and go to court most likely, so its pretty muhc a loose loose situation, and someone is going to loose their life. I'm just not ready to take on that responsibility.


7sm

Does the word "Luby's" give you a possible situation where you'd
need to shoot and kill someone? Would you be ready to take on
THAT responsibility? That's the whole reason the concealed
weapon law got passed in this state in the first place. Sorry to
sound like I'm dumping on you, I'm sincerely not bro. Just trying
to make the point that there's more than just mugger vs. you
scenarios.
:soapbox:

 

[7starmantis]

Well, in the great state of Texas, you can't shoot at someone like that. Just because you have a gun and can carry it doesn't make you a law enforcement officer. Shooting in a crowded place can land you in prison for manslaughter. This isn't the post to get into it, but that is the law, take the course, it really opens your eyes.

Would I have shot them if I had been in luby's at that time, probably, but then again, I hope I'm never faced with that situation. And the reason the gunlaw was created was to licsence guns that are being carried, not to allow you to protect everyone around you, that is the job of the police. Too many people walk around willing to draw their gun and shoot, that can create more problems as well.

Not to mention that you can't carry your gun in Luby's anyway. Any place that posts a sticker saying no guns, you can't carry in, any place that derives more thatn 50% of its money from the sale of alchohol, you can't carry in, (yes this includes Chilies, and TGI Fridays), and educational building, you can't carry in. Its really limited. It is setup to educate people carrying guns, not to allow people to carry guns.


7sm

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by knifeman.dk Not to be in a certain situation etc. is a moral discussion - and a quite hard one too. I tell my students to lock themselves in their rooms and not to make any contacts at all- in this environment they should be safe!!!
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

It's got nothing to do with morals....
It is just straight out self defense logic, if you aint where the whoopass is you aint gonna get whooped! I was trying to point out the difference between looking for trouble, and just plain getting caught up in trouble.
You could lock yourself in a room and never go outside, but you would miss out on all the good stuff, that's going on.
--Dave

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Well, in the great state of Texas, you can't shoot at someone like that. Just because you have a gun and can carry it doesn't make you a law enforcement officer. Shooting in a crowded place can land you in prison for manslaughter. This isn't the post to get into it, but that is the law, take the course, it really opens your eyes.

Would I have shot them if I had been in luby's at that time, probably, but then again, I hope I'm never faced with that situation. And the reason the gunlaw was created was to licsence guns that are being carried, not to allow you to protect everyone around you, that is the job of the police. Too many people walk around willing to draw their gun and shoot, that can create more problems as well.

Not to mention that you can't carry your gun in Luby's anyway. Any place that posts a sticker saying no guns, you can't carry in, any place that derives more thatn 50% of its money from the sale of alchohol, you can't carry in, (yes this includes Chilies, and TGI Fridays), and educational building, you can't carry in. Its really limited. It is setup to educate people carrying guns, not to allow people to carry guns.


7sm

I disagree. And to let you know, first off, Luby's doesn't sell
alcohol. Secondly, when this law was passed, Luby's posted a
sign on their doors saying that they welcome those legally
carrying a concealed weapon. I have yet to see a single Luby's
with said sticker on their doors. The guy killed over 20 people.
Had ONE person been there with a gun a lot of lives could have
been saved.

There's 2 stories that I'm aware of in this regard.
One lady was normally packing for her own personal protection,
didn't that day. She carried it so often that when the first shot
rang out, she she reached for her pistol in her purse, and THEN
remembered she didn't bring it with her that day. The other was
a peace officer, who wasn't allowed by his dept. to carry off duty
guns.

Funny, every news story that was going on at the time this came
up for a vote said "to allow people to carry concealed weapons".

Lastly, I work for Bexar County. There's peace officers in the floor
directly above me. I just called 3 of them. They're of the opinion
that if someone opens fire on a crowd of people, and you take
them out with a rifle/pistol/whatever, that you wouldn't even get
a ride in the backseat of a squad car, let alone end up in a trial.
But they did say .. dead men don't testify, so it's better in a
defense situation to kill, rather than injure, when firearms are
involved.

Peace

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers. All i know is i will take gun safty lessions at my JUDO and if someone is going after my girlfriend with a knife i will cap him. In self defense only, But i would warn him first and make him dance around like a monkey befor pistly whipping him then going . Now that i think about it i will proble not get a gun because its risky , Not to sure all depends i proble wouldnt wanna take a gun out in public anyhow. Your friend Judo-kid

That's ok for you guys in the US. Here in Australia we have some of the toughest gun ownership laws in the world. In some states of Australia you are not even allowed to own a handgun. We aren't allowed to carry knives in public. In fact all our weapons laws are tough.
I have a set of display katana, that are blunt, they are purely for display. I need a license to own them because they are a "class 2" weapon. In my garage I have a machete that I keep razor sharp, I don't need a license for it because it is not a weapon, it is a "tool".
The stupid part is that these laws only stop law abiding people from owning these weapons....
The bad guys still got guns!
--Dave

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kirk



I disagree. And to let you know, first off, Luby's doesn't sell
alcohol. Secondly, when this law was passed, Luby's posted a
sign on their doors saying that they welcome those legally
carrying a concealed weapon. I have yet to see a single Luby's
with said sticker on their doors. The guy killed over 20 people.
Had ONE person been there with a gun a lot of lives could have
been saved.

Lastly, I work for Bexar County. There's peace officers in the floor
directly above me. I just called 3 of them. They're of the opinion
that if someone opens fire on a crowd of people, and you take
them out with a rifle/pistol/whatever, that you wouldn't even get
a ride in the backseat of a squad car, let alone end up in a trial.
But they did say .. dead men don't testify, so it's better in a
defense situation to kill, rather than injure, when firearms are
involved.

Peace

Where I live, there are stickers on the luby's here that say no handguns. Maybe its s local thing, thats why I said that, I know luby's doesn't serve alchohol. We had a discussion about this in our gun class. I'm not saying in anyway that the guy shouldn't have been shot, I'm just saying we can't turn people into peace officers. Woudl I have used deadly force? Of course, would I have been happy about it? Of course NOT. Would I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that I took someone life? YES. As an ex-paramedic, I have seen death alot, adn it is never pretty, no matter what the individual has done. I think lives could have been saved, but the guy who killed them is the responsible one, not the people without handguns, we need to remember that.

Second, The Chief of Police in Chandler Texas, who happens to be by best frineds father in law, and J.B. Smith, the sheriff of Smith County, who happens to be my mother in laws boyfriend, both say, your going to jail when you shoot ANYONE, regardless. You wont stay there, but you may even spend the night there. Thats the things you have to think of when shooting someone. ITs pretty unnerving to hear you say its better to kill than injure. True, if you injur them then you probably didn't need to shoot them at all. I'm only trying to say that we should be a little more thoughtful about shooting people. Thats my only point, we should think about the afterthought.

JMHO

back to the topis here, it is a danger for someone to take the gun away, cause then your probably dead.


7sm

 

[Damian Mavis]

Sweeper, I think you misread my post on page 1... I wasn't against JKD methodology I was FOR it.

Bod...... where the frik you live man? BEIRUT!? You must live in a rough city or just plain unlucky.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[sweeper]

ok NM Mavis, but Bod lives in london UK.

judo kid, I know what you are talking about (with the standing arm bars), I used to take classes at your school about two years ago, I still think that's a strategicly bad idea. a wall behind you means you can't go back or to the sides and back, your mobility is cut in half. This means when you are flanked you are screwed, the only time I can see this being a good thing is if you get caught in the middle of a rioting mob.

Angus I agree with you for the most part, I thought you were interpreting other posts as saying that they would seek a given technique, I didn't tihnk that was the intent of the post. But as to the strengths thing, I think some times some techniques are so strong vs others being so week that you may chose one over the other, for example my 1,2 just sucks, I have never landed it period. so I use a 1,3,2 it works much much better, you might argue that this limits my veriety, well yeah it does but that's because in my case I'm 99% sure that firing a 1,3,2 will be more effective in 100% of situations than a 1,2,3 because my 1,2 is so freakin week. I train my 1,2 to get it better but I still have timming issues or something. in a situation like this where one technique vastly outshines another I can understand someone going for the one over and over (but of course that's not the only combination I use and if the other person is on the deffencive I could land a 1,2).

D.Cobb, I think you have to read some about that period of Vunak's life, I read an interview with him where he refered to that period as the "dark ages" because he got into bar fights alot, it sounded like he didn't get into it because he was trying to prove something or test something, he did it just because he hated the whole navy training thing so much he just didn't care but I realy can't speak on that with any authority, I have never met the man and maybe someone on this board who knows him could speak on it with a little more knowledge. But from my understanding it seemed less like a lack of responcibility than depresion.

 

[Bod]

Yep, I live in London. I know a chap from Beirut and you don't get mugged over there. Shot maybe, but not mugged. He tells of a time when he started letting off fireworks with his mate and the Israeli army responded with mortars. Oops!

You will notice the incidence of run ins with BGs decreasing with time. This is because I had a *very* sheltered upbringing, and when I finally left the home I was so naive as to be a danger to myself. It took a while to get streetwise.

Also I think that freedom to go wherever I want is more important than my safety. I avoid trouble spots, which is why I have never been involved in barroom violence, but I'll walk home at 2 in the morning if I so choose. My choice, so I am not complaining.

As a side note it became clear that some of the criminals in a group had more experience than others. I think that the vast majority of criminals learn their trade from others. If you do something unscripted it bothers them. Most times they bail out. Sometimes they panic and get nasty.

I think most of us do the same, the edge we have is we can consider and prepare for more eventualities, and we are doing it for survival and not to further our own scrounging existence.

Also I have realised from reading posts from various places around the world that the most common types of violence differ from locality to locality. I'd always suspected this, maybe we could go into more detail.

Does anyone wish to discuss/categorise the typical situations in their locality?

 

[J-kid]

You should stop by the gym some time.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Bod
Also I have realised from reading posts from various places around the world that the most common types of violence differ from locality to locality. I'd always suspected this, maybe we could go into more detail.

Does anyone wish to discuss/categorise the typical situations in their locality?

Wouldn't we need to start a new thread for this?
--Dave

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by vincefuess

Take out the easiest guy first. Break a knee, crush a larynx, gouge an eye, or break any bone that is available. That is one less guy to kick you when you are down (which is generally when the wusses come into play).

Excellent thoughts, Vince. People forget about the psychology of what is happening with multiple opponents. Hurting someone hard and fast (the weakest of the bunch) may change the tone of the rest involved..it is enough to end the confrontation there.

 

[sweeper]

judo kid, don't have time right now but I would get thrown around so easily, I quit for two reasons, one was my knees were killing me and the other was I seem to have no potential for judo ;-p

Bod, yeah in countries where guns are illegal or highly regulated there aren'tas many shootings because it's easyer to screen them out of the country entirly. In a country like the US where there are alot of places where guns have next to no limitations and no one searches you anywhere, it's easy to bring them into a city where theymay be illegal, that's the largest argument against making guns illegal on a local level over here.

I'm not sure of statistics but I think in washington state the majority of random attacks involve multiple attackers without guns, for a wial we had a problem with some gang initiations where people would be bludgeoned to death but that hasn't happened for a wial, and in seattle minor riots seem to be getting popular.. Personaly I blame the californians, but that's just me

And one question to close out the post.. Why does the systema logo thingy look like the bat signal?

 

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddie(s)
Neither Judo nor JJ are mutiple opponent arts. Granted Judo and some forns of JJ can be used as such, relying on them soely in a situation with more then one attacker is ill advised. However judo in combination with a strking art such as AKK can prove..how do you say, very unhealthy to your attackers.