Since I've taken both disciplines for about an equal amount of time, I'll happily give my viewpoint on why I switched from Karate to Bjj, and stayed there.
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The Gracie's did a lot of things right. Just as did Gichin Funakoshi. So I applaud both moves.
My main issue with Shotokan is simple; Its a modern martial art trapped in a traditional mind set. That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system.
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Yep, in a general nutshell, I concur with your simple summary. Shotokan has a number of problems and your overall depiction captures much of the flavor of those problems. Personally, I'll reiterate, I don't like Shotokan and would never practice Shotokan myself. However, for broader reasons, I think Shotokan fits with many in the masses and I would never hesitate to say Shotokan can really be effective if you dig into the principles behind it & of traditional karate (TMU).
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One of Bjj's greatest strengths (and frankly its biggest advantage over Judo) is its ability to adapt and absorb other styles into its core. This never destroys Bjj as a system, it makes the overall system better.
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I'm not versed in the grappling area the way the MT experts & authorities here, so I have to speak from principle alone. I think there is 2 ways to look @ cross training. On the one end of the spectrum is to engage in cross training a lot and gain & incorporate the knowledge & benefits inherent in other MA styles. At the other end of the spectrum is what I do. That is go beyond conventions and common practice of your primary style and dig deeper into the origins & transitions of that style. Such an approach, take Shotokan for instance, would address so many of the shortcomings or abandoned parts of the curriculum. It would focus on concepts, such as the 8 key concepts of Tang Soo Do (a Shotokan deriviative style) which then drive and power the effectiveness of the Shotokan style (a bit of cross-training reference to TSD there).
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In summary, cross training is not the panacea that so many make it. I strongly recommend cross training to expand one's understanding of their primary choosen art & what it's potential is. With reservations, such an approach would address a very large majority of the flaws & shortcomings in Shotokan AS PRACTICED COMMONLY, say certain of the 'modernization' of Shotokan that you speak of. IMO.
So if a Catch Wrestler comes into a Bjj school, and clowns the entire Bjj gym, the Bjj gym doesn't say that the Catch Wrestler was cheating, or doing something illegal, the Bjj gym would make the Catch Wrestler an instructor of some sort and have him teach the gym Catch Wrestling.
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The danger, however, in this approach, is that you lose or dilute or corrupt the essence of the art, say Judo, so that you end up with something that is not longer providing the strengths of traditional Judo art as intended by Jigoro Kano. Change = / = Innovation. Change for the better = innovation. Which character of change is the Catch Wrestler promoting??? $64 dollar question.
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When I started Bjj years ago, my school had a Judo and a wrestling instructor. So you could learn the fundamentals of Bjj, and then learn Judo or Wrestling depending on what your goals were. Bjj had its own takedowns, but learning Judo and Wrestling throws/takedowns simply made you better all around. I would have loved to have the option of taking Boxing or Muay Thai at my Shotokan school, but again due to its traditionalist trappings, that wasn't going to happen.
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Again, see my reply above. And of course your suggested approach may match your personal attributes. To me personally, the value of the presence of the other arts is the reality testing of me, as a Judo practitioner. Let me paint a K-Man-like word picture.
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I'm of average physique. Against the brute who just flattened Rolles Gracie @ KSW31 in May 2015, just a few days ago, I would be pressed to physically stop the opponent's (Mariusz Pudzianowski) forward momentum. I might get run over like a truck hit me. By a main PRINCIPLE of Judo, YIELDING TO FORCE rather than opposing force, i know have an intelligent strategy to apply. I am not just going to be able to manhandle such a brute like wrestling trains me to do. He's too big, heavy & strong. So the question to me is that Judo provides the best grappling strategy in such a case, now how to I implement that technically under Judo principles? K-man lectured me on this very same principle when he advocated Goju Ryu karate--here a perfect application.
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So in other words, If I do Judo really well, If I study, train, and absorb the lessons of Jigoro Kano to a high level of competence, what does Catch Wrestling do for me that really makes a difference? Pudzianowski can rag-doll me; doesn't work the other way around. This is the ultimate practical lesson of TMA, IMO.
That openness to different approaches is what makes Bjj so effective.
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I think the value was captured when the Gracie's designed BJJ. I personally think that's when the openess addressed some of the shortfall in thinking in say Judo, how it became to practiced sport-wise.[/quote]
It isn't trapped by the confines of tradition, its free to evolve and adapt to rapid changes of the MA landscape. When karate looks to evolve it attempts to create new moves from its katas instead of looking at approaches from competing styles. That's like saying we already have all the answers, so there's no need to incorporate new methods or approaches. Its backwards religious dogma at its finest.
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Let me say we could fall into a semantics pit here. I would not say the failure is in tradition. Looking at it from your perspective, I would be less absolute and say the complete failure is not in tradition. So you see how I succeed is embrace the totality of the issue, not fall prey to the existence of fault.
The real failure comes in the misinterpretation of tradition. That is how I would frame the global issue. This opens up a complicated & difficult proposition. For traditional karate, is the modern Shotokan interpretation accurate or is Okinawan Goju ryu better or is the Korean Tang Soo Do an improvement over say Shotokan? As problematic as this is, to get at the truth, one must face the global issue in this way. IMHO.
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This is why I personally abhor Shotokan, yet i can intellectually easily embrace, even recommend it.
Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did?
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That is an excellent point. Yet I have even less interest in doing what you say than in practicing Shotokan. At the same time, I can recommend to others what you advocate.
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This takes thinking and I guess by now it's plain I'm a strong thinker. The issue here to me is do we "fix" Shotokan by making it more Ian Abernathy-ized, or do we embrace what traditional Shotokan (and it's maxim's & concepts & principles) has to offer. The latter, IMO, is the best answer. It's not the only answer. the evolved styles you described are also an answer. IMO, Principles eclipse technical sophistication, when it comes to TMA. Not so much for athletics of Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling practice, etc.
Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.
The correct answer is not as you've stated, "...because of tradition;" it's because of
what tradition provides when trained true to the fundamental principles behind and encapsulated in those traditions.
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Of course this is a massive undertaking compared to the type of athletic training that say a proponent of same such as Matt Thorton advocates. Does Matt Thorton's approach work. Of course it does. Much of his athletic-speak is appealing; IMO doesn't help at all. On balance though, Matt Thorton, IMO, is a traditional athletic trainer with new-stylized marketing packaging. His training works because athletics work. TMA is a very large step up from athletics. There-in lies all the discussion and disagreement, as we see here @ MT. We TMA's are making a very larger, VERY LARGE step up from athletics.
[/quote]That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.[/QUOTE]
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NO. People, IMO, are presented with a watershed choice when engaging in martial arts. ONE is the Matt Thorton approach--ATHLETICS. And one good quality of Matt is that he makes no bones about his approach.
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TWO, is the TMA approach, and I use Gichin Funakosi the father of Shotokan as my example. Shotokan is a great learning TMA because it goes into specfics in the curriculum. For concept, my research of Tang Soo Do, provides a better spelling out of Canons, and certain principles. A little CROSS-REFERENCING , if you will. I think it was Hwang Kee, the founder. Or one could pick one or more of the Okinawan Masters of traditional karate. Or one could pick Ip Man or the Shaolin monks. The knowledge of the human potential captured in the teachings of these TMA originators is glacial, massive compared to the sport-based, physical athletic methods or styles.
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There's a link to the general terminology of Tang Soo Do in the Korean arts section of MT. That terminology, IMO describes in overall (and vague) terms, EXACTLY, the difference between TMA & MMA.
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And incidentally, I got called for my disfavor of Greg Jackson, the MMA coach--perhaps the most successful. I also took a look at Ray Longo who is highly credentialed as well as and very highly regarded (I think he trains Chris Weidman).
Longo is impressive. Certainly they deserve recognition for their success, particularly in business. But as Chris Parker would say, I believe I'm right when I hold what they do is over-rated compared to the reputation given TMA in the MMA arena.
