MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[Chrisoro]

Yes and no. You can find out where your strengths and weakness lie by testing yourself against other systems. It depends how far you want to take your training.

So if you have a stand up only style you may not necessarily have to cross train three different styles to compete in the ufc. You can test against other systems and modify techniques and tactics to compensate.

It is not always about winning. Sometimes it is about finding your limitations.

I think it makes the individual styles more solid that way.

Now yes you could always cross train. And if you want to compete at a decent level you should or do a dedicated mma style. But there are levels that people feel happy with exploring.

Well, I don't disagree with anything you said above, but as it still has very little to do with what I was talking about, I'll have to conclude that we are we're not in the same conversation.

 

[K-man]

There has been a few face palm moments. I actually fight people. So when you talk things like eye gouges for example. I have done them seen them and received them.

Anybody can teach self defence. That is not a credential on its own.

And in the past I have fought people too and more importantly, in self defence, not fought people. Of course none of that counts.

 

[drop bear]

And in the past I have fought people too and more importantly, in self defence, not fought people. Of course none of that counts.

I went to a karate class once.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know guys I actually regret posting the fox bagua article and I will likely not post another from his site.... this is so far off anything in that post it is ridiculous, frankly I am tempted to post a tirade of profanity to get the mods to lock this thing...... thanks for completely missing the point and going straight for the ego pissing contest

 

[drop bear]

You know guys I actually regret posting the fox bagua article and I will likely not post another from his site.... this is so far off anything in that post it is ridiculous, frankly I am tempted to post a tirade of profanity to get the mods to lock this thing...... thanks for completely missing the point and going straight for the ego pissing contest

So then. What is the point you are trying to make?

 

[K-man]

You know guys I actually regret posting the fox bagua article and I will likely not post another from his site.... this is so far off anything in that post it is ridiculous, frankly I am tempted to post a tirade of profanity to get the mods to lock this thing...... thanks for completely missing the point and going straight for the ego pissing contest

Xue, I've just re-read the artlcle to refresh my memory and it is an excellent one. The author addresses all the issues as if he has been reading our MT posts.

For example where have we heard this before ...
"Generally, the MMA supporters claim that if traditional arts were effective, they would be dominating in the cage fights and that most TMA guys are trapped inside a world of fantasy combat."

or this ...
"Historically, traditional arts had been used strictly for protection and many of the representatives of each lineage had to be sworn to secrecy to make sure that potential enemies would not gain advantage through the knowledge of their styles' techniques. Secrecy has been and still is a fundamental factor in terms of martial arts. Once you know what your opponent is capable of, you are able to form a strategy around his best movements. Without the element of surprise, many styles lose at least 60 percent of their effectiveness."

and this ...
"The true goal for the traditional fighter has always been survival not combat."

It pains me when we can't get past the "mine is better than yours" mentality but at present on MT that is the situation. Why we can't just celebrate that we are all training martial arts is beyond my comprehension. As the author goes on ...
"So instead of trying to convince one side that the other is better, you should understand we are actually all on the same path. MMA fighters wouldn't even exist without the traditional arts."

Xue, don't despair, I know that many of us are experiencing the same frustration.

 

[lklawson]

accept that the ring has rules and the street does not.

Umm... Yes, actually, "the street" really does usually have "rules." You just don't know what they are. And they may be variable depending on which street and who's in it.

The "street fights" that don't have rules are called "drive by shootings" and we'll send flowers to your widow while she laments that martial arts training did nothing to save you.

 

[lklawson]

Xue, I've just re-read the artlcle to refresh my memory and it is an excellent one. The author addresses all the issues as if he has been reading our MT posts.

For example where have we heard this before ...
"Generally, the MMA supporters claim that if traditional arts were effective, they would be dominating in the cage fights and that most TMA guys are trapped inside a world of fantasy combat."

I'm sorry, but, um... no. This mindset which he is referring to is a decade out of date. While there are still some who hold this, most "MMA supporters" don't start from that perspective any longer. Heck, a great GREAT many of them don't give a fat fiddler's fart about "TMA" and would give you a blank stare if you uttered the letters in their presence. Very many of them aren't highly interested in "Self Defense" or "Street Fighting" or whatever else that the author thinks they are. They're there to compete in a manly smackdown and if they need to do some "Self Defense" they slap leather and haul out the hog-leg.

or this ...
"Historically, traditional arts had been used strictly for protection

"Strictly?" Bullcrap. If that were true, none of them would end with "Do" or have Zen-anything or Omoto-etc. or any other Philosophy in them. There's plenty of evidence that many TMA's were intended to cover elements of exercise and general health. Plainly speaking, the author's claim here is over-reaching and easily refuted.

and many of the representatives of each lineage had to be sworn to secrecy to make sure that potential enemies would not gain advantage through the knowledge of their styles' techniques. Secrecy has been and still is a fundamental factor in terms of martial arts. Once you know what your opponent is capable of, you are able to form a strategy around his best movements. Without the element of surprise, many styles lose at least 60 percent of their effectiveness."

But the simple fact is that, in today's world of open-borders, open-concepts, and "open source," you simply cannot depend on secret techniques or secret training. If you can manage to keep and hold a secret, then, you can have an edge, just as with (as some claim) the Italians had with their super-secret Punta Lugna (Lunge Thrust) for the Rapier, yet that cat got out of the bad pretty darn quick. Once someone has seen it, today, everyone has seen it. No chance of keeping it a secret.

and this ...
"The true goal for the traditional fighter has always been survival not combat."

Again, over-reach. There have been many martial arts which had a purely sporting basis, and many which had sporting basis which were extended to "combat." Glima, 19th Century Boxing, and Back-Hold, for instance, are examples. There were arts which were intended to promote espirit de corps for the fighting man, such as Hutton's Great Stick method, and arts which grew from non-lethal training systems for other arts, such as Singlestick and Gatka. There are martial arts which grew to have strictly entertainment and performance roles, such as Tahtib. There are a vast number of martial arts permutations which are not covered in the author's over-reaching and over-narrow pronouncement.

It pains me when we can't get past the "mine is better than yours" mentality but at present on MT that is the situation. Why we can't just celebrate that we are all training martial arts is beyond my comprehension.

It pains me that the author has made so many false assumptions about the "other" side of his argument, and about martial arts in general. It pains me that the author is recycling an argument that reached its zenith in the 90's as if it's somehow new and insightful.

As the author goes on ...
"So instead of trying to convince one side that the other is better, you should understand we are actually all on the same path. MMA fighters wouldn't even exist without the traditional arts."

And it's still another set of bull-crap statements. We are NOT all on the same blasted path! I don't study Bowie Knife for "survival" or for "combat." I study it because it's FUN and because it's a part of my cultural heritage, and a martial arts part at that. I fully expect to never be in a Bowie Knife duel, but I approach my training with as much historic validity and realism as I can safely muster. How many kenjutsu exponents realistically expect to be in a sword duel? If they do, then, yes, they're probably living in a fantasy world. By the same token, if an outside observer seriously believes that they're living in a fantasy world because he thinks they really expect to in a sword duel, then it is he who is living in a fantasy world; one of foolish assumption. So, no, we ain't all on the same durn path. Further MMA may or may not exist without the traditional arts. Men have always been wanting to test themselves against each other for fun, bragging rights, money, and access to sex. "Sporting" events similar to MMA have existed in many other cultures which had no contact with Asian "TMA" (or even Asia), many of which predate anything we currently think of as TMA. So while the modern UFC and derivatives could be said to be the progeny of TMA (JuJutsu -> Judo -> BJJ), the claim is still of limited merit. Heck, at least three of the original UFC 1 competitors weren't using what we think of as TMA!

Seriously, this whole MMA vs TMA argument is so old that it's positively decrepit and the author has made so many mistaken base assumptions that it was inevitable that his conclusion would be tainted.

Now if he would have just wrote, "we all do different martial arts for different reasons; live and let live." then it'd be darn hard to argue with it. But that makes a boring blog post. The problem is, the topic is dated and his assumptions are poor so it's a boring blog post anyway. FAIL.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Xue Sheng]

So then. What is the point you are trying to make?

You have no idea how unsurprised I am at the fact you did not understand that

 

[drop bear]

You have no idea how unsurprised I am at the fact you did not understand that

Ok then. Here is my point. If you consider that mma and tma are basically trying to achieve the same thing then you have to consider that when we compare styles we are comparing apples and apples a lot more than people like to admit.

Which has been my personal experience in tma,rbsd and the sports styles I have done.

And so when "certain posters" (yes I can throw out the vague butt hurt as well) attempt to manufacture differences. Then they are just that. A manufactured difference.

So if you consider that a self defence guy does not need to be fit and conditioned. It is a manufactured difference.

When you consider that a martial artist does not want to win a mma fight any more than they want to survive a self defence. That is a manufactured difference.

And we have to be very careful when we make these distinctions.

 

[Spinedoc]

Here's the point though Drop Bear, people take MA for various reasons. I was a decent street fighter and had military training. I don't "need" to train martial arts to learn how to fight. I've been in many fights (mostly because I was an angry, smartmouthed kid). I don't really care about that part of it now, which is why MMA/UFC have little appeal to me. I am more interested in developing myself as a person. I care more about having fun, sweating my butt off, and learning how to relax than I care about actually fighting. I don't want to ever fight again. My life is out of control busy most of the time, but for 1.5 hours 3 times a week, I can shut off the rest of the world and focus on me. I find the techniques in Aikido/Iaido fascinating and they allow me to work on focused relaxation, while keeping my mind occupied due to the complexity and nuance.. They blend nicely with many of the zen concepts I find so interesting. Note...none of this has ANYTHING to do with beating someone. It's about spiritual and personal development and growth for me.

I need to work on beating myself. I could care less about opponents or fighting.

YMMV.

Mike

 

[drop bear]

Here's the point though Drop Bear, people take MA for various reasons. I was a decent street fighter and had military training. I don't "need" to train martial arts to learn how to fight. I've been in many fights (mostly because I was an angry, smartmouthed kid). I don't really care about that part of it now, which is why MMA/UFC have little appeal to me. I am more interested in developing myself as a person. I care more about having fun, sweating my butt off, and learning how to relax than I care about actually fighting. I don't want to ever fight again. My life is out of control busy most of the time, but for 1.5 hours 3 times a week, I can shut off the rest of the world and focus on me. I find the techniques in Aikido/Iaido fascinating and they allow me to work on focused relaxation, while keeping my mind occupied due to the complexity and nuance.. They blend nicely with many of the zen concepts I find so interesting. Note...none of this has ANYTHING to do with beating someone. It's about spiritual and personal development and growth for me.

I need to work on beating myself. I could care less about opponents or fighting.

YMMV.

Mike

Ok. And again we manufacture a difference it is a good thing that one can do akido,iado for fun and personal development but not be able to train mma for those outcomes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ok then. Here is my point. If you consider that mma and tma are basically trying to achieve the same thing then you have to consider that when we compare styles we are comparing apples and apples a lot more than people like to admit.

Which has been my personal experience in tma,rbsd and the sports styles I have done.

And so when "certain posters" (yes I can throw out the vague butt hurt as well) attempt to manufacture differences. Then they are just that. A manufactured difference.

So if you consider that a self defence guy does not need to be fit and conditioned. It is a manufactured difference.

When you consider that a martial artist does not want to win a mma fight any more than they want to survive a self defence. That is a manufactured difference.

And we have to be very careful when we make these distinctions.

so whoopy doopy you have rsbd and sport and tma.. big deal who cares you ain't all that special here on MT

Please I beg you...find a post where I am saying anything you are talking about... show me where I ever said MMA was different from, lessor than or greater than TMA.... . the fact you do not understand what the article, assuming you actually read it, is a whole other issue.... and for the record sparky I also have other training in my background I have no MMA back gourd I do have Japanese jujutsu, tkd, Sanshou, with a dash of JKD as well as TCMA as do many other here on MT...don't care about egos, butts or PC, care about martial arts, know what it use to be like know what some seem to want it to become and what it is becoming is all based on their fragile ego, money and the need to be the biggest baddest person around.

Interestingly enough I have had multiple conversations with "real" MMA people and they are all pretty nice people that are rather interested in what is best for them as it applies to winning and not a one of them has ever run down anther style.

Later junior

 

[drop bear]

so whoopy doopy you have rsbd and sport and tma.. big deal who cares you ain't all that special here on MT

Please I beg you...find a post where I am saying anything you are talking about... show me where I ever said MMA was different from, lessor than or greater than TMA.... . the fact you do not understand what the article, assuming you actually read it, is a whole other issue.... and for the record sparky I also have other training in my background I have no MMA back gourd I do have Japanese jujutsu, tkd, Sanshou, with a dash of JKD as well as TCMA as do many other here on MT...don't care about egos, butts or PC, care about martial arts, know what it use to be like know what some seem to want it to become and what it is becoming is all based on their fragile ego, money and the need to be the biggest baddest person around.

Interestingly enough I have had multiple conversations with "real" MMA people and they are all pretty nice people that are rather interested in what is best for them as it applies to winning and not a one of them has ever run down anther style.

Later junior

I was explaining my point in relation to the article as you still will not explain yours.

You are correct I cant recall you taking a position relating to the actual topic itself. Focusing more on your feelings towards the direction the thread was heading and how some people upset you.

It is unfortunate as I don't think it especially advances the discussion.

 

[Spinedoc]

Ok. And again we manufacture a difference it is a good thing that one can do akido,iado for fun and personal development but not be able to train mma for those outcomes.

Not at all. I never said that at all. I have a friend who trains BJJ and does not, and will not compete. Has no interest in it. But I chose aikido because of the difficulty in learning it, and because it is NON competitive. I have absolutely ZERO desire to compete in martial arts.....Now, if you want to talk about golf???? I might be up for 50 bucks a hole.

 

[drop bear]

Not at all. I never said that at all. I have a friend who trains BJJ and does not, and will not compete. Has no interest in it. But I chose aikido because of the difficulty in learning it, and because it is NON competitive. I have absolutely ZERO desire to compete in martial arts.....Now, if you want to talk about golf???? I might be up for 50 bucks a hole.

Lol. My golf sucks.

I accept an individual will train for their own personal reasons. And sometimes they are not even as clearly defined as yours.

But we certainly cant separate martial arts on a happiness scale.

 

[lklawson]

Ok then. Here is my point. If you consider that mma and tma are basically trying to achieve the same thing

Sez who?

Most MMA fighters I see these days aren't doing it so that they can win a "streetfight" against 20 Katana wielding Ninjas. They're doing it to compete, to test themselves against each other. The ones who are concerned about "Self Defense" go get a gun and/or other weapons & training for them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Ok. And again we manufacture a difference

"Manufacture"?!?!?! What the heck? It's not "manufactured" anything. It's a different reason. Not everyone paints a picture hoping to be Picasso. Some people just do it because they like to paint. <sheesh>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

But I chose aikido because of the difficulty in learning it, and because it is NON competitive.

Umm... Tomiki?

Peace favor you sword,
Kirk

 

[Spinedoc]

Sure, but I don't train Tomiki......I'm straight Aikikai.....