MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[ShotoNoob]

Because you are not a professional fighter.

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All I need is cold beer, SEE ABOVE...
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EDIT: Well the 2nd degree black-belt instructor who was working with me came over after I defeated the senior-belt kickboxer in the opening seconds of "round 1," Her corner woman input was "WOW."

 

[ShotoNoob]

Because you are not a professional fighter.

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Additional response: It's RollesGracie who needs a corner man, er a different corner man? Go help him out. At Twin Peaks, over a cold beer, pretty please....

 

[drop bear]

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Come on now, there's MT guys heaping all kinds of praise on kata, excuse me poomse over at the Recent TKD T on the Woman TKD Poomse Champion.....
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And you have MT guys all over the mental clarity concept, so how does one get it? Don't concede to "shotonoob....." I know, I burs-ted the Gracie BJJ over Striker bubble, now the video of Rolles getting "rolled" doesn't work....

There are MT guys still heaping praise on downward elbows for a double leg defence.

I have no issue with kata. I have an issue with the creationist theory of kata.

"god created kata perfect and we as lesser humans do not understand its true potential. Due to the slow decline of martial arts ability from master to student. So if the kata does not work it is the fault of the martial artist"

I prefer the Dawin model. "some guy created kata and he probably did not have all the answers when he did so. So as martial arts evolves through being subjected to adversity and diversity. The kata will eventually be found wanting. And will need to be trained in context."

I even have no issue with mental clarity. I just think you raise a simple process of achieving hard tasks diligently to some sort of cult mysticism.

And there is very little evidence of the shotonoob method working.

 

[drop bear]

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All I need is cold beer, SEE ABOVE...
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EDIT: Well the 2nd degree black-belt instructor who was working with me came over after I defeated the senior-belt kickboxer in the opening seconds of "round 1," Her corner woman input was "WOW."

Wow indeed.

I have no gauge on the quality of this kickboxer you defeated. What is his professional fight record.

 

[drop bear]

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Additional response: It's RollesGracie who needs a corner man, er a different corner man? Go help him out. At Twin Peaks, over a cold beer, pretty please....

Every professional fighter I know needs a corner man. Except you. And you don't fight. See the difference?

Now I don't fight either but I am not saying I do or do not need one. I would take the advice of those who do fight. And they say I need one.

 

[ShotoNoob]

There are MT guys still heaping praise on downward elbows for a double leg defence.

I have no issue with kata. I have an issue with the creationist theory of kata.

"god created kata perfect and we as lesser humans do not understand its true potential. Due to the slow decline of martial arts ability from master to student. So if the kata does not work it is the fault of the martial artist"

.
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You should bring Matt Thorton's buzzwords to really add "punch." Hey if kata doesn't work, we can always blame Gichin Funakoshi. Over a cold beer, pretty girl bring me one RIGHT AWAY.... I really got to get those Matt Thorton buzzwords down. Would be great resource for you.....

I prefer the Dawin model. "some guy created kata and he probably did not have all the answers when he did so. So as martial arts evolves through being subjected to adversity and diversity. The kata will eventually be found wanting. And will need to be trained in context."

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GESSE, I definitely thought bringing the teachings of Funakoshi in was too much to ask. You've trumped me by going to DARWIN. I surrender. I know some of you are professional writers and expert bloggers but can I switch tables? The TWin Peaks waitress over there has an inviting look about her. Mine thinks I'm a dork.

I even have no issue with mental clarity. I just think you raise a simple process of achieving hard tasks diligently to some sort of cult mysticism

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Thanks [Matt Thorton]. Martial arts is a simple process. I need a buzzword to go with my cold beer.

And there is very little evidence of the shotonoob method working.

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I would direct you to the TKD woman champion poomse T. ON way to Twin Peaks, of course.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Every professional fighter I know needs a corner man. Except you. And you don't fight. See the difference?

Yeah, unfortunately over the internet it's rhetoric.

Now I don't fight either but I am not saying I do or do not need one. I would take the advice of those who do fight. And they say I need one.

You'd go with convention. Hopefully that would benefit. Rolles Gracie failed to make it minute or so through Round 1. Hello corner man-- from unconscious land.
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Anyway, you can argue. Be nice to see what others have to compare about the Rolles Gracie lost vid, except now it's not functioning.....
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I'm going to be forced to go to Twin Peaks myself. Would you be my cornerman there with the waitress ladies I mean?. My karate dissertation is going to fall flat for sure. Matt Thorton would kick my butt @ Twin Peaks, for sure.
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EDIT: Enjoyed the banter. CHOW.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, unfortunately over the internet it's rhetoric.
You'd go with convention. Hopefully that would benefit. Rolles Gracie failed to make it minute or so through Round 1. Hello corner man-- from unconscious land.
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Anyway, you can argue. Be nice to see what others have to compare about the Rolles Gracie lost vid, except now it's not functioning.....
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I'm going to be forced to go to Twin Peaks myself. Would you be my cornerman there with the waitress ladies I mean?. My karate dissertation is going to fall flat for sure. Matt Thorton would kick my butt @ Twin Peaks, for sure.
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EDIT: Enjoyed the banter. CHOW.

Ok. Who fights at an elite level without corner men?

Once you have figured that out. We might be able to work out if you need one or not. Going off the experience of someone who has actually done it.

But convention would be the sensible course as neither of us are speaking from experience.

 

[K-man]

My main issue with Shotokan is simple; Its a modern martial art trapped in a traditional mind set. That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system.

Perhaps your main problem is that you were too young to understand when you started Shotokan and later you did not want to understand, as is the still the case.

I would also suspect that; "That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system", could be interpreted as style bashing.

I would have loved to have the option of taking Boxing or Muay Thai at my Shotokan school, but again due to its traditionalist trappings, that wasn't going to happen.

So what prevented you from cross training? Why would you expect a Shotokan school to start teaching other arts? Most people go to a Shotokan school to learn Shotokan karate. Did it ever occur to you that it was you, not the Shotokan karate, that was lacking?

That openness to different approaches is what makes Bjj so effective. It isn't trapped by the confines of tradition, its free to evolve and adapt to rapid changes of the MA landscape. When karate looks to evolve it attempts to create new moves from its katas instead of looking at approaches from competing styles. That's like saying we already have all the answers, so there's no need to incorporate new methods or approaches. Its backwards religious dogma at its finest.

Again you are demonstrating you total ignorance of kata. There is no changing of the kata, there is no creating new moves in a kata, but of course you know that and in another post you admitted to understanding, but here you are peddling more rubbish that is patently untrue because what you say suits your agenda. The kata is the kata. If you don't want to do learn kata, that's fine, just stop making up nonsense to try to paint kata in a poor light.

Karate may or may not need to incorporate new methods depending on the style and what it teaches, but either way it wouldn't be the kata that changes. It would be the curriculum.

Why not ditch the traditional kata, and remake them into kata more based around actually fighting similar to what Ashihara and Enshin karate did? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not utilize modern training methods found in boxing or other sports methods in order to improve the output and fighting ability of your students in less time? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition. Why not bring in full time instructors from other disciplines to teach your students alongside their karate training? Oh yeah that's right, because of tradition.

That's the difference between Bjj and Shotokan. Its also the difference between MMA and TMAs in general.

Did it ever occur to you that people study kata because they want to learn kata? Who has the knowledge to remake the kata? You? I wouldn't be able to and I have worked on kata and it's application intensively, for many years. But the bunkai of kata is based on actual fighting and anyone is free to develop the bunkai to suit their individual style of fighting. I would suggest you are in no position to address the differences between MMA and TMAs because you have no understanding of TMAs and have no interest in developing an understanding of TMAs.

Did it ever occur to you that people might want to learn karate for reasons other than fighting? Even then, why would anyone learning Shotokan want to do your sort of fighting? Surely if they wanted to do that they would join an MMA gym. Why would older people be at all interested in what you do? It has nothing at all to do with tradition. We are happy with what we do and are constantly pissed off by your constant put downs and disparaging remarks.

 

[Hanzou]

Perhaps your main problem is that you were too young to understand when you started Shotokan and later you did not want to understand, as is the still the case.

I would also suspect that; "That causes the entire system to be somewhat scatter-brained, and frankly saps away at its effectiveness as a martial system", could be interpreted as style bashing.

You don't even do Shotokan, so why do you care what I have to say about it?

So what prevented you from cross training?

My instructor discouraged it, and my parents wouldn't have been able to afford me taking multiple MAs.

Why would you expect a Shotokan school to start teaching other arts? Most people go to a Shotokan school to learn Shotokan karate. Did it ever occur to you that it was you, not the Shotokan karate, that was lacking?

Of course, for quite some time in fact. However once I started taking Judo classes, I realized I was being shortchanged by Shotokan, and that other arts simply had better methodologies.

Again you are demonstrating you total ignorance of kata. There is no changing of the kata, there is no creating new moves in a kata, but of course you know that and in another post you admitted to understanding, but here you are peddling more rubbish that is patently untrue because what you say suits your agenda. The kata is the kata. If you don't want to do learn kata, that's fine, just stop making up nonsense to try to paint kata in a poor light.

Karate may or may not need to incorporate new methods depending on the style and what it teaches, but either way it wouldn't be the kata that changes. It would be the curriculum.

The creators of Ashihara and Enshin karate changed or deleted Shotokan and Goju kata from their systems. That's what I'm talking about,?and frankly they should be applauded for it.

Did it ever occur to you that people study kata because they want to learn kata? Who has the knowledge to remake the kata? You? I wouldn't be able to and I have worked on kata and it's application intensively, for many years. But the bunkai of kata is based on actual fighting and anyone is free to develop the bunkai to suit their individual style of fighting. I would suggest you are in no position to address the differences between MMA and TMAs because you have no understanding of TMAs and have no interest in developing an understanding of TMAs.

See above.

I Did it ever occur to you that people might want to learn karate for reasons other than fighting? Even then, why would anyone learning Shotokan want to do your sort of fighting? Surely if they wanted to do that they would join an MMA gym. Why would older people be at all interested in what you do? It has nothing at all to do with tradition. We are happy with what we do and are constantly pissed off by your constant put downs and disparaging remarks.

Then be happy. I was simply giving my thoughts of the differences between Shotokan and Bjj. If you're offended by my viewpoint or opinion on my personal experiences, I would recommend you get a thicker skin.

 

[Sub Zero]

The ring is kind of the definition of a non compliant person trying to hit you in the face.

I mean if you wanted to find the best test of objectives,in this case face hitting, then a ring will supply the best puncher with the most desire to punch you.

 

[K-man]

You don't even do Shotokan, so why do you care what I have to say about it?

I care because you equated all karate with Shotokan. I care because a lot of good people train Shotokan and Shotokan is not the problem. You are the problem. I suspect you probably had a good instructor, but with your attitude it is no wonder you learned very little in the short time you trained it.

My instructor discouraged it, and my parents wouldn't have been able to afford me taking multiple MAs.

And you listened to your instructor? Cool, that must have been a first. FWIW, I have never heard of a decent instructor discouraging cross training, unless of course the student was struggling with the base style. Yep, that makes sense.

Of course, for quite some time in fact. However once I started taking Judo classes, I realized I was being shortchanged by Shotokan, and that other arts simply had better methodologies.

No. You weren't being shortchanged at all. You never learned what was available. The fact that you weren't suited to Shotokan is one thing. Dissing on Shotokan because you didn't understand it reflects on you. Everything is someone else's fault.

The creators of Ashihara and Enshin karate changed or deleted Shotokan and Goju kata from their systems. That's what I'm talking about,?and frankly they should be applauded for it.

Um, no! If my understanding is correct, both these styles derived from Kyokushin. Nothing to do with Goju or Shotokan.

See above.

I did. You were wrong.

Then be happy. I was simply giving my thoughts of the differences between Shotokan and Bjj. If you're offended by my viewpoint or opinion on my personal experiences, I would recommend you get a thicker skin.

I am not only offended by your viewpoint. I am constantly offended by your attitude. You have no respect for the practitioners of other styles and you are happy to misrepresent the facts to back your position. Nothing to do with thin skin.

 

[Hanzou]

I care because you equated all karate with Shotokan. I care because a lot of good people train Shotokan and Shotokan is not the problem. You are the problem. I suspect you probably had a good instructor, but with your attitude it is no wonder you learned very little in the short time you trained it.

Meh, the instructor was okay. The art itself was far too limited in scope.

And you listened to your instructor? Cool, that must have been a first. FWIW, I have never heard of a decent instructor discouraging cross training, unless of course the student was struggling with the base style. Yep, that makes sense.

Actually the instructor discouraged cross-training because he was afraid that his students would realize the weaknesses inherent in the style and go elsewhere. After my incident with the boxer, I was offered free classes to stay, since he needed instructors around my age range. I left anyway. There was no point in staying with a style that simply wasn't up to snuff.

No. You weren't being shortchanged at all. You never learned what was available. The fact that you weren't suited to Shotokan is one thing. Dissing on Shotokan because you didn't understand it reflects on you. Everything is someone else's fault.

I find this line of thinking fascinating coming from someone who also practices Aikido and Krav Maga on top of his cherished Goju Ryu training. Ironically, the only difference between me and you is that you decided to continue practicing karate, and I chose to leave.

Um, no! If my understanding is correct, both these styles derived from Kyokushin. Nothing to do with Goju or Shotokan.

Um, Kyokushin contains Shotokan and Goju katas.

Thanks.

I am not only offended by your viewpoint. I am constantly offended by your attitude. You have no respect for the practitioners of other styles and you are happy to misrepresent the facts to back your position. Nothing to do with thin skin.

On the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for practitioners of many styles. I even have respect for a several karate styles and their practitioners.

 

[lklawson]

That is not superior to punching people.

Both of them are the same blasted thing. Boxers have known about, and used, the strike to the vagus nerve since before Sir Thomas Parkyns wrote about it in 1713. This knowledge survived well into the 20th Century in boxing circles. I came across a "boxing for self defense" newpaper article from the '30s which described it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

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IMO, you've really thought through the subject and are much more familiar with MMA than I. Yet, in terms of coming to reasoned conclusions, here's where I'll step in by isolating out just one block of your post. I'll abstract out the particular sentence.
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I can't see why anyone would not agree with your first sentence. Perfectly stated. I took out the last sentence because I want to tie down the issue before I would move to the changed environment. To get at the "truth."

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By my thinking, what the success of the Gracies proved in early MMA has to be qualified by the nature of the sample of "traditional" martial artists that the Gracie's faced. Two questions: ONE, were those martial artists that labeled themselves "traditional," had they achieved the level of expertise in traditional martial arts that say an acknowledged expert here, K-MAN, has? IOW, what was the efficacy of their traditional martial arts training? OR--Were they just good kickboxers who took TMA lessons and got belts in a TMA style? TWO, were the early UFC matches where the Gracies had all this stupendous success, entirely legitimate or was there a good dose of promotion?
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In a sense, my second question (TWO) points to your first sentence where you describe the Octagon as an artificial environment. I bring one aspect of that artificiality which then affects any conclusions drawn from MMA stats.
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On question ONE, the idea is to bring in Tony D's perspective in his Judo post, and one that has been raised in other T.'s. In terms of labeling early UFC fighters (or any MMA competitor claiming to be TMA based), how much, to what degree had their training been determined by largely following conventional training for competition in that style, as opposed to the training presented across the entire spectrum of that TMA style's curriculum?
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If so-called TMA practitioners are neglecting a certain aspect of the curriculum as Tony D. described for Judo, then this calls into question the potency of Gracie BJJ, should Gracie BJJ actually go against those competently training the TMA curriculum (by Tony D., Judo) as it was proposed & designed by the originating Masters. A quality of training issue....

No one remembers Yukio Tani?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

One of Bjj's greatest strengths (and frankly its biggest advantage over Judo) is its ability to adapt and absorb other styles into its core. This never destroys Bjj as a system, it makes the overall system better. So if a Catch Wrestler comes into a Bjj school, and clowns the entire Bjj gym, the Bjj gym doesn't say that the Catch Wrestler was cheating, or doing something illegal, the Bjj gym would make the Catch Wrestler an instructor of some sort and have him teach the gym Catch Wrestling.

I lament the lack of basic history of Judo. Tani and Uyenishi mixed it up with CaCC Wrestlers all the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Xue Sheng]

No one remembers Yukio Tani?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yukio Tani

 

[Hanzou]

I lament the lack of basic history of Judo. Tani and Uyenishi mixed it up with CaCC Wrestlers all the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm talking about modern Judo, not Judo at the turn of the 20th century.

 

[K-man]

Meh, the instructor was okay. The art itself was far too limited in scope.

So you are admitting either it wasn't being taught to its full potential or you didn't understand it. If you were honest you might say that Shotokan didn't suit what you wanted to do. Why bag the style?

Actually the instructor discouraged cross-training because he was afraid that his students would realize the weaknesses inherent in the style and go elsewhere. After my incident with the boxer, I was offered free classes to stay, since he needed instructors around my age range. I left anyway. There was no point in staying with a style that simply wasn't up to snuff.

In that case I would suggest that that would indicate an instructor who was insecure in his own knowledge or ability. I would encourage my students to cross train. That way they can understand that what they are learning is a great system and they can tweak it to make it better for them. If they have a specific interest in ground fighting, I would have no problem with them cross training BJJ.

Unfortunately we all have students at some time who just aren't capable of learning.

I find this line of thinking fascinating coming from someone who also practices Aikido and Krav Maga on top of his cherished Goju Ryu training. Ironically, the only difference between me and you is that you decided to continue practicing karate, and I chose to leave.

Your choice to leave, your loss. What I found in Aikido was almost all in Goju, just I didn't know it. At the time I started Aikido I was still training the Japanese style. We were never taught the 'soft' part. Once I started the Okinawan Goju it was all there. I also studied Systema at that time, again because of the soft aspect. Basically the same principles are there and they have some very good strategies for fighting multiple attackers. You can apply those same principles to your karate.

As to Krav. I fell into Krav almost by accident, through some of my training partners, when the opportunity arose. Funny though, there is pretty much nothing in basic Krav that I don't teach to my karate guys. There are a limited number of ways to bend and break the human body. You can dress that up in different clothes but underneath much is the same.

Um, Kyokushin contains Shotokan and Goju katas.

Thanks.

Your welcome.

The Kyokushin guys study Kyokushin kata. Sure they were kata leaned by Oyama and taken from Goju and Shotokan but that is the end of it. If someone starts up a freestyle karate school without kata, that is their choice. In the instance you quoted those guys just wanted a full contact fighting style and didn't feel the need for kata, just like you. That doesn't invalidate kata.

On the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for practitioners of many styles. I even have respect for a several karate styles and their practitioners.

Obviously very few, if any of them, are here on MT.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I lament the lack of basic history of Judo. Tani and Uyenishi mixed it up with CaCC Wrestlers all the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

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Thanks for bringing in specific examples re Judo....