MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[drop bear]

MMA vs TMA???

To me the main difference between TMA and MMA is simply that this is 2015..

Come back in 50yrs then MMA will be subsumed under TMA and the argument will be not MMA vs TMA and but instead it will be "Which is best for my 'street work', ulnar-implanted bio-tazers or grafted retractable adamantium metatarsal blades?"

Hmm.. now that has got my attention. I think I will start having that debate with my self.. Jx

There is even a debate that goes against wolverine claws?

Your dreamin.

 

[Spinedoc]

Vibranium for the win!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

But what if the MMA guy was Bruce Banner and the Taiji guy was Superman?

 

[Flying Crane]

I am confused about the fitness. Is lack of fitness a self defence thing? Why would that be the case?

Don't pretend you think that's what he said. That's stupid, you know it, and you know that's not what he's saying.

 

[Steve]

But what if the MMA guy was Bruce Banner and the Taiji guy was Superman?

That's totally ridiculous. Complete fantasy. Hulk is marvel and superman is DC.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's totally ridiculous. Complete fantasy. Hulk is marvel and superman is DC.

DANG IT!!!! sorry

OK then, Banner is the MMA guy and Tony Stark Baguazhang guy

 

[Steve]

Don't pretend you think that's what he said. That's stupid, you know it, and you know that's not what he's saying.

While surely you're right that he wasn't asserting that lack of fitness is a self defense "thing," his actual point was confusing. It seemed to be a slightly confusing cause and effect argument about fitness level, athleticism and MMA vs TMA, related to how they prepare. The idea being that MMA guys intend to fight for three rounds, while TMA guys intend to fight no longer than 15-30 seconds.

He suggested that the mental approach is different. I personally agree, but would suggest that preparing to fight for only 15 to 30 seconds just sounds like a terrible idea when the stakes could be as high as life or death. Mental approach-wise, I do know that the approach in MMA is that the fight should never be harder than the training. The saying is, "Train hard; fight easy." And the mentality of gameness is that you will never give up. You presume your opponent has every advantage over you, and so the only thing you can control is preparation. Your opponent might have more technique, but he'll never outwork you. That's a level of mental toughness that's going to be hard to beat.

Whereas training with the idea that a fight should only last 15 to 30, if you do it right, sets you up to fail. What do you do if the fight goes on for a minute? 5 minutes? 10? Do you give up? Mentally, if the fight for your life is protracted, and you have only trained to fight for 30 seconds, I'd say you may already have given up.

He also seems to conflate a high degree of fitness and athleticism to MMAists but seems to sell TMA guys short. Personally, I've seen some kung fu guys who are just monsters (physically).

I think Drop Bear was being a little flippant, but he's reacting to a position that seems difficult to support.

So it seems the discussion, goes around and around, getting no where in particular.....if you ask yourselves a base question..."What are the key differences between the MMA fighter and how they prepare themselves for combat..and the way a TMA practitioner prepares for his or her confrontation...?" I might suggest the level of athleticism of the two people differs as one is prepring to fight for a set number of minutes and a set number of rounds, therefore a certain physical prowess is strived for so that one can achieve he task should knock out or submission not be achieved. I respect this physicality and athleticism, for im not that fit. There are few if any TMA practitioners, that would, in my opinion want a confrontation to go , in my opinion, longer than 15-30 seconds, the mental approach is different. I dont want to confuse issues, but if I read right it has been established, that boxers train for boxing, kickboxers for kickboxing, Judo for judo, each is optimized by louring the opponent into that realm where they are not comfortable. Those that wish to dominate across the art train in all viable arts.... each has its benefit for where it is required... accept that the ring has rules and the street does not.. self defense is not a gentlemans game.... A level of etiquette is desired in the ring....this can not be said for a life or death scenario. Argue amongst yourselves all you want.... they are two different animals.....

 

[Flying Crane]

While surely you're right that he wasn't asserting that lack of fitness is a self defense "thing," his actual point was confusing. It seemed to be a slightly confusing cause and effect argument about fitness level, athleticism and MMA vs TMA, related to how they prepare. The idea being that MMA guys intend to fight for three rounds, while TMA guys intend to fight no longer than 15-30 seconds.

He suggested that the mental approach is different. I personally agree, but would suggest that preparing to fight for only 15 to 30 seconds just sounds like a terrible idea when the stakes could be as high as life or death. Mental approach-wise, I do know that the approach in MMA is that the fight should never be harder than the training. The saying is, "Train hard; fight easy." And the mentality of gameness is that you will never give up.

Whereas training with the idea that a fight should only last 15 to 30, if you do it right, sets you up to fail. What do you do if the fight goes on for a minute? 5 minutes? 10? Do you give up? Mentally, if the fight for your life is protracted, and you have only trained to fight for 30 seconds, I'd say you may already have given up.

He also seems to conflate a high degree of fitness and athleticism to MMAists but seems to sell TMA guys short. Personally, I've seen some kung fu guys who are just monsters (physically).

I think Drop Bear was being a little flippant, but he's reacting to a position that seems difficult to support.

I'd say he was simply drawing a contrast between someone training to be an elite level competitor and a lay person training for personal self defense and who is not getting into a ring for several rounds. Obviously there is a huge difference there in conditioning levels (for the most part).

Drop bear trying to turn that into an assertion of lack of conditioning as an asset, that was plain stupid, and he knew it when he did it. That's the kind of deliberate nonsense spin that doesn't help any discussion.

 

[Steve]

I'd say he was simply drawing a contrast between someone training to be an elite level competitor and a lay person training for personal self defense and who is not getting into a ring for several rounds. Obviously there is a huge difference there in conditioning levels (for the most part).

Drop bear trying to turn that into an assertion of lack of conditioning as an asset, that was plain stupid, and he knew it when he did it. That's the kind of deliberate nonsense spin that doesn't help any discussion.

I think you're making some presumptions about tma training and the average person training in Mma.

I don't know about the elite vs lay person thing, but being fit is not unique to elite level Mma fighters. And can't we all agree that fitness is a good idea in general?

And the mentality of training is important, but at the very least this idea that training for a 30 second fight being a good thing is debatable.


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[drop bear]

Don't pretend you think that's what he said. That's stupid, you know it, and you know that's not what he's saying.

That is what he said. If it is stupid I cant help that. If he meant something different then he can add to what he said.

Or don't just spout street sport dogma at me and expect me to swallow it when it makes no sense.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you're making some presumptions about tma training and the average person training in Mma.

I don't know about the elite vs lay person thing, but being fit is not unique to elite level Mma fighters. And can't we all agree that fitness is a good idea in general?

And the mentality of training is important, but at the very least this idea that training for a 30 second fight being a good thing is debatable.


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Of course fitness is a good idea. Nobody ever said otherwise, except for drop bear's deliberate spin. Sure the other poster could have expressed himself better but that's no excuse to feed the spin.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is what he said. If it is stupid I cant help that. If he meant something different then he can add to what he said.

Or don't just spout street sport dogma at me and expect me to swallow it when it makes no sense.

Nope, that was deliberate spin, and you know it.

 

[drop bear]

But what if the MMA guy was Bruce Banner and the Taiji guy was Superman?

 

[drop bear]

Nope, that was deliberate spin, and you know it.

Correct he was using spin I logically pulled his idea apart. Because it isn't based on anything but The idea of tma vs mma or whatever he had in his head. Rather than any real solid preparation of what is supposed to be life or death self defence.

You cant just say stuff. It has to make sense.

 

[Spinedoc]

It's a different mentality for many of us. This is the crux of the MMA v TMA debate. It's like watching a husband and wife argue without taking the time to understand each other. My head Iaido Sensei came back to teach a few weeks ago (he retired to Belize a while ago) and he talked for a while about aiki principles and how they work in Iaido. He talked a lot about having no fear. Fear hinders your ability to fight, it makes you tense, it makes you want to try and overpower someone, it can incite rage, anger, etc. The only way to really fight is to relax completely, to be confident, but not cocky, to simply relax and let go of everything. Mushin. No past, no future, zen concepts….

 

[Chrisoro]

Yes you will. You will find out if your non grappling martial art will get you taken down and beat up. Outside the controlled environment.

And you still don't get my point. I am not arguing against crosstraining, grappling or MMA. What I am arguing against is using a lone martial art or combat sport's effectiveness in an MMA-setting, without any crosstraining, as the sole measure of that martial art's potential as a good self defense system. And the consesus seems to be that pure boxing can be pretty effective for self defense, despite being inadequate on it's own in an MMA setting.

If you want to work on the theory that nobody will take you down on the street. Then that is your risk. If you want to find out what is going to work and what isn't in a setting where you get to keep your wallet afterwards. Do mma.

Okay. Are you throwing out deliberate strawmen, or are you simply not reading (or understanding) what I am saying? Please reread my earlier posts before responding to this one, as you are arguing against a point I never made.

 

[Steve]

Of course fitness is a good idea. Nobody ever said otherwise, except for drop bear's deliberate spin. Sure the other poster could have expressed himself better but that's no excuse to feed the spin.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees, FC.

 

[K-man]

Okay. Are you throwing out deliberate strawmen, or are you simply not reading (or understanding) what I am saying? Please reread my earlier posts before responding to this one, as you are arguing against a point I never made.

I think on this one we all have agree that unless we are training MMA and actually testing in the ring against the top MMA fighters, our training is substandard, untested and will be, without doubt, totally useless on the street.

If you would like to post whatever training you do, I'm sure there will be those who can point out the glaring omissions and shortcomings in your training. Nothing, absolutely nothing compares with the training you get in MMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees, FC.

I actually believe that is what you are doing.

 

[Flying Crane]

And you still don't get my point. I am not arguing against crosstraining, grappling or MMA. What I am arguing against is using a lone martial art or combat sport's effectiveness in an MMA-setting, without any crosstraining, as the sole measure of that martial art's potential as a good self defense system. And the consesus seems to be that pure boxing can be pretty effective for self defense, despite being inadequate on it's own in an MMA setting.



Okay. Are you throwing out deliberate strawmen, or are you simply not reading (or understanding) what I am saying? Please reread my earlier posts before responding to this one, as you are arguing against a point I never made.

Drop bear is nothing but a spin doctor. That's what makes the discussion pointless and derails so many threads. He's not looking for an explanation or real information. He is just looking for something he can spin.