MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[drop bear]

For example, say I have a fifty year old professional woman come to me to learn self defence. For a start she is going to expect to learn how to defend herself if threatened or attacked. She doesn't want to learn to fight someone in the ring. If she did I would send her to one of my mates who trains people to fight in the ring. Sure we will pressure test her but in a more appropriate way for the training she is receiving.

I have not been factoring in personal choice. You can do as much or as little as you want. But the results will vary because of it.

If I don't practice knife fighting I am unlikely to be good at it.

 

[drop bear]

Not inherently

No real generalization can be made

Its like the guys that take Boxing for SD and never compete,

They could be better in the ring than the guys at the gym who are competing and have more talent, they're essentially working the same drills, sparring the same way, etc. but the setting and structure differ.

Whether its an official bout or not, its still hard contact and non compliant training,

The method is more important than the environment.

I wasn't entirely disagreeing with your point, but expanding on it.

Where I am going with this is you can go 100% and be the best guy in the room. But the quality of your training partners will keep you at a certain level.

Competition determines the best guy in the state or country. And in my experience they are generally better than your average sparring partner.

 

[lklawson]

I don't understand specifically the debate many "traditional" martial arts practice mixed forms - from striking, kicking, to grappling, weapons and more. Mine has everything. Is this UFC cage fighting MMA vs all others martial arts? Is it in the cage or on the street? What's being compared?

Yes. MMA is not "mixed martial arts" in the way you seem to understand it, that of "mixing" one "traditional" (usually "asian") martial art with techniques from another TMA.

MMA, "Mixed Martial Arts," is an umbrella term for fighting and training in the style for what you call "cage fighting" of which UFC is the most well known professional organization. However, there are other organizations and amateur clubs teaching in the same general style for the same general purpose, i.e.: "cage fighting."

This particular debate has been going on since Gracie put on his first televised set of matches, generally known as UFC1, in 1993 and reached a fevered pitch in the late 90's to early few years following 2000.

In other words, this particular debate has been going on for over two blasted decades!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Drose427]

Where I am going with this is you can go 100% and be the best guy in the room. But the quality of your training partners will keep you at a certain level.

Competition determines the best guy in the state or country. And in my experience they are generally better than your average sparring partner.

No, competition determine the best competitors in the area in that given competition.

I.e. one of the gyms in my area now has an MMA program taught by a pro fighter, but he is constantly out struck by the kick boxing and boxing guys there.

On the flip side, I don't compete in MMA or Kick boxing. But I train with these guys regularly and can outdo some of the guys doing fairly well at local events.

But at the I agree with sparring guys you're unfamiliar with, which seems to be the core of your point

My point was simply competition isn't the only way to get that,

 

[Hanzou]

From the The Fox Bagua Zhang Blog

If you think fighting involves silky pants and weapons from the 16th century, then yeah I would say you're trapped in a world of fantasy combat.

MMA added a dose of reality to the world of martial arts. We're all better off because of it.

 

[Drose427]

If you think fighting involves silky pants and weapons from the 16th century, then yeah I would say you're trapped in a world of fantasy combat.

MMA added a dose of reality to the world of martial arts. We're all better off because of it.

The only thing MMA really showed was the importance of cross training.

Even after the first couple, the Gracie's couldn't just grapple their way to victory and had to strike more.

Most of the fighters in early MMA were TMA guys in training in silky pants.

That only changed because people wanted to compete specifically for MMA, where things like weapons, SD, and forms don't translate as perfectly as a dedicated sport style

 

[Hanzou]

The only thing MMA really showed was the importance of cross training.

Even after the first couple, the Gracie's couldn't just grapple their way to victory and had to strike more.

Most of the fighters in early MMA were TMA guys in training in silky pants.

That only changed because people wanted to compete specifically for MMA, where things like weapons, SD, and forms don't translate as perfectly as a dedicated sport style

That's some interesting revisionist history you got going on there.

Here's the thing; If your style of choice doesn't work in a controlled environment, how is it supposed to work in an uncontrolled environment? What mitigating factor neuters your art in a cage, yet allows it to flourish on the street? The argument simply makes no sense whatsoever. What? You can't punch someone in the johnson in the ring, or bite a piece of skin off, but you can in the street, so that's how your ancient martial art from medieval Asia is practical for the modern world?

I was punching people in the junk and biting people in grade school. Is that what the end result of traditional martial arts entails? Fighting like a grade school child?

 

[crazydiamond]

Yes. MMA is not "mixed martial arts" in the way you seem to understand it, that of "mixing" one "traditional" (usually "asian") martial art with techniques from another TMA.

MMA, "Mixed Martial Arts," is an umbrella term for fighting and training in the style for what you call "cage fighting" of which UFC is the most well known professional organization. However, there are other organizations and amateur clubs teaching in the same general style for the same general purpose, i.e.: "cage fighting."

This particular debate has been going on since Gracie put on his first televised set of matches, generally known as UFC1, in 1993 and reached a fevered pitch in the late 90's to early few years following 2000.

In other words, this particular debate has been going on for over two blasted decades!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ok I think.

But my MA (or MMA?) includes BJJ and MT training - as does UFC training I believe. Maybe its a finer line..

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you think fighting involves silky pants and weapons from the 16th century, then yeah I would say you're trapped in a world of fantasy combat.

MMA added a dose of reality to the world of martial arts. We're all better off because of it.

Since he never even mentions anything as to what you just posted I can only assume you either didn't read it or didn't understand it or possibly skimmed it with a jaded eye and ran with it.....all I can say is you trying real hard to get a flame post started aren't you, but frankly your opinion on this matters little to me so please feel free to comment on this on the fox bagua page if you like....and have fun storming the castle

 

[Drose427]

That's some interesting revisionist history you got going on there.

Here's the thing; If your style of choice doesn't work in a controlled environment, how is it supposed to work in an uncontrolled environment? What mitigating factor neuters your art in a cage, yet allows it to flourish on the street? The argument simply makes no sense whatsoever. What? You can't punch someone in the johnson in the ring, or bite a piece of skin off, but you can in the street, so that's how your ancient martial art from medieval Asia is practical for the modern world?

I was punching people in the junk and biting people in grade school. Is that what the end result of traditional martial arts entails? Fighting like a grade school child?

Its true history when you look at their MMA records.

Renzo started losing around pride 10

Royce (the most successful) had a lot of matches labeled as draws, but in many of his later matches looked like completely different fights than his earlier ones.

Royler(or Rorion, the lesser known ones confuse me) in one of his sakuraba matches was so outclassed he started but scooting instead of standing and fighting because he couldnt strike with sakuraba and couldnt get him down.

actually HERES the thing,

It has worked in controlled environments. In MMA and Kickboxing. The guys who did have fighting style pretty distinct from MT guys, if you cant tell the difference youre simply ignorant.

Actually, fighting like a child was pretty successful in the early UFCs.

Hackney crotch shotted

Even Royce pulled hair and what not now and again when even the almighty BJJ failed.

 

[K-man]

Missed the maywether Pac man fight?

Yep. Not the slightest bit interested in it.

 

[Hanzou]

Its true history when you look at their MMA records.

Which wasn't your original point.

You originally said that the only thing MMA showed us was the importance of cross-training. Actually that's false. What MMA showed was the difference between fantasy martial arts, and real martial arts. In early MMA, we saw several traditional martial artists get embarrassed when they entered the octagon, and we witnessed an unassuming guy from Brazil choke out a variety of larger opponents. Those two things changed the martial arts landscape forever. I don't know what the individual fight records of the Gracies has to do with any of that.

actually HERES the thing,

It has worked in controlled environments. In MMA and Kickboxing. The guys who did have fighting style pretty distinct from MT guys, if you cant tell the difference youre simply ignorant.

So now we're going to say that kickboxing is a TMA now?

Interesting.

Actually, fighting like a child was pretty successful in the early UFCs.

That one clearly went over your head....

 

[Drose427]

Which wasn't your original point.

You originally said that the only thing MMA showed us was the importance of cross-training. Actually that's false. What MMA showed was the difference between fantasy martial arts, and real martial arts. In early MMA, we saw several traditional martial artists get embarrassed when they entered the octagon, and we witnessed an unassuming guy from Brazil choke out a variety of larger opponents. Those two things changed the martial arts landscape forever. I don't know what the individual fight records of the Gracies has to do with any of that.



So now we're going to say that kickboxing is a TMA now?

Interesting.



That one clearly went over your head....

Yup fantasy martial arts.....funny considering Ninjutsu
karate(various styles)
TKD
Savate
kenpo
Shaolin

All performed well at some point against other non grappling styles. Only got choked up against a style they didn't train for.

If that isn't the definition of the need for cross training idk what is...but whatever you say.

And that's not what I said at all in regards to kick boxing, but since youve never got any the points or explanations of How to properly train in a style that does forms, I'm gonna assume you're either not reading posts or lack comprehension skills.

 

[Hanzou]

Yup fantasy martial arts.....funny considering Ninjutsu
karate(various styles)
TKD
Savate
kenpo
Shaolin

All performed well at some point against other non grappling styles. Only got choked up against a style they didn't train for.

Which speaks volumes, since grappling and ground fighting are some of the oldest forms of martial arts in the world. They were simply neglected, and were neglected even by arts that contained them, such as Judo. MMA showed their value in a fighting context, and forced many TMAs to re-evaluate their curriculums and adopt ground fighting systems.

And that's not what I said at all in regards to kick boxing, but since youve never got any the points or explanations of How to properly train in a style that does forms, I'm gonna assume you're either not reading posts or lack comprehension skills.

You were using kickboxing as an example of a TMA that worked in a controlled/ring environment. The problem is that kickboxing isn't a TMA, and my earlier question remains unanswered.

 

[Drose427]

Which speaks volumes, since grappling and ground fighting are some of the oldest forms of martial arts in the world. They were simply neglected, and were neglected even by arts that contained them, such as Judo. MMA showed their value in a fighting context, and forced many TMAs to re-evaluate their curriculums and adopt ground fighting systems.



You were using kickboxing as an example of a TMA that worked in a controlled/ring environment. The problem is that kickboxing isn't a TMA, and my earlier question remains unanswered.

What TMA changed or re-evaluated their curriculum based on a competition?

Armbars and Chokes were a part of Judo Prior to that I believe

There were Ground Bunkai in TSD/TKD/Karate before that

Anyway, you just proved my point. It showed people the importance of Cross-Training and being well rounded

and no, I brought up Kickboxing as a competitive medium where Karate had flourished.

If you read full posts instead of scanning and nitpicking, youd learn something

 

[drop bear]

Yep. Not the slightest bit interested in it.

Pity. I was thinking of that fight when I gave the two on one defence advice. If you wanted to say you are training to avoid confrontation and counter fight. That was one of the best counter fighters in the world vs one of the best aggressive boxers.

But so you know mayweather won that fight going backwards. He was not penalized for avoiding conflict.

 

[VT_Vectis]

If you think fighting involves silky pants and weapons from the 16th century, then yeah I would say you're trapped in a world of fantasy combat.

MMA added a dose of reality to the world of martial arts. We're all better off because of it.

I think you have your own little fantasy going on here, mate.
I have respect for mma and i think the fighters are formidable, but reality? No, mate. Standing in an arena with a ref and crowd is no nearer to reality than your example of tma.

The introduction of things like "Animal Day" by Geoff Thompson and others like him gave a dose of reality to Martial Arts, not mma. This interview shows what I mean;

 

[drop bear]

I think you have your own little fantasy going on here, mate.
I have respect for mma and i think the fighters are formidable, but reality? No, mate. Standing in an arena with a ref and crowd is no nearer to reality than your example of tma.

The introduction of things like "Animal Day" by Geoff Thompson and others like him gave a dose of reality to Martial Arts, not mma. This interview shows what I mean;

Animal day is hardly that far removed from mma concept.

 

[Hanzou]

What TMA changed or re-evaluated their curriculum based on a competition?

etc.

Armbars and Chokes were a part of Judo Prior to that I believe

Sure, but ground fighting as a whole was neglected by Judo for decades in favor of throwing techniques. So much so that Judo black belts train in Bjj to round out their style.

There were Ground Bunkai in TSD/TKD/Karate before that

Yet amazingly I've yet to see pictures of TSD, TKD, or Karate stylists grappling on the ground prior to the 1990s. And of course, Bjj predates TSD, TKD, and Japanese karate anyway,

Anyway, you just proved my point. It showed people the importance of Cross-Training and being well rounded

After Bjj exponents dominated the first UFCs, certainly.

and no, I brought up Kickboxing as a competitive medium where Karate had flourished.

So are you saying that Kickboxing is the same as karate? Kickboxing doesn't look like any kata I can remember.

Animal day is hardly that far removed from mma concept.

Yeah, that looks pretty much like unrefined MMA.

 

[Tez3]

as does UFC training I believe

That will be MMA training, the UFC is a business, a company which holds MMA fight nights for profit. You have to train MMA elsewhere and hopefully have a good fight record to be under contract with them for fights and/or the television show TUF.