MMA VS Traditional Martial Arts - article from Fox Baguazhang

[Steve]

I think on this one we all have agree that unless we are training MMA and actually testing in the ring against the top MMA fighters, our training is substandard, untested and will be, without doubt, totally useless on the street.

If you would like to post whatever training you do, I'm sure there will be those who can point out the glaring omissions and shortcomings in your training. Nothing, absolutely nothing compares with the training you get in MMA.

Talk about spin doctors. FC, I thinking have another one on your hands.

 

[K-man]

Talk about spin doctors. FC, I thinking have another one on your hands.

By which I presume you mean me. I post on this forum as honestly and accurately as I can. Almost all is challenged by people who have never trained with me, never seen me nor been taught by the people who have taught me. I have been training longer than most of these guys have been alive and it is me who is spinning things. You might notice to that none of the guys here who do have experience in the styles I train have ever questioned my training. Why do you think that might be?

 

[drop bear]

And you still don't get my point. I am not arguing against crosstraining, grappling or MMA. What I am arguing against is using a lone martial art or combat sport's effectiveness in an MMA-setting, without any crosstraining, as the sole measure of that martial art's potential as a good self defense system. And the consesus seems to be that pure boxing can be pretty effective for self defense, despite being inadequate on it's own in an MMA setting.



Okay. Are you throwing out deliberate strawmen, or are you simply not reading (or understanding) what I am saying? Please reread my earlier posts before responding to this one, as you are arguing against a point I never made.

Yes and no. You can find out where your strengths and weakness lie by testing yourself against other systems. It depends how far you want to take your training.

So if you have a stand up only style you may not necessarily have to cross train three different styles to compete in the ufc. You can test against other systems and modify techniques and tactics to compensate.

It is not always about winning. Sometimes it is about finding your limitations.

I think it makes the individual styles more solid that way.

Now yes you could always cross train. And if you want to compete at a decent level you should or do a dedicated mma style. But there are levels that people feel happy with exploring.

 

[Steve]

By which I presume you mean me. I post on this forum as honestly and accurately as I can. Almost all is challenged by people who have never trained with me, never seen me nor been taught by the people who have taught me. I have been training longer than most of these guys have been alive and it is me who is spinning things. You might notice to that none of the guys here who do have experience in the styles I train have ever questioned my training. Why do you think that might be?

I don't any of that, and I'm not commenting in any way on your training. But you were also intentionally mischaracterizing drop bears position in an effort to be funny. That's exactly what FC was commenting on. He called it spin. And he rightly pointed out that it's not helpful.

 

[drop bear]

By which I presume you mean me. I post on this forum as honestly and accurately as I can. Almost all is challenged by people who have never trained with me, never seen me nor been taught by the people who have taught me. I have been training longer than most of these guys have been alive and it is me who is spinning things. You might notice to that none of the guys here who do have experience in the styles I train have ever questioned my training. Why do you think that might be?

Fundamental difference in training culture.

 

[K-man]

Fundamental difference in training culture.

And I can accept and agree with that.

 

[drop bear]

I don't any of that, and I'm not commenting in any way on your training. But you were also intentionally mischaracterizing drop bears position in an effort to be funny. That's exactly what FC was commenting on. He called it spin. And he rightly pointed out that it's not helpful.

And of course not playing the game and having an internet sook about how some responses are a bit difficult. Seems a bit precious as well.

 

[Steve]

What's a sook? Mis that an Australian thing?

 

[drop bear]

What's a sook? Mis that an Australian thing?

Yeah. Means Having a bit of a cry.

 

[Steve]

Yeah. Means Having a bit of a cry.

Ha. It's because I care too much. It makes me emotional.

 

[Steve]

By which I presume you mean me. I post on this forum as honestly and accurately as I can. Almost all is challenged by people who have never trained with me, never seen me nor been taught by the people who have taught me. I have been training longer than most of these guys have been alive and it is me who is spinning things. You might notice to that none of the guys here who do have experience in the styles I train have ever questioned my training. Why do you think that might be?

To answer the question, my guess is because they agree with yiu. It's a team dynamic thing. You tend to agree with people who agree with you. They're on your team,,saying things that make sense to you, and vice versa. Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's like the old saying, preaching to the choir.

For what's it's worth, Hanzou has experience with shotokan and doesn't agree with you.

 

[K-man]

To answer the question, my guess is because they agree with yiu. It's a team dynamic thing. You tend to agree with people who agree with you. They're on your team,,saying things that make sense to you, and vice versa. Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's like the old saying, preaching to the choir.

For what's it's worth, Hanzou has experience with shotokan and doesn't agree with you.

So if some one came on here who was Goju or Krav, or Aikido for that matter and was spouting BS, I would sit back and let them peddle rubbish? I don't think so. Yet you are happy to have someone with no knowledge or a beginners knowledge spout absolute crap about other styles. There are a lot of very experience practitioners on this forum and some that I would consider armchair heroes. Guess who I agree with?

Funny you should mention Hanzou. He learned basic Shotokan Karate as a junior, bags it as rubbish because he didn't learn anything useful, and that qualifies him to rubbish every other karate style. For what it's worth, Shotokan is not my favourite style for any number of reasons but it is probably the most popular style in the world and has many fantastic karateka and Shotokan is a great style. The fact that I train a different style of karate is my choice. If I wanted to actively compete I would train Goju Kai, Kyokushin or Shotokan. It depends on your interest. I switched to my Okinawan style to follow my interest in the application of the kata, or bunkai. In his early posts Hanzou was unaware there was even a difference between kata and bunkai. He constantly demonstrates he has no knowledge beyond the basic kihon. That is why I disagree with him when we are discussing more advanced concepts of bunkai, something that I have actively studied for years, even travelling overseas numerous times to train it with arguably the best exponent of it in the world.

So if we look at what generates the most angst on this forum it is MMA guys bagging the rest of us from an outside perspective. If I started rubbishing everything I didn't like in MMA or started posting video of people rolling and insisting it wasn't realistic or it was just a demonstration, how far would I get? Guys who know their stuff would be on me like a ton of bricks. Yet when the roles are reversed we have nothing but criticism levelled at the TMAs.

 

[drop bear]

So if some one came on here who was Goju or Krav, or Aikido for that matter and was spouting BS, I would sit back and let them peddle rubbish? I don't think so. Yet you are happy to have someone with no knowledge or a beginners knowledge spout absolute crap about other styles. There are a lot of very experience practitioners on this forum and some that I would consider armchair heroes. Guess who I agree with?

Funny you should mention Hanzou. He learned basic Shotokan Karate as a junior, bags it as rubbish because he didn't learn anything useful, and that qualifies him to rubbish every other karate style. For what it's worth, Shotokan is not my favourite style for any number of reasons but it is probably the most popular style in the world and has many fantastic karateka and Shotokan is a great style. The fact that I train a different style of karate is my choice. If I wanted to actively compete I would train Goju Kai, Kyokushin or Shotokan. It depends on your interest. I switched to my Okinawan style to follow my interest in the application of the kata, or bunkai. In his early posts Hanzou was unaware there was even a difference between kata and bunkai. He constantly demonstrates he has no knowledge beyond the basic kihon. That is why I disagree with him when we are discussing more advanced concepts of bunkai, something that I have actively studied for years, even travelling overseas numerous times to train it with arguably the best exponent of it in the world.

So if we look at what generates the most angst on this forum it is MMA guys bagging the rest of us from an outside perspective. If I started rubbishing everything I didn't like in MMA or started posting video of people rolling and insisting it wasn't realistic or it was just a demonstration, how far would I get? Guys who know their stuff would be on me like a ton of bricks. Yet when the roles are reversed we have nothing but criticism levelled at the TMAs.

And yet when I mention your incorrect assumptions on self defence based on your lack of experience. You get angst with that as well.

I assumed the angst was internal.

 

[K-man]

And yet when I mention your incorrect assumptions on self defence based on your lack of experience. You get angst with that as well.

I assumed the angst was internal.

OK, I'll bite. What are my incorrect assumptions on self defence and where is my lack of experience, seeing that I actually teach self defence, unlike yourself?

 

[Steve]

So if some one came on here who was Goju or Krav, or Aikido for that matter and was spouting BS, I would sit back and let them peddle rubbish? I don't think so. Yet you are happy to have someone with no knowledge or a beginners knowledge spout absolute crap about other styles. There are a lot of very experience practitioners on this forum and some that I would consider armchair heroes. Guess who I agree with?

Funny you should mention Hanzou. He learned basic Shotokan Karate as a junior, bags it as rubbish because he didn't learn anything useful, and that qualifies him to rubbish every other karate style. For what it's worth, Shotokan is not my favourite style for any number of reasons but it is probably the most popular style in the world and has many fantastic karateka and Shotokan is a great style. The fact that I train a different style of karate is my choice. If I wanted to actively compete I would train Goju Kai, Kyokushin or Shotokan. It depends on your interest. I switched to my Okinawan style to follow my interest in the application of the kata, or bunkai. In his early posts Hanzou was unaware there was even a difference between kata and bunkai. He constantly demonstrates he has no knowledge beyond the basic kihon. That is why I disagree with him when we are discussing more advanced concepts of bunkai, something that I have actively studied for years, even travelling overseas numerous times to train it with arguably the best exponent of it in the world.

So if we look at what generates the most angst on this forum it is MMA guys bagging the rest of us from an outside perspective. If I started rubbishing everything I didn't like in MMA or started posting video of people rolling and insisting it wasn't realistic or it was just a demonstration, how far would I get? Guys who know their stuff would be on me like a ton of bricks. Yet when the roles are reversed we have nothing but criticism levelled at the TMAs.

Well, now you're starting to qualify things. Hanzou is simpy an example of someone who trains in a style you train in, who doesn't agree wtih you. Not everyone agrees with you. The people who agree with you... well, they agree with you. And so you agree with them. It makes sense. But that doesn't mean your position is the only reasonable or correct one. And it doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. As I said, it's preaching to the choir combined with a healthy dose of confirmation bias. This isn't a good or bad thing. It's just a thing. We all do it. But it's a good idea to recognize it when you see it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Steve,

Hanzou trained in Shotokan. That is a far cry from what K-man does. Very different on many levels. As explained earlier he also trained in it as a junior which is different than if an adult trained in it. K-man is also an expert at what he does and one of our experts here at MartialTalk in Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Systema and Krav Maga. Hard to compare an expert in his field of experience to someone's experience trained when they were a teenager? (though of course that does not invalidate Hanzou's opinion on Shotokan)

Hanzou is now a BJJ practitioner and that is great. BJJ is awesome and a cornerstone movement of what I do. It has been incorporated around the world because of it's effectiveness. I enjoy Hanzou's view on BJJ and wish to hear a lot more of it. Can he have an opinion on Karate absolutely and specifically on his experience with Shotokan. Absolutely and it is good to hear it. But Shotokan is not all karate. There are distinct differences. In other words you just can't lump everything together and say with total authority one opinion on all the systems of Karate is true. You wouldn't even do that with BJJ because there are now differences between how some of the Gracie's are practicing and other BJJ exponents are practicing. (ie. combatives, street, sport, etc.) Plus exponents who have taken it even a slightly different way like Eddie Bravo. (ie. no gi top but the gi pants used a lot) Not everything can be summed up in distinct opinion. There are shades of Grey.

I want to also add that I enjoy Drop Bear's views particularly on mma and his work in the field of bouncing/doorman. He made a very succinct comment earlier in the thread out debates and recognized the old Muay Thai vs. Kickboxing debate from the 80's. (I remember that one well) Before that it was either Kung Fu vs. Karate or Karate vs. Judo, etc., etc. Twenty years from now it will be some thing else! This cycle is never ending.....

You already know I enjoy your view on BJJ and other things and that goes without saying!!!

Now with the above being said can we all get back to discussion on the topic and back to the original article! What we liked or did not like? What the author said that we disagreed with? We do not all have to agree but we can all hear each other's opinions on that topic!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just a thought on having the conditioning for a long fight - that's also useful in a self-defense situation if you have to run away before or after a physical confrontation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely Tony!!! Conditioning and maximizing your attributes can only help in a physical confrontation!

 

[drop bear]

OK, I'll bite. What are my incorrect assumptions on self defence and where is my lack of experience, seeing that I actually teach self defence, unlike yourself?

There has been a few face palm moments. I actually fight people. So when you talk things like eye gouges for example. I have done them seen them and received them.

Anybody can teach self defence. That is not a credential on its own.

 

[drop bear]

Just a thought on having the conditioning for a long fight - that's also useful in a self-defense situation if you have to run away before or after a physical confrontation.

There is a lot of cross over if people accept that self defence doesn't follow a bunch of rules. So it may last longer that the prescribed ten seconds and it may not be to the death.

You have to be a bit flexible to have a viable SD tool kit.

And strangely enough you have to be a bit flexible to have a sport tool kit as well. There is a lot of cross over if people actually look for it.