drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
And yet I can go to a school and learn mma without doing a separate art.
MMA and similar arts are not true Martial Arts?
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
And yet I can go to a school and learn mma without doing a separate art.
Not true, gyms teach kikcboxing/Muay Thai and BJJ/ Wrestling.
On the flipside, I can train in BJJ with my root style of TSD, train with contact and intensity and perform fairly well in MMA.
Actually, many gyms do have regular MMA classes that you can take without studying the individual arts separately.
Danny T
Senior Master
Yep
Know of several just MMA gyms. They teach some muay thai kicking, some boxing, some wrestling and some bjj. Not full curriculums just some aspects of them.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Greg Jackson gives out belts in mma.
I think there is a truth regarding "true" martial arts and but it is not by any means an immutable truth..
I mean like a new art is created.. the orthodoxy derides it as heretical.. perhaps if it sticks around and proves itself a useful system it is accepted and assimilated as part of that very MA orthodoxy (and then it in turn can criticise some subsequent new art that comes after it!!) Jx
Shai Hulud
Purple Belt
"Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices, which are practiced for a variety of reasons: self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, entertainment, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development."
Going by this simple cut-and-dry definition (c/o Wikipedia), MMA and similar arts (others like the Keysi Fighting Method, Krav Maga, Systema and Sambo, all hybrid schools close to my heart) would be classified as martial arts. While "MMA" may be an umbrella term for "a little bit of everything from other arts", in past years it has become somewhat codified (in terms of what works in the sport and what hasn't thus far) and tradition can certainly be singled out from its brief but immensely rich history as a competitive sport.
There are an endless number of reasons why people take up MA's. "Spiritual Development", while prominent in JMA's and CMA's, are not an absolute prerequisite for the practice of MA's in general. I initially took up Judo for health reasons and for my personal development. I remember attending those Russian Systema and Krav Maga seminars because at the time I was genuinely interested in Self-Defense following a bad experience I had with a significant other. Now I'm taking up Sambo because I find it and MMA highly therapeutic, and I like the feeling of hitting someone in the face, especially after they've hit me.
Going by this simple cut-and-dry definition (c/o Wikipedia), MMA and similar arts (others like the Keysi Fighting Method, Krav Maga, Systema and Sambo, all hybrid schools close to my heart) would be classified as martial arts. While "MMA" may be an umbrella term for "a little bit of everything from other arts", in past years it has become somewhat codified (in terms of what works in the sport and what hasn't thus far) and tradition can certainly be singled out from its brief but immensely rich history as a competitive sport.
There are an endless number of reasons why people take up MA's. "Spiritual Development", while prominent in JMA's and CMA's, are not an absolute prerequisite for the practice of MA's in general. I initially took up Judo for health reasons and for my personal development. I remember attending those Russian Systema and Krav Maga seminars because at the time I was genuinely interested in Self-Defense following a bad experience I had with a significant other. Now I'm taking up Sambo because I find it and MMA highly therapeutic, and I like the feeling of hitting someone in the face, especially after they've hit me.
And odds are everything he teaches comes from kickboxing and BJJ...many times it's not even changed fromain the original style the tech is from.
I have nothing against MMA, but I consider it a ruleset, not a Martial Art. You can cross train in a striking art and grappling art at schools completely unrelated to MMA, train with proper intensity and contact, learn the rules, and step into the cage and perform competitively.
The only thing you won't get that way is working the cage, which is fairly intuitive.
for nearly every other martial art, you can't do that.
A karate will almost never out box a boxer because of the boxers refinement of punching techniques
A boxer or Muay Thai guy, can't just transition into sport TKD, the rules and meta game are insanely different. While possiblr, it requires a lot of tweaking.
I can't consider something it's own MA when you can get nearly everything from it, with the exact same technique, from cross training 2 martial arts.
All martial arts took from something else but they changed things a good bit based on their opinion and methods. MMA doesn't do that, they use the exact same technique from whatever root styles their gym uses
In the cage, If I throw a distinct TKD punching/kicking combo, I'm doing TKD at that moment. If I use a MT clinch to throw MT knees while working for a takedown, at that moment I'm doing MT. If I submit my opponent with an omoplata, at that moment I'm doing BJJ.
That's the beauty of MMA. But all these things are moves from other martial arts, not from MMA. They're simply used in MMA competitions
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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I would even delete your last sentence if you are referring the professionally sanctioned MMA such as the UFC.
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Well its still a martial arts competition.......that was never my point.... but I don't consider it it's own, standalone, martial art
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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I get it. I see you have cross-trained boxing with your TSD-TKD. We have a 1st degree black-belt at our school who does the same. He has cleaned up in local tournaments. Yet interestingly enough, he says his karate will eclipse boxing at some point.
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I didn't answer but said to myself (traditional karate eclipses boxing now).
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Putting the thoughts from other forum posts together, I suppose you would take the position that Wado-ryu is not a legitimate traditional martial art? And what about the grappling self-defense moves I've seen in some of the Korean karate styles? Mixed or not?
Other TMAS are typically different. As I said in another post, the founders change techs based on their own reasons and methods. Our TSD comes from Okinawa karate, but the technique of some of our kicks is different, as well as stances, forms, etc. We have different methodologies.
In MMA, it's easy to point out what MA a fighter is using because the technique is rarely changed. Even from more of a staggered stance, a high knee raise chambered round house is still TKD or Karate and not Muay Thai. On the flipside, you can see very blatant Muay Thai kicks.
As I told drop bear, I can't consider something it's own Martial Art when someone can perform competitively , can get all the tools to do so, without ever training in an MMA gym.
Our self defense grappling comes from Hapkido\Okinawa Karate. While yes, our grappling isn't much different from our root styles, many of our forms and striking techs are.
You can't train in Kung fu or MMA, and walk into class and immediately understand what's going on With our forms, SD drills, language/History, Etc. Trying to compete in Kukki-TKD with MMA training or kung fu as your base won't work well either, even we as TSD has difficulty using their combos because of a difference in technique.
But MMA doesn't have specific techs or ways of doing anything. If you cross train with contact and intensity, you can perform competitively in MMA.
MMA is a rules to foster crosstraining and bringing TMAS together, when it has almost nothing to itself, and nearly every tech will be blatantly from a different style, I can't consider MMA it's own, Standalone martial art
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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I really agree, it's somewhat semantics. What you call 'martial' arts, I call 'traditional martial' arts. Your descriptions are all on point and you come across as a very knowledgeable instructor....
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Again, although boxing & wrestling are technically sports, they definitely qualify in my mind for martial arts because they are applicable for fighting, competitions which embody fighting activity, Are they the traditional base extending back to Okinawa as does your TSD-TKD. Most certainly boxing & wresting and the way most MT & BJJ is practiced---NOOOO.
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That's my view as a traditional karateka....
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Yeah, but the founders of TSD & TKD had to do essentially the same thing starting out. I think it's the MMA marketing hype element that drives that somehow if I add boxing + wrestling I get a more complete fighter. Just as you set out, how people practice for WTF competition does not define how effective your style is in actual fighting. MMA perception vs. TMA reality...
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ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Ah, in precise physical form correct. However IMO, the kung fu base has the same overall principles and is much stronger and much, much more sophisticated than TSD-TKD.............
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Such a great post I can't stop. You should definately hang out a shingle for TMA fighters who want to excel in MMA.. Hands down, IMO.
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What I differ on, want to point out, is take out Ronda Rousey's judo / grappling game, and she's a strong boxer. Uses fundamental boxing form, boxing training, boxing focus pad, bag work, etc. So specifically as a MMA STRIKER, RR is a BOXING stylist. She spars her butt off like boxers.
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Traditional karate has rules. Ours for sparring is light contact to body, no contact for head. No kicks below belt. No grappling or takedowns in competitive sparring.
We all have varying opinions and backgrounds on what words/terms mean what. But, to me, if somebody is in a gym training to punch, kick, grapple etc, at the very least, they're training in Martial fighting. I call it Martial Arts, not as a definitive term, just because that's what I call it. Hopefully, they're learning things other than fighting as well.
And therein lies the rub.
And therein lies the rub.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Right, ostensibly they are learning martial skills, to fight. How you actually express that skill is ART. Your art.
Depends on definition. Wado Ryu is recently developed but it is recognised as traditional because it is trained exactly as it's founder trained it.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I disagree completely. It has nothing to do with artistic expression. Martial art is an English term, used as a translation for various Asian terms. The Asian terms do not indicate the notion of artistic expression. The English term "martial arts" would be better termed martial methods or systems. Leave
The term "art" out of it completely.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Was a thought question....
