MMA and similar arts are not true Martial Arts?

[Jenna]

It's not almost religious, it is religious. He speaks of enjoying MMA as if it's a sin he's committed against O'Sensei. He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).

I give him credit for testing his Aikido though. Hopefully he goes the extra mile and fully cross trains in another style.

Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I give kudos to the guy for making the effort to test himself by doing some sparring with his karate friends, even if it was super-light, casual sparring.

That said, playing grappler vs striker with the striker not allowed to hit hard or even hit to the face* is just rigging the game in favor of the grappler too much to give him any kind of useful challenge or learning experience. All he had to do was walk forward and clinch. His sparring partners had no way to back him up. He didn't have to worry about distance control or proper timing on his entry because he wasn't worried about being hit. He also looked to be bigger than most of his sparring partners, which makes getting the takedown much easier.

If he wants to learn proper distance management and entry timing, then he should repeat the exercise, but allow his sparring partners to hit harder and punch to the head. (Or at least treat their strikes as if he respected them, instead of just walking up as if their strikes didn't exist.)

Judging from the sparring going on in the background, the school seems to be one where the sparring is mostly no-contact. He might get some better experience with sparring partners who are more used to contact.

*Wearing glasses while sparring? Really??

 

[Hanzou]

Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx

Both irk me fairly equally.

 

[Hanzou]

What the heck are "MMA" arts?

The core styles that tend to make up MMA; Muay Thai, Bjj, and Wrestling.

 

[Drose427]

The core styles that tend to make up MMA; Muay Thai, Bjj, and Wrestling.

Normal Martial Arts? I dont understand the point of giving them a separate label.

I mean youre basically saying "Mixed Martial Arts Arts"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The MMA arena is great for testing those who are training to compete. It does nothing for the rest of us.

What's MMA? You develop some MA skill. You then test your skill against other styles with some safe rule set. How far that you want to test your personal skill is all up to you. It has nothing to do with what style that you may train.

There will be a Sumo tournament here next month. My guys have never done any Sumo before. This will be their 1st time to test their skill in that format. Different rule set can test different kind of skill/ability in your training. IMO, that's the fun part of the MA training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).

A friend of mine when she did her Taiji form, her soul can separate away from her body, float in the sky, and look down on her own body. i assume that's spirit/soul enough.

Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the

- physical level,
- mental level,
- spiritual level.

After so many years of MA training, I'm still working on my "physical level". I have no interest/intention to get into the other 2 levels in the past. I don't think that I'll ever be in the future either.

 

[K-man]

Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the

- physical level,
- mental level,
- spiritual level.

After so many years of MA training, I'm still working on my "physical level". I have no interest/intention to get into the other 2 levels in the past. I don't think that I'll ever be in the future either.

You posted this quoting me?

"He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is)."

When did I say that?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You posted this quoting me?

"He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is)."

When did I say that?

He goes on to call us within the MMA arts "heathens" because we lack the spirit/soul that he has in his style (whatever that is).

Sorry, I was quoting Hanzou instead.

 

[K-man]

Sorry, I was quoting Hanzou instead.

Mate, where I come from that is a capital offence.

 

[Steve]

No. Karate is a generic term like MMA. When people say they study karate that is all the average person understands. But within karate there are different styles that are standardised. If I do Goju karate and travel to another country and train there at a Goju school, I will find the same training as at home. If I go to a Shotokan school, the training will be different. There will be things in common but I won't be able to perform a lot of their training, for example kata and bunkai.

A similar divide applies to generic Aikido. There are differences across the different styles.

MMA is a sport. Karate is a category of martial arts.

MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet. The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts. So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts. MMA is a sport.

 

[Flying Crane]

Both irk me fairly equally.

Do you then understand why your own fanatical, anti-anything-that-isn't-mma position irks others? Or did that escape you?

If you ever learn to give some respect, then you just might get some in return.

 

[Mephisto]

MMA is a sport. Karate is a category of martial arts.

MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet. The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts. So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts. MMA is a sport.

What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.

 

[Drose427]

What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.

While not boxing, I know it's extremely common for TKD\Karate guys to compete in Kickboxing. Both American and International. A while ago there was a Korean Sport TKD guy who was highly ranked there and decided to compete in K1. He won his title bout, but I didn't really follow after that.

Because boxing is so refined as a punching art, it's hard to see non boxers competing well there. Whereas MMA, you could cross train in BJJ and a striking art and train with contact, and could perform. Probably won't be a champ, but you've got your bases covered.

 

[drop bear]

Sounds fanatical I grant you.. just wondering is it his fanaticism or his anti-MMA position that irks you the more? Jx

Evangelists irk me. Ii must admit. Especially if the are using the platform that they are morally right because they ate morally superior.

 

[drop bear]

A friend of mine when she did her Taiji form, her soul can separate away from her body, float in the sky, and look down on her own body. i assume that's spirit/soul enough.

Someone said that MA involves with 3 levels of training, the

- physical level,
- mental level,
- spiritual level.

After so many years of MA training, I'm still working on my "physical level". I have no interest/intention to get into the other 2 levels in the past. I don't think that I'll ever be in the future either.

I think you achieve a mental and spiritual level from the fighting aspect. Otherwise why would they be linked to martial arts in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

MMA is a sport. Karate is a category of martial arts.

MMA is evolving into a martial art on its own, but I don't think it's there yet. The specific styles trained in order to compete in MMA are martial arts. So, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate (whatever style) and everything else are martial arts. MMA is a sport.

It is both. A sport and a martial art are just terms used to describe a thing. And not the thing itself.

You couldn't create a litmus test for martial arts that mma would not sneak into.

 

[drop bear]

What I'm curious about is other sports like boxing or Muay Thai don't prohibit stylists from other sports from competing correct? Theoretically couldn't any art that abides by the boxing ruleset compete? It's hard to imagine anyone without knowledge of boxing as an art would be able to be competitive. It seems eventually a ruleset becomes it's own art, fighters learn the optimal bread and butter techniques to be competitive forming a core style for the sport. Mma may provide more room for variation though due to the more permissive rulset and combination of multiple specialty systems.

Kick boxing was of course a mma of boxing karate and tkd.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hi! I find two aspects of your post hard to follow ShotoNoob. Firstly, so I understand what you mean by "traditional karate", from your previous posts I take it by this you mean karate equipped for and focusing on kumite, as in full contact, rather than just sport karate which is just point ("tippy tappy") karate with little real contact? Is that correct? If not please let me know what you mean by "traditional karate".

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That's a very good way to put some of the failings of how certain karate practitioners practice karate. You and many others here are looking at effect rather than cause. Since I don't like Shotokan karate as a style, I do like Shotokan karate for illustrating traditional karate principles. So short answer the way I would point you is to look at Gichin Funakosi and his disciples define the "Shotokan" karate.
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BTW: There other posters holding fast to TMA principles that are too looking at cause rather than effect as I am.

Secondly, it seems to be that you think aspects such as timing, distancing, balance, coordination, movement, reflexes has no place in traditional karate. And that these aspects are simply the physical/athletic approach and again, do not measure up to traditional karate. Is that what you are saying?

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Ah, your opening sentence is putting words in my mouth. I called a poster on that and got called myself. So I'm a bit gun shy. I am saying that physical training that produces athletic abilities including those named/ is not how Gichin Funakoshi defines traditional karate.

If so, can you please explain why these aspects and attributes do not apply to or have a place in either the training or application of traditional karate?

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Sorry, again, I think you are being a bit disingenuous here. In fact, I had this very discussion with the Master I am working with and he came to agree that my perspective on such attributes was the correctly more sophisticate-ly accurate. He did not frame the issue in the negative as you did.... that's why I am working with him and perhaps not some of the other seniors in my school.

I am struggling to see how that could be? Surely at some stage, no matter what level of focus you place on the "mental" side of training, to implement such you must engage the physical side of your body to perform these techniques? Even your "air punching" of which you speak highly of requires physical expression of the mental elements.

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Well, I think I have been criticized when in fact we karateka are really working toward the same ultimate principles. It's just a matter of understanding the right approach....
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Here's what I tell students (or instructors) that are willing to take input. Simply, IN TRADITIONAL KARATE, MENTAL DRIVES PHYSICAL. Just as you state, the physical expresses the action, but it is the mental capability that powers that physical expression. PERIOD.
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On the "air punching," I've got to consult with the WEB guru's here on how to cash in on such a downgraded traditional karate practice. Actually, I gleaned the true value of "air punching" from a sensei-level instructor who started in TKD, the moved on to cross-train in other TMAs. That's why I, for one reason, I say don't downplay TKD until you really look into it's traditional curriculum.

I thought it would then follow that if your physical expression of such does not contain and have an appreciation of balance, movement and coordination, the movements will be little more than a shambles. And if you are seeking to apply these movements effectively against another person attacking you, surely reflexes, timing and distancing (and thus training in, studying and appreciating such) is crucial to ensuring your success?

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I appreciate the depth of the talent here, including the RBD members. Yet the discussion continues to veer off course towards you having me say that the physical somehow not important.... It's not that what you say is not relevant, it's that it's not competent. Where you say "reflexes," I say "KIME." KIME is a qualitative term of traditional karate that Gichin Funakoshi (as well as Okinawan Masters hold the same or similar concept(s), as well as TKD, as well as other styles of Japanese karate, as well as the Japanese Jujitsu's, etc.
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It's not that the Okinawan Karate's emphasize "JUTSU," ie. rough tough fighters; and the Japanese karate's emphasize "DO," where the latter ultimately some degenerate into "tippy tappy" karate flower children. It's what drives "DO" that powers "JUTSU." the mind.... That's the huge divide over sport-based fighting.

 

[ShotoNoob]

It's not that the Okinawan Karate's emphasize "JUTSU," ie. rough tough fighters; and the Japanese karate's emphasize "DO," where the latter ultimately some degenerate into "tippy tappy" karate flower children. It's what drives "DO" that powers "JUTSU." the mind.... That's the huge divide over sport-based fighting.

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I'm so brilliant, I'll quote myself. Why I'm tongue-in-cheek is that I got beat up here for saying I don't need a corner man. Here's a perfect example of what I'm driving at. It's an MMA scenario that was a UFC YT vid. Basically a fight recap. A physically smaller opponent is getting beat up pretty bad by a larger, more aggressive opponent. Both are of course the same broad weight class.
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Buzzer sounds to end the round. Smaller opponent heads back to corner, at a loss. Corner man / Coach supportive-ly counsels smaller opponent, "Hey, you're getting killed in there! You've got to be more aggressive. You've got to focus. Hit him and hit hard. Now go in there and knock him out... you can do it! Go for the KO!
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Smaller opponent goes back in. Bigger opponent dominates and shortly smaller opponent gets KO'd.
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The KIME has to be in you. The expression of KIME can only come from you. KIME can't come from a corner man. Either you have sufficient KIME to defeat the physically overwhelming opponent or you don't. The Japanese karate-do base gives you KIME. the Okinawan karate-jutsu gives you KIME. Traditional TKD gives you KIME.
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MMA gives you reflexes. KIME beats reflexes once KIME is sufficiently developed. Is it a guarantee, NO. Nothing is guaranteed. You the karateka must develop the KIME inside to make it happen. It's up to you.