Misuse of Titles, and Good Ol Boy Rankings

[arnisador]

Just a question, how many levels of belt rankings are truly necessary? It seems to me that the constant expansion of rank structures has more to do with "oneupmanship" than with organization. Arent some of these Bujinkan orgs up to some extreme levels now? You have student ranks, then instructors, than someone who administers multiple instructors. I would think that instructors would need a basic, intermediate, advanced level. And the person overseeing multiple instructors would only need one rank. Over them all could be the head of the system.

I like your system, but remember that the 10 degrees of black belt in use now is still essentially the same as the original system developed for Judo by Jigaro Kano. It hasn't crept in over the years--it was always there. We have the overly organized Japanese mindset to blame! It's been a very successful meme, though.

 

[The Master]

The use of titles is a recent development, in the past there were merely the teacher and the learners. Commercialisation requires a hierarchy however to track casual dabblers in the fighting arts. True understanding of the higher leads to an enlightened self, one that needs no long array of credits to satisfy the ego. Those who do list such an exhaustive recounting of awards, titles and merrits, tend towards the unenlightened, and those who merely collect them, towards the cronically subnormal.

 

[arnisador]

The use of titles is a recent development, in the past there were merely the teacher and the learners.

More to the point, I'd say that the proliferation of titles is a relatively recent development. Now everyone needs to have one. Underbelts in the commercial TKD school near me have all sorts of titles--"Junior Leadership Assistant" and stuff like that. It's nuts!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What, you mean it's not normal for everyone to have 45 titles at age 25?

 

[arnisador]

Only if you're the world cornhole champion and have won first place in 45 different competitions.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Would that be in a real fed, or the one you (generic you) yourself run, and only compete against your friends?

 

[Kreth]

What, you mean it's not normal for everyone to have 45 titles at age 25?

Or even 25 titles at age 45... :lol:

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

1. Don't truly understand the concept of the title of "Soke", but from what I can gather, if this is received in a non-traditional format, then why hang on to the traditional name?

2. Again, I don't truly understand how a teacher can be promoted up in rank by his/her students. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it doesn't make sense to me. If you are teaching students a martial art, any martial art, it is simply understood that you have more knowledge of the art than your students. That is why they are learning the martial art from you, the teacher. How, then, can a student or group of students who have less understanding of the martial art than you (which should be the definition of "student") promote you higher than you are in the art?

3. Strongly disagree with this. It angers me to see people claim 5th dan in TKD that have never been to a formal class for TKD...even if they did put their time in to earn a blackbelt in Kyukushin Karate. If they didn't train in the specific art, they don't hold valid rank in that art.

4. Don't see an issue with this....mostly because a student can "test" for a rank without knowing they are testing. Often, I've seen students earn rank because of an acheivement in direct relation to the art that they're studying...i.e., I saw on TUF from a previous week that Frank Mir earned his blackbelt in BJJ by submitting Tim Sylvia...no formal test involved here, just a demonstration that he knew the material well enough to execute at a blackbelt level.

5. Doesn't make sense for someone to earn a rank from someone else who doesn't know your core art. I can't go judge a BJJ testing. I wouldnt' want anyone from BJJ judging my testing. I don't even like being judged on my form from someone who isn't in TKD...they don't know the specifics of the art, which is crucial in judging a testing.

 

[Kwanjang]

In our town we had two 'taekwondo' school owners who taught american free style TKD- OK, no problem. However, a guy in St. Louis promoted- one to 6th degree and the other to 7th degree The problem, to me, was the guy from St. Louis who promoted them was a Gojo Ryu Instructor.
I can only speak for myself. That ain't right!

My whole martial art life I've been accountable to an instructor who out ranked me and have been tested in front of formal testing panels by seniors masters of the association I was a member of. I have been fortunate to have tested in front of some notable Korean Grandmasters as well.

On the title thing: When I was young I would look at some of the Masters, I was in awe of most of them. They personafied, at least to me, what it was to be a 'master' of a martial art. I think my current GM exemplifies that title- by his actions.

Now that I have attained the honor and priveledge to have the title- master, it only means I am a dedicated student, (a master student if you will) And I have learned how to serve. Serving is important!

There is NO way I would accept rank from someone in another style- if I haven't studied with them.

By the way niether of these two gentleman no longer have schools. Funny how that works out.

 

[James Kovacich]

"Soke board" titles and identifications are worth only what the group making them is worth... It seems like too many of these are "authentification mills" that will happily certify whatever so long as your check clears. But that doesn't mean all of them are... Though I don't know why you would want a Japanese title if you're not in a Japanese art...

Promotion by students is a different matter. If the students identify you as grand master, chief instructor, or whatever... who better to judge that? And sometimes it is appropriate for the students to recognize the rank of the chief instructor... especially if there's no one else to do it.

I've posted my view on rank in styles you haven't trained... It's silly.

Promotion without a formal test? Who cares? I didn't have a formal test until black belt; for many years, we didn't have formal tests for advancement as a black belt. Now we do... Does that mean that someone promoted a year before the change is less valid than someone a year after? In the end, there is no objective ranking in the martial arts. Rank only has meaning within the ranking entity. A black belt in one style may or may not have equal knowledge to a black belt in a different style...

Testing in front of a board of people not from your style? That's a different issue. I could see close systems helping each other out this way (maybe Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do or several of the Japanese styles that share many of the same forms with each other) if there aren't sufficient people available to test from that style that can be gathered in a reasonable manner. Especially for under belt testing. But not something like a Chinese stylist evaluating a Japanese stylist.

There is a variant on that which I don't have a problem with. That's simply inviting a respected member of another style to sit with the testing panel, and even offer opinions -- but the actual promotion and evaluation is from members of that style. For example, I have some acquaintances in Isshinryu Karate; if they invited me to sit with their grading panel, I'd be honored. But I wouldn't want to even try to say whether that person is qualified to advance... That's for their school/graders to decide. I'm just lending "weight" or "presence."

Good post. My students are tested daily, they just don't know it. Generally they are promoted when I feel they are ready and that is much longer than that we see the "schools accross town."

I can tell you a formal test for black belt after a couple years of training dosen't carry much weight versus a student training for a couple of years and his instructor promoting him to the rank he truly belongs.

In my current instructors organization, which is a mixed style organization, we sit in on gradings but the students had already been tested and promoted by their instructor and it is actually a second test that we sit on. So where is the wrong? There isn't.

 

[James Kovacich]

I've never heard of American Freestyle TKD but I can tell by the name that it is not tradititional and it is someones creation. So it would fall under it's own guidelines. As far as TKD goes with all of the styles obviously not linked to the Kukkiwon. Korea probably does not recognize most of the Americas TKD. So why does it matter what they do? By their name, they obviously are not claiming to be pure like so many others think they are.

Americas arts walk their own path. Most often differant paths but paths none-the-less. Even the earliest instructors here in California were not Grandmasters yet today they mostly all claim it, many without connections to their systems roots. How is that any better?

 

[Cruentus]

Fine; I'll weigh in...

The hilarity in these discussions are the constant trying to qualify/quantify martial arts credentials when there is no real standard that exists with any consistency to begin with.

I've said this before many moons ago, and I'll stand by my statement. It is not the credential that matters, but the respect of the person behind it. I have met people with no paper credentials at all who I have gladly bettered my combat skills from, and of whom I would gladly call "teacher." I have met people with a lot of credentials obtained from many different sources (some that certain people might consider questionable), yet I would stand behind them on any given day. And there are those with many high credentials that I would gladly tell to kiss my *** (it's happened before, and I am sure it'll happen again).

Some feel the need to continually obtain credentials and certs (and they may need too if they make their living from the martial arts), and some don't. Neither behavior is bad by itself, in my opinion.

My decision of behavior towards an instructor (or anyone) has little to do with their credentials; it has to do with WHO they are. Ultimately, that is all that really matters, isn't it?

C.

 

[Kreth]

The IT world is similar. Some of the best I've worked with have no credentials whatsoever, just a decade or two of practical experience. On the other hand you have trade schools (and even some colleges) churning out paper MCSEs and CCNAs that have no idea what the hell they're doing in a production environment. "What do you mean we can't take the mail server down for a firmware update at noon?" :idunno:

 

[punisher73]

Who really cares? Rank is only an indicator of that person's skill/knowledge within that school or organization.

Okinawans didn't have ranks, those weren't added until karate was taken to Japan. Ranking's from martial arts came from games/sports anyways as a means to rate competitors.

It all had to start somewhere. Every art out there had to have someone "promote" themself at some point to establish guidelines. Miyagi didn't hand out black belt certificates, so how is Morio Higoanna a 10th Dan in his style? Ueshiba didn't have rank, so how could he spot promote Koichi Tohei to 5th dan before he came to the US to spread aikido? How did Tatsuo obtain 10th dan and promote others in Isshinryu when he never got a rank in Goju-Ryu and didn't have that rank in Shorin-Ryu? How did William Chow get 10th dan and promote people to 5th Dan in his style? How did Ed Parker get 10th dan when he only got a blackbelt in Chow's style before creating his own style of Kenpo?

My point isn't to badmouth the styles and people listed, it just shows that this has always been around and will continue to be so. It is unfortunate that many people feel the need to jump from organization to organization trying to inflate their rank and stroke their ego.