Masaaki Hatsumi

[Bujingodai]

I paid $350 for my Shodan. At the last tai kai I saw it was about 500 CDN for godan test. But that will vary I am sure.

I also paid 140 a year for registration, 45 bucks for my kyu patch and 45 per grade kyuwise. However I don't see much a prob for that.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

So what's the big deal about $ for Rank? In most other Mainstream Schools there is a fee for one's test, a fee for certification and licensing, a fee for retest. etc. So what's the difference if Hatsumi asks for a flat fee and gives someone their rank or requiring fee upon fee at each stage? If you can't back up your rank then that's a problem for you when the times really counts. Like Hatsumi was reported as saying- They are Paper Tigers. :asian:

 

[Greg Chapman]

Hi,

I dont pay for grading, although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates and i don't think Hatsumi does it just for money, when he gets paid so much anyway. As for rank has no meaning, i think this was taken out of context, it purely means that memebers do it for the knowledge not just the rank, the rank is a bonus. And Alex Mordine is just a bit of a toublemaker.

 

[Greg Chapman]

Just one more thing,

Shadow hunter, do you actually have experience in Ninjutsu as i see on your profile you seem to train in MANY martial arts, or are these just the books you have read on the toilet?

It looks like you are only missing a couple to become the oracle of all martial arts!!

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
I dont pay for grading, although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates...

Um, If you're not paying your membership dues, then you're not a Bujinkan member...

Jeff

 

[Greg Chapman]

I have got to disagree there, there are loads of people who do not send money to Japan but are still members, its not the same as other clubs where if you dont pay, you dont train, you can walk into the dojo's and just train, he does not expect everyone to be members, its just nice if you are. As for certificates, i got my 6th kyu one just for the hell of it so i got at least one to lok at, once i get to black belt then i will get Jap membership and every certificate.

 

[Kreth]

You're missing the point. If you aren't paying dues to Japan, then you are not a Bujinkan member. You may be a member of your local dojo, but that's a different story...

Jeff

 

[Greg Chapman]

Its good enough for me, my teacher is a registered shidoshi with the bujinkan, he teaches me bujinkan, i learn the knowledge, that's good enough for me, i belong as much as i need to and it doesnt cost me anything, now wasnt the thread about Hatsumi and not me??? Kreth, can i ask you if you are here just to try to flame posters as all of your postings on martialtalk seem to be confrontational?

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
Kreth, can i ask you if you are here just to try to flame posters as all of your postings on martialtalk seem to be confrontational?

I just tend to be blunt when people start throwing out inaccurate information as fact.

Jeff

 

[Greg Chapman]

Tell me how i am using incorrect info, all i am doing is telling people of my experience in the bujinkan, this is not forcing my ideals onto someone its simply saying that i do not pay the honbu, why is that incorrect?

 

[Jay Bell]

It's very simple, Greg. To be a member of the Bujinkan requires dues. If you do not pay those annual dues to the hombu, then you are not a member, regardless if you study in a Bujinkan dojo or not.

 

[Greg Chapman]

but again you are stating that i am giving out incorrect info, i am not, i am just stating my circumstances which are true and of my opinion, that does not make the incorrect!

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
although been part of the bujinkan i dont pay for my membership or certificates...

This is incorrect info. If you do not pay dues, you are not a Bujinkan member.
Not to mention the "facts" you've been stating as gospel over in the other thread...
And, btw, opinions can most definitely be incorrect.

Jeff

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Greg Chapman
Shadow hunter, do you actually have experience in Ninjutsu as i see on your profile you seem to train in MANY martial arts, or are these just the books you have read on the toilet?

It looks like you are only missing a couple to become the oracle of all martial arts!!

I think I can forgive your breaking of the rules about friendly discussion because I realize how hard it must be on you for me to be proven totally right.

When I first said that Hatsumi gave out ranks just to make a little extra cash everyone tried to shoot me down by saying that he does not even charge for ranks over fifth. Now we know that I was right and all those who argued with me were wrong.

And it seems that you personally do not even know how dues are collected in the Bujinkan.

I suppose that there must be a lot of people clutching their ranks and screaming, no- this rank really does mean somthing! I am special!!!

You have my sympathy.

 

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
When I first said that Hatsumi gave out ranks just to make a little extra cash everyone tried to shoot me down by saying that he does not even charge for ranks over fifth. Now we know that I was right and all those who argued with me were wrong.

Actually, I believe it was pointed out that some are charged for their ranks, and some are not. I personally know of one judan who was not charged for any of his ranks after godan, but taking a page from your book, I'm not going to bring his name into this discussion.

Jeff

 

[pknox]

Keep in mind that ranks above Godan are best understood in the context between Soke and the person who the rank was given to. As for the charge for the rank, I would believe that would be at Soke's discretion at well. Also keep in mind that while the fees required for some Dan ranks may be higher than in some schools (some, not all), there is no official testing below Godan, so that is something to take into consideration in the long term.

Bujingodai:
I realize you are now with an independent org, but keep in mind that the Bujinkan Hombu respectfully requests that tuition and fee info is not supposed to be posted, partly because these charges can vary depending on where you train. However, thank you for the info.

Kreth:
I do not know of the actual case you speak of, but possibly the individual and Soke Hatsumi had a special arrangement in regards to the cost? He does have the ability to do such a thing, and I would not be at all surprised to find that it has happened in the past.

Greg Chapman:

Its good enough for me, my teacher is a registered shidoshi with the bujinkan, he teaches me bujinkan, i learn the knowledge, that's good enough for me

I understand your sentiment, but don't you feel that the organization that is the source of these techniques deserves their due (or dues, in this case) as well? If you were a teacher, and one of your students was teaching someone else your techniques without your knowledge, and without giving you any compensation, how would you feel? Also, is your teacher currently registered (if you are not sure, just ask him to show you his most recent Shidoshi-kai card)? Just because he achieved the Shidoshi title once is not a guarantee he still has it in the eyes of the Bujinkan. If he is not a current member, he may also not be privy to anything "new" coming out of the hombu dojo in regards to techniques and principles (not new techniques as far as age, just as far as emphasis). Just so you know, if your teacher is a current Bujinkan member (i.e. he is in the Shidodhi-kai), and you plan to test within the Bujinkan, when you go to test for 5th dan (which very well may be with Soke himself), you may have a bit of an issue providing documentation of your previous ranks - if, however, he runs an independent dojo, than this may not prove to be an issue, as you would not be testing at hombu. This may not be of concern to you, but I figured it was information you should have.

Also, if at all possible, let's try to keep everybody's "toilet habits", including their preferred reading selections while so engaged, out of this. For those who are interested, I'm sure rec.martial-arts has plenty of information on the topic already.

 

[Rod Coulter]

Wow, talk about a volatile thread, but also very interesting to see.. I hate to see what happens in the Bujinkan after Hatsumi passes away!!
As far as my personal experience goes, I know that Hatsumi does give Ranks below godan, and above godan for no fee, and he also does charge for them, they are handled on a case by case basis. Now considering he charges aprox. $30us to train in his Dojo and about the same to train at the Budokan, we can can deduce that he/or the organization, is making some good money. Not sure how many of the people posting here have actually been to Japan and had the pleasure of being tossed around by Soke or not, but it is well worth the trip all politics aside. A large group of the Candians just got back from Japan this month and One of them recieved his Godan, on that day 7 others did as well in a room of 85, and each of them did have to pay for this. But also one of the group recieved his 9th and did not have to pay for this and actually he has not had to pay for a rank since I believe his San Dan, and I believe this is due to his relationship with Soke, so that said once agian it is a case by case basis. So what is wrong with making money in the Arts?? Now there are at least 2 issues here, now the problem seems to be unqualified people receiving the ranks, and this I have seen myself and yes it is even spoken about within the Bujinkan and has actually caused numerous problems, which Nagato Sensei is persoanlly working to clear up and admits himself that many Students should have at least 3 dans taken away, so can we get inside Hatsumi's mind and understand why he ranks the way he does?? No, we can only guess and pretend we have the answers. I do know he has gifted ranks, and he has "sold" ranks.
As far as why don't all these 6th Dan and above players come on this thread and announce what they paid or did not pay .. It was stated earlier, well most likely cause they don't either care too, don't know about this thread/site or wish simply to remain silent.

Let the ego's go, speak from fact, own experience and not from 2nd hand information that you may no nothing about. Let's try and understand that this is Hatsumi's organization and if he wants to rank someone or charge someone then he has full right to do so.

Once again I do know from personal experience the rank you may be given may not be the one you actually have attained, but are in the process of growing into. Only because I have played with 10th dans who move worse then some green belts.

 

[arnisador]

An article on him from a U.K. paper may be found here:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23504

 

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
He may accuse Hatsumi of being motivated by business, but the fact that you pay 30,000 yen is just a fact. Talk to Dale Seago, Bill Atikins, Mark O'Brian Ralph Severe or anyone else that has the "nosebleed ranks" and ask them if they had to pay for ranks over fifth dan. Go ahead, I dare you.

Two things about this:

1) The printed material provided to every shidoshi giving costs for uniform patches and other merchandise items from the hombu, ranks, etc. establishes specific fees to have ranks registered and menkyo issued. It also establishes a fee for 5th dan and all higher grades.

2) That being said, Sensei may also waive that fee if he feels like it and has done so. I can't answer for the other shidoshi mentioned above, but I paid the registration fee for godan and a number of ranks above that. On the other hand, more recently I've received menkyo as gifts, with specific instruction not to pay for them.

So I've paid for some ranks after being informed that I was being promoted, and I've had some ranks simply given to me. The only thing I've never done is ask for one.

 

[r.severe]

A few points in my opinion,

One, you can have a license in the Bujinkan Dojo, one being Bujinkan Dojo Ninpo Taijutsu the other Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu and NOT be a PAYING member to the Bujinkan Dojo membership ordeal. I feel that most of the ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo in my opinion has been for development of the Hombu Dojo and other such endeavors as the world growth of the system under Hatsumi sensei.

Two, you should not teach the Bujinkan Dojo system if you are only a grade student or to yondan in the Bujinkan Dojo with out being a shidoshi-ho under a shidoshi in the Bujinkan Dojo and call it Bujinkan Dojo ryugi - methods.

Three, you can teach the Bujinkan Dojo system as you were given the license of godan - shidoshi to do so without having a Bujinkan Dojo membership. My opinion in reason you can do anything with your training you would like as long as you do not lie about what you have or haven’t done or been trained to do or have the experience in confessing to.

Four, having a membership means nothing in the Bujinkan Dojo other than you have given someone some cash for a card and the right to say you are a member. If so please let me know. I have personally never gotten anything from being a member for 18 years. Hello?

Five, the Bujinkan Dojo American shidoshi-kai has never done anything for me as a student of the Bujinkan Dojo or helped in my training in any way. I have never seen anything from being a member or heard of anything being done to support the wholesomeness of the Bujinkan Dojo in American in any way.

Six, you should never use the name of Hatsumi sensei, Bujinkan Dojo or Bujinkan Logo for your own personal ranking license in regards to the system of the Bujinkan Dojo or Hatsumi sensei is concerned.

Seventh, you should not reproduce the Bujinkan Logo for your own self-interest or money gains without written permission from The Bujinkan Dojo.

Eighth, everyone with a license from Hatsumi sensei is a student of Hatsumi sensei. In my opinion.. It doesn’t mean anything to say you are a personal student of Hatsumi sensei.

Ninth, I cannot say one way or another if these human beings can fight.. but these are a few remarks.. I know personally the Seago shihan passed the shidoshi test wonderfully. I was watching. Regardless of his feelings towards me and remarks about the path I walk, he is a very skilled martial person. Atkins shihan is also a very skilled martial person. M O Brian has a great deal of information and experience.

That's all..

ooopps sorry,
I have paid for ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo... for these promotions only, nidan(88), sandan, hachidan(92).. Hatsumi sensei did not ask me for fees nor did anyone else for the other ranking.
Unlike Seago shihan, I have written Hatsumi sensei and asked him to test me at the 2002 taikai. Bud shihan and Ed shihan helped me with that request I made to Hatsumi sensei, kudan(02).

ralph severe, kamiyama