hatsumi's skill?

[heretic888]

you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing...
this isn't proof... just hearsay and very well stated opinion.

'Fraid not, enson.

There is no proof that Senzo Tanaka even existed. There is unquestionable proof that Takamatsu walked around Japan several decades ago.

Frank Dux is not a respected member of any martial arts community (except maybe his little circle of students). Hatsumi-soke was a recipient of the International Culture Award by the Japanese Imperial Household:

http://www.winjutsu.com/emperor-award.htm

Furthermore, there is no proof that Dux has gone out and "verified" his martial arts training. His proclaimed history in the military and hunting down codenamed serial killers, as well as his purported "kumite" tale, have been subsquently debunked --- as guys like Mr. Busman will gladly point out in detail.

So, no, 'fraid you're wrong in every way possible there.

 

[Cryozombie]

i think that is the first real point brought up here on this thread... not, "well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?" kinda dumb. anyway... what worked in the olden days might not necessarily work today... yeah its good to study tradition, but what happens when tradition is just history? i think even hayes said that in the old days they had to learn how to punch around the armour and other things... if that is the case a new modern version has to be made.

But... in reality, there are only so many ways for someone to punch, kick, stab, grab, whatever you... Most of those techniques would still be applicable today. I agree that some are not... but are studied for traditions sake. Nothing wrong with that. But think abouy even your comments about armor... What good is a technique that teaches you to grab the chinstrap on a samuari's helmet and jerk his head back nowadays? None... UNTIL you fight a guy in a motorcycle helmet, or a soldier in his PASGT helmet, and grab the chinstrap to jerk his head back... same same.

now, without getting off topic...
my question is simply this, what fighting experience does hatsumi have. its one thing to have skills and fluid technique... but what about fight experience? has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?

Hatsumiu, I dunno, My instructor, yes.

 

[Don Roley]

I think I should point out that many people point to matches such as the UFC when asked about real experience. I do not believe that anything other than a real fight for your life in sudden violence is considered combat proof.

But for those who do think that winning a match has some value, I will point out that Hatsumi gained the rank of fifth dan in Judo and won many honors in that art. He certainly got there by quite a few matches.

Of course, he then went and trained under a little guy in his 70s who beat him like a red haired step child (where the hell did that expression originate anyways?) by the name of Takamatsu. He then began learning under Takamatsu and is trying to pass along the teachings as he learned them to this day.

I do not think that Hatsumi has ever had to end off a knife welding attacker. He seems too smart to get into that situation and Japan is pretty safe in that regards. But he tries to pass along the lessons from people like Takamatsu who have as accuratly as possible. Technopunk touched on this pretty well. Not all of us on this board are going to face a knife even once in their life. If we say we can't then teach the knife defenses we were taught, there would be a lot less teachers.

This is kind of why I look at people that come up with new systems and new techniques with a little bit of suspicion. Have they tested every last single one of the techniques they teach in a real life or death situation? And if they have, what kind of idiot do they have to be to get into the experience that it normally takes a tradition a few generations of warriors to gain?

 

[RRouuselot]

This is kind of why I look at people that come up with new systems and new techniques with a little bit of suspicion. Have they tested every last single one of the techniques they teach in a real life or death situation? And if they have, what kind of idiot do they have to be to get into the experience that it normally takes a tradition a few generations of warriors to gain?

Well said.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well here is my opinion for what it is worth! Having used martial skills in the real world, work related and otherwise. I have no doubt in Sensei's ability in the martial arts. Sensei's skill in martial science is of the highest order. Having experienced him first hand there is no doubt that if he needed to, he would be a dangerous opponent even at his advanced age. The best thing about what he teaches is the structual integrity of the moves. What I mean by this is that what is being taught does not rely on strength, speed, weight, etc. Even a person who is exhausted, sick, injured, weak, frail etc. would have a chance at using these techniques and being effective if they move their body appropriately and at the right time and in the right space. That is what is so cool about Budo Taijutsu. If you ever have the chance to experience Hatsummi's skill level in person I would highly recommend it. If that is impossible for some reason or other then experience some of his finest students in person at a seminar. Someone like Phil Legare, Mike Pearce, Ed Martin, Jack Hoban etc. More important one would ask why you would ask a question like this unless you have an agenda! I would say to you that life is short, try and train with some of the greats while you can. Men like Soke, Innosanto, William De Thoars, etc. Also try to train with some of the up and coming greats! Hopefully you have had a chance to train with some of the greats who have passed away like Remy Presas, Ueishiba, Parker, Lee etc. In other words don't waste your time with questions like this because in the end your wasting your time to train with someone of note. Oh brother, I just wasted some time!!!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Enson]

so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted? okay if that is good enough for everyone of his practicioners. maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization. disillusioned by his "traditional art". its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... (cause he is to smart for that, and japan is the safest place to live ) could be the source for practicle modern day training. just some thoughts.

so is that what the consensus is saying? he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat? or is it saying that through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat? not takamatsu or whoever was before him... hatsumi.

i'm not talking about using judo in a sparring match... using the ninjutsu that he apparently is the only real source to go to.

an agenda? well no. i just want to find the facts.
oh yeah if questions warrant another bad rep point then okay!

 

[Kreth]

I realize you're trying to pick a fight, since you don't like some questions about your teacher, but let me see if I can boil down what has been pointed out already.
1. To the best of my knowledge, Hatsumi sensei has neither been in combat, nor has he done any brawling to "test" his training.
2. Traditional systems like the Bujinkan are based on techniques that have been combat tested. If a technique works in a fight, then it may get written down. If not, well then in the case of a life and death struggle, it does not get written down. Therefore, it is not necessary for every generation's soke to personally test the training. To do so would be re-inventing the wheel.
3. Tanemura, Manaka did not leave because they thought Bujinkan training was ineffective. They left over differences of teaching methods. Where did you hear otherwise? Or were you talking about other "respectable" (your quotes) martial artists?
4. Many Bujinkan practitioners have used their training in rl situations, as law enforcement officers, active duty and reserve military, and other dangerous jobs.

So no, the current grandmaster of the Bujinkan is not combat tested. The training has been, and continues to be tested, by his students, and their students, and so on... Is that what you were looking for?

Jeff

 

[Shogun]

I know this has probably been posted before, but Takamatsu DID test out his aquired skills in what today would be equivelant to Brazilian Vale Tudo contests. Around the turn of the century, Portugese boxers, french kickboxers, english wrestlers, and the like, went to Japan. while there they heard of these small aisan guys who had magical powers, and could throw them down with ease. They basically called them out in public, and Takamatsu wa there to answer. Steven Hayes will tell you this, Enson. Now, if he taught the same techniques to Hatsumi, then hatsumi knows "how to fight". I have been in several fights and can personally attest that no fight is the same. Fighting is not MMA, etc. the only way to know how to fight is to learn body mechanics, and general anatomy. There is no set pattern on how people fight, and being in many of them won't necessarily make you better at them.

 

[Enson]

I realize you're trying to pick a fight, since you don't like some questions about your teacher, but let me see if I can boil down what has been pointed out already.
So no, the current grandmaster of the Bujinkan is not combat tested. The training has been, and continues to be tested, by his students, and their students, and so on... Is that what you were looking for?

Jeff

well i'm not trying to pick anything... except maybe my nose right now... flu season and all.

so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today. so the students of hatsumi are supporting him because they believe their style will work. talk about faith. believing w/o seeing! so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing. dux's students can one day say (if indeed it is the case) our sensei/hanshi has not fight experience but is teaching something that he learned from a guy who supposedly used it in a bunch (of course only through rumors and hearsay... maybe some propaganda) of fights.

so are we saying that buj might be a limited art? since it is only moves that worked back then? i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence? i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

this is not ment to offend anyone. i consider every martial artist regardless of the school to be top notch. this is just ment to get some answers.

peace

 

[RRouuselot]

so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted? okay if that is good enough for everyone of his practicioners. maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization. disillusioned by his "traditional art". its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... 1) (cause he is to smart for that, and japan is the safest place to live ) could be the source for practicle modern day training. just some thoughts.

so is that what the consensus is saying? he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat? or is it saying that through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat? not takamatsu or whoever was before him... hatsumi.

i'm not talking about using judo in a sparring match... using the ninjutsu that he apparently is the only real source to go to.

2) an agenda? well no. i just want to find the facts.
oh yeah if questions warrant another bad rep point then okay!

Enso,

Your question is not a bad one but you attitude kind sucks. One can’t help but think you started this right as either a way to defer some of the “heat” you were getting about your own “sensei” or simply just lash out at the same people that had questions about him.

Here something that might be hard for you to understand. Hatsumi didn’t invent the art he trains in….others did…most likely it was “tested” and polished in some way over the last few hundred years by them. Unlike Rick Tew, your “sensei” who claims he has invented a better more practical art. So here we need to ask “better” and more “practical” than what? Stuff traditional that has been used and “tested” for centuries?

If so then Tew needs to cough up some proof as to WHY he thinks it is in the form which techniques of his work better than the traditional ones….he needs to do it in the same manner the traditional Ninjutsu was tested….maybe some well trained swordsman intent on choping his head off with a nice sharp sword. Doesn't even have to be a sword even a semi-sharp butter knife would do........
Otherwise he, like you, is just talking smack.


Here is a “wild hair” why don’t you hop on a jet and challenge Hatsumi to a fight…..



1) You ever been to Japan?
2) Hell, even I can see you have an agenda and I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[heretic888]

well i'm not trying to pick anything... except maybe my nose right now... flu season and all.

so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today. so the students of hatsumi are supporting him because they believe their style will work. talk about faith. believing w/o seeing! so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing. dux's students can one day say (if indeed it is the case) our sensei/hanshi has not fight experience but is teaching something that he learned from a guy who supposedly used it in a bunch (of course only through rumors and hearsay... maybe some propaganda) of fights.

so are we saying that buj might be a limited art? since it is only moves that worked back then? i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence? i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

this is not ment to offend anyone. i consider every martial artist regardless of the school to be top notch. this is just ment to get some answers.

Contrary to the rhetorical language you are using, enson, you must assuredly are attempting to offend others, start fights, and in general malign the Bujinkan.

This has been covered before: if you think the only people "worthy" of teaching self-defense and combatic teachings are ones that have used them --- well, then, you got yourself a really short list to go by.

Its kinda funny, that. In Ninpo, one's ability to not get into violent confrontations is generally seen as a strength --- not as some deficiency, as you are portraying it to be.

Also, I don't recall anyone claiming the Dux system is "ineffective", as opposed to "fraudulent".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think you have missed several of the points that were made.

In the military, certain drills are taught today by instructors who have never used them in combat. They were taught in many cases by instructors who also did not see combat. That does not make the lessons contained within the drill any less effective, and that knowledge is right now being re-tested in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Note, I said re-tested, as it was originally developed by combat veterans.

Hatsumi does not need to have re-tested it. His instructor passed down techniques that have been tested, again and again, over centuries of refinement and study. His students take the lessons, test them and have re-proven them.

Frank Dux has had his statements and history verified wrong, and his techniques examined by those who do know, and they say those techniques are poor.

As to "Limited", while the probability of encountering an armoured samurai weilding a katana is rather slim on the Chicago streets, one might encounter a heavily padded biker swinging a bowie. He may even be wearing ceramic plate armour (if he's really intense). The fancy high kick to the head will only result in a rather messy ending of ones ability to pass on genes. (TKD kicks being designed for a different opponent, and different terrain). Understanding how to avoid a sword slash may not be 'practical'..unless ones opponent is swinging a machette, or a shovel.

The concepts of most serious arts may focus on a particular 'prop', but have been proven to be valid in general as well as specific situations.

 

[Kreth]

so are we saying that buj might be a limited art? since it is only moves that worked back then? i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence? i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

You don't seem to be reading entire posts, just picking what you want to read. And the tone of your posts is definitely intended to incite flames, regardless of what you say. Let me put things this way. I am not a compliant uke (training partner). If someone asks me to demo, and they have a high rank, I am going to do my best to smack/kick/choke/crush them. Now, I *do* have a bit of bar fight (that real world enough?) experience under my belt. I'd never call myself a street fighter, or expert on the subject, but I've won my share, both as a drunken, stupid jarhead, and as a bouncer for bars in NC and here in NY. Having said that, Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan tossed and smacked me around like a playtoy, even with probably close to a 100 lb weight disadvantage. That to me isn't blind faith, it's rather convincing proof.

Jeff

 

[Cryozombie]

on the Chicago streets, one might encounter a heavily padded biker swinging a bowie. He may even be wearing ceramic plate armour

You just described me exactly when I am out repoing cars in Chi-town. Thats weird.

 

[George Kohler]

so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned...

Actually, according to Tanemura Sensei, Hatsumi sensei did have some fights with some foreign Judo practioners. If I remember correctly, they lost to Hatsumi Sensei and they became students of his. One of those students was Doron Navon, who went to Japan to hone his Judo skills, but later left that art to study with Hatsumi Sensei.

BTW, Doron Navon and Danny Waxman, both students of Hatsumi Sensei who studied Judo prior to studing under Hatsumi Sensei, were in Donn Draeger's book Judo Formal Techniques: A Complete Guide to Kodokan Randori no Kata. It is possible that the other Judo person that I mentioned above could have been Danny Waxman. Danny Waxman, now a 6th dan in Judo, won the Israeli Judo Championship in 1969.

If you are talking about combat experience, that you gain in war, then disregard what I said above, because the last time Japan was at war was during WWII. Hatsumi Sensei was too young at the time.

 

[George Kohler]

what record is there of takamatsu using it. i know of the hearsay but what documentation is there?

The only records of Takamatsu Sensei fighting in Japan and China are his autobiography articles in Japanese Budo newspaper/magazine in the 1960's. I can't remember the name of the newspaper/magazine, but if you want I can go home and find the name.

Also, according to Tanemura Sensei, not only did he fight several chinese martial artists, but also a person with the last name of "Smith" (sorry, his first name is not known) who was challenging people. Smith was using English Boxing. There is an article in the Japan Times (November 7, 1913) about a German with the name "E. M. Smith." in Japan. I don't know if this is the same person. The article can be found here. The fight was said to have been fought in China, though. It could be possible that this same "Smith" went to China as well. The time periods match.

 

[MJS]

don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

peace

Enson-

I know that you said that Tew has some supposed fights under his belt. Are these documented? If so, where? In addition, you also stated that there are NHB fights that are also supposedly documented. What events? Who fought? Dates?

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

1)i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

2) this is not ment to offend anyone. i consider every martial artist regardless of the school to be top notch. this is just ment to get some answers.

peace

1) How about you? Ever been in any "real" situations where you were required to call on "Tew Ryu"? If so, care to share any of them with us????
2) Oh, of course not......

 

[Enson]

i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!


this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...

what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been "he has none", "your senseis do but your soke doesn't" that to me is a oxy moron. "what about you?" which has nothing to do with this thread... "you have bad breath" okay... i made that one up! "what about your teacher?" which still doesn't have anything to do with this thread... the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... are there secret students out there?:idunno:

if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.

peace

 

[Enson]

1) How about you? Ever been in any "real" situations where you were required to call on "Tew Ryu"? If so, care to share any of them with us????
2) Oh, of course not......

isn't this sniping? or at least baiting? well i guess the mods let this one get through the cracks.