hatsumi's skill?

[MJS]

i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!


this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...

what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been "he has none", "your senseis do but your soke doesn't" that to me is a oxy moron. "what about you?" which has nothing to do with this thread... "you have bad breath" okay... i made that one up! "what about your teacher?" which still doesn't have anything to do with this thread... the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... are there secret students out there?:idunno:

if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.

peace

This topic is certainly getting off track. The title is about skill, NOT combat, and there is a difference, and this quote addresses it.

In the thread I created about Rick Tew that mimics this one, when asked about Tew's merits in competitions you stated (correctly) that the original question was if RTMS has been tested, and not if Tew himself is skilled or not.

This thread is called "Hatsumi's skill" but the question you put forth has nothing to do with his skill level, but is rather about whether or not he has actual combat experience.
You have some serious explaining to do.

Enson- It is apparent that you're starting these threads in light of the ones that were started about Tew. You're complaining about not getting any answers, but yet you provide no or very vauge answers yourself.

Again, last time I checked, this thread was about Hatsumis skill, not the fights that he has had. If you want to know about his fights, start a new thread!!

Mike

 

[George Kohler]

if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.

Enson,

Did you read my post? Just to make sure there is no confusion from my post, Tanemura Sensei was an eye witness.

 

[RRouuselot]

i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!


this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...

what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been "he has none", "your senseis do but your soke doesn't" that to me is a oxy moron. "what about you?" which has nothing to do with this thread... "you have bad breath" okay... i made that one up! "what about your teacher?" which still doesn't have anything to do with this thread... the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... are there secret students out there?:idunno:

if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.

peace

Enson,

If the Mods want to slap a suspension on me or boot me off here I can live with it……
However, it seems to me, and more than a few others, that you started this thread in retaliation to the one that was started about your buddy Tew.


Your questions were answered several times by several of his students and very directly I might add.
You got any other questions?

 

[Cryozombie]

isn't this sniping? or at least baiting? well i guess the mods let this one get through the cracks.

Enson,

The mods for this section (mainly me) are not on 24/7, if you need somthing brought to our attention, please use the Report Post button, that way the item can be brought to our attention.

Thanks.

 

[Blind]

Enson,

Did you read my post? Just to make sure there is no confusion from my post, Tanemura Sensei was an eye witness.

Yes! Hatsumi actually spoke about one of the challenges he recieved once(I was there-to hear the story), apparently when it became known that a relatively young Soke existed a few people did turn up- it wasn`t made to sound life and death or anything but I don`t think it was light hearted either.

Enson, do you just want to keep asking the same question and say it`s not good enough? He has trained people all over, he is well respected by many many people. You think it is rediculous that people who study from him have put it into real situations yet he hasn`t?

Thats your answer right there, there are a quite a few people he has trained that do trust their lives with what he teaches and think he knows what he is talking about. Do you think those types of people wouldn`t realise if they were being taught rubbish?

I don`t see what more can be said.

Bujinkan people good or bad are happy doing what they are doing, "being ninjutsu traditionalists that hide behind scrolls and names?"or something to that effect. If they weren`t then they would stop or do something else.

You seem happy to practise(assuming you do) Gymnastics and self confidence while throwing in a few locks and punches from some art (Hapkido?) in order to become "real combat" practical. Taking the word of a guy who looks, which can be decieving I know, to be making Van Damme movies his lifes reality, I can understand people wondering who he is. Thats fine if that`s what you want though.

I may be wrong but I think the original line of questioning about Rick Tew was to find out if he had actually done much training or was he just another "I have been training for ten(?) years and I look pretty good so I can start a school and pay my rent" type guy.

You have shifted the goal posts with this thread going from "is Hatsumi skilled" to "yes but how can you prove it if he has never been in real mortal combat".
Have fun jumping around in The Grand Canyon.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Ok let's see if I can follow this, because I have a lot of questions for you, Enson, before I would be able to help you further.

#1

"i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved?"

Hatsumi-sensei has used his ninjutsu training successfully to become a wonderful human being and to stay out of trouble. Getting into fights would actually be a failed use of ninjutsu.

"i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience..."

First of all, Ralph Severe is a bully who likes to fight, and uses things such as his supposed record of street fights and his constant criticism of the Bujinkan as marketing for his own school.

"... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work..."

I believe this has been answered adequettely.

"...i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore..."

And that is supposed to make us conclude what? That Bujinkan techniques are ineffective because Mr. Hayes doesn't use some of them? That Hatsumi doesn't have fighting experience - or even skill - because one of his former students has made changes to the way Bujinkan-derived techniques are taught?

"... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective."

So that's the conclusion? Mr. Hayes doesn't use certain techniques and that means that Bujinkan techniques are not all effective, and that is due to Hatsumi not having fighting experience?

"...maybe even ralph changed some things."

Ralph changed a lot of things, and because of his behavior was ejected from the Bujinkan before he could become a judan.

"... i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure ..."

Oh he is? I thought he was a man - turns out he's actually a god. Neat.

"...and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art."

He (Hatsumi) is practicing a tried art. Do you mean that it would be nice if he had to save his life in a fight using the skills he has mastered? What's so nice about that? I wouldn't wish that fate on anybody.

"... i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested..."

Tested by whom? Mr. Hayes? And where do you think he learned "his stuff?"

"...but is hatsumi's?"

As has been repeated several times. Many of Hatsumi's students have had to use the skills they learned from him, and so has Hatsumi's teacher.

If you are trying to draw the conclusion that the Bujinkan style is ineffective because the head of the organization has no fighting experience, you have failed.

"... now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill."

So many others? Like what? 3? 4? And so much more skill? According to whom? Your expert analysis?

#3

"who cares if hatsumi doesn't? well i should hope the practicioners do. if not they are studying an art that they have never seen used by their sensei."

Why would Bujinkan practicioners care that they haven't seen their sensei use his skills in a real fight as long as they are being shown how to properly train themselves to protect themselves in real fights (and that clearly is the case).

You are obviously trying to draw erroneous conclusions. Your question has been answered. Others are not reacting negatively towards you because of your questions, but because of your attitude.

#19

"are these the only answers i'm going to get?"

What more do you need? You asked a question. It was answered and further qualified to help draw the proper conclusion.

#34

"'well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?' "

I would like to know who you are attributing the above quote to. I don't remember seeing anyone say that.

#39

"you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing..."

No, there is no comparison.

#46

"so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted?"

That is irrelevant (but I would guess that he would - in fact, I have so much faith in his abilities, that he would effectively avoid such a confrontation). What is important, is does Hatsumi-sensei have enough knowledge and skill to pass on to his students so that they would win if confronted. Thousands of people believe he does. Many of those have proven it to themselves - myself included. I have never trained directly with Hatsumi-sensei, but I have trained with people that have so I am not far-removed from the source. Because of that transmission (from a person with no combat experience) I have successfully defended myself in dangerous situations on numerous occasions.


"...maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization."

Yeah, some. Can you name them? My point is you probably can, because there is only a handful. Compared to the thousands that are satisfied with soke's teachings, those few are insignificant.

"its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... could be the source for practicle modern day training."

I guess it's just your sense of humor that makes you find that funny, 'cause as funny as you think it is, it's true.

"he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat?"

Whose mouth are you putting these words into? How did you decide this was the consensus?

"through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat?"

No one here is trying to prove such a thing. Your agenda (yes you have one) is to disprove that notion (even though no one was trying to prove such a thing in the first place), and you accomplished that. Congratulations.

#49

"so then its settled."

Your question has been answered, yes, but the matter is not settled, because your agenda to debase the Bujinkan is relying on erroneous conclusions drawn from an illogical pool of non-sequitors with no proper antecedent information to back them up - and that is in addition to ignoring the rationally-stated testimonials of the members of this forum who were so kind to take time out of their day to help you.

"hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today."

You have not provided the sources to properly draw this conclusion. You are trying to obtain the conclusion that Bujinkan skills are ineffective in fights based solely on the experience of the organization's founder.

" so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing."

That isn't even the other side of any coin. There is no comparison. This appears to be another part of your agenda - to validate the teachings of Dux. Sorry, but that is a lost cause.

"so are we saying that buj might be a limited art?"

"we?" who in this thread (besides you in that instance) has said that? What logical train of thought did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

".. since it is only moves that worked back then?"

And how are you drawing this conclusion?

" i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence?"

You have completely ignored the mentions of *present-day* Bujinkan students who have tested the skills in battle and on the street. Ignoring the evidence does not make it go away.

Who said anything about samurai in this thread? If you will accept that Takamatsu used his skills in real fights, do you think he faught against samurai?

" i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... "

Yeah, it makes us think you have an agenda, and that your skills in logic are dismally lacking.

"this is not ment to offend anyone."

Really?!!

"this is just ment to get some answers."

You got your answers a long time ago, and then you drew illogical conclusions to try to accomplish your mission of debasing the Bujinkan - and what could possibly be your motivation for that?

#59

"so i will ask again..."

Why ask again, if the question has been adequettely answered - numerous times?

"what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been 'he has none', . . . "

Why is that answer not good enough for you?

" 'your senseis do but your soke doesn't' that to me is a oxy moron. "

You obviously don't know what an oxymoron is then. I would also like to know who you are attributing that quote to.

"i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. ...the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... "

People are being offended by your attitude, not your questions. You had one question. It was answered. The people "apperanlty getting insulted" that have no ties to Hatsumi aren't in fact being insulted as such, except by your blatent misuse of logic in trying to carry out your agenda. They are merely trying to correct you where you go wrong. I'm sorry if you find that insulting.

We are putting you on the spot, because this thread lost its usefulness on page 1 - somewhere around post #2 - when the question was answered.

"there should be some clear answers."

Does your computer monitor need some Windex? There was one question, it was answered - clearly.

"... so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults."

Hearsay, maybe; insults, perhaps - but propaganda? What propaganda has there been in this thread besides you saying that the Bujinkan is bunk?

"lets all find the facts together."

What other fact are you trying to find?

 

[Don Roley]

In the military, certain drills are taught today by instructors who have never used them in combat. They were taught in many cases by instructors who also did not see combat. That does not make the lessons contained within the drill any less effective, and that knowledge is right now being re-tested in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Note, I said re-tested, as it was originally developed by combat veterans.

Hatsumi does not need to have re-tested it. His instructor passed down techniques that have been tested, again and again, over centuries of refinement and study. His students take the lessons, test them and have re-proven them.

Good point. Maybe instead of talking about the experience of Hatsumi, we should be talking about the experience that flows through Hatsumi. After all, the charecter for "ryu" is also pronounced "nagare" and means "to flow."

But, and the same time, there is the very valid question of whether Hatsumi managed to retain those lessons picked up over time and is now passing them along now. And of course, the question we should all be thinking about is have we learned the lessons that have been paid for in blood before us. After all, anyone who has been in martial arts for a good length of time can point to people who have trained under skilled teachers but never "got it."

Based on the fact that Takamatsu kept Hatsumi around for so long and named him his succesor, and the large number of people who credit his teachings with saving their lives, I think we can say that Hatsumi probably gets it.

But what about us?

I think it was Ed Lomax that first used the term, "an 800 year old security blanket." I have seen people who really don't know the first thing about the Bujinkan point to its long history as if by the mere fact that they have set foot in the Bujinkan dojo that they are doing things that are assured to work. The worse the understanding, the more they seem to point to the history of the art to make it seem like they are really bad dudes in a fight.

Well, I decided long ago to go out and get some first hand information on what went on in a fight. Not by starting my own- I ain't that stupid. :ultracool But by learning what I could from people whose experience with deadly violence could be proven. (Police reports, medical records for wounds, etc) I learned defense against a knife from an ex- street thug who had faced them on numerous occasions. I learned how to use a knife from a guy who had used them to kill as part of the S.O.G.. And so on and so forth. Alain Burresse, Peytonn Quinn, etc, etc....

And you know, the more experience the guy has, the more what he says seems to echo what my teacher in Japan says. Of course it has a lot more impact when someone who pulls up his sleeve to show you his knife scars tells you that you need to have the mind set that no matter what happens you will do more damage to the other guy than he does to you than when a Japanese recites the saying, "if you cut my skin I will crush your bones", etc..

I learned so much from these guys, even though a lot of what they taught was the same as what I could learn in Japan. But instead of sitting on the experience of my tradition, I challenged my perceptions and went out to see what I could learn. It was a fantastic experience to look at the teachings from a different angle. There are differences out there, but questioning why other combat proven arts do things in slightly different ways also is a good way to wake up and look at things with new eyes. I honestly think that more people in the Bujinkan should do the same.

I will let Enson get back to his crusade now.

 

[RRouuselot]

A) i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? B) i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... C) if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work... D) i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective. maybe even ralph changed some things.

E) not to cause any flame wars but i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure F) and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art. G) i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested... but is hatsumi's? H) i know that he was the original source for ninjutsu but now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill.

A) That question was answered not once but several times by several different people here.
B) You think there might have been this guy that knew someone that had a brother that might have heard………basically you are asking a question based on hearsay at best. Did YOU actually hear Ralph Severe say this?
C) The same way you know if your technique is going to work every time in every fight…..nobody knows anything for sure.
D) Was it Hayes’ fault or the techniques? Seriously, did he do the technique correctly in whatever situation he tested it in?
E) What gives you the idea he is “worshiped”? He maybe respected but I doubt there is some guy out there praying to Hatsumi so that his sick grandmother will get better. Being a religious man I am pretty sure you know the meaning of “worship” right?
F) With 8 centuries behind it I am guessing it may have been tested once….maybe twice.
G) I thought you were a dyed in the wool Tew man…..what gives? You want to join Hayes because his stuff is tested……why? Isn’t Tew’s stuff tested? OR Did you just inadvertently say Tew’s stuff wasn’t tested?
H) Who branched off? How do you know they have more skill? Did you personally check them out and compare them to your personal training with Hatsumi? I think it’s only respectful to comment on whether a person has skill or not until after you have seen what they do.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I think if you question a mans ability, you should go to his dojo and respectfully ask him for a fight, when you sign the release, your clouds will be removed.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

wow, enson......by making these posts i think you lost any shred of credibility you might have had left.
you have no definition for the word combat it seems.
you've never combat tested your skills.
you have no respect for anyone, and this is no fact finding mission. you have no respect for the facts or for anything by the sounds of it.
i'd be surprised if anyone would let you step foot in their school(and i dont mean video or virtual school either).
good luck in your studies.

shawn

 

[KenpoTess]

MOD NOTE

Ok.. this has gone on way to far.. The question has been asked and answered and now this thread is being closed.
Provoking, Attacking and Retaliation are in violation of Martial Talks rules and Policies. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=315112#post315112

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