Bujinkan a fraud?

[Aiki Lee]

I think the people who get suckered into these situations don't do hardly any research, and they join forums because they are genuinely excited about what they do. Then they begin to hear things and get very offended. It is normal for people to defend any belief they hold, because no one wants to have to admit that they have been wrong or tricked. It makes people feel stupid or gullable.

I think in the cases such as this it is necessary to point out to those individuals that it is not their fault they have been tricked. These frauds are professional conmen who have spent years learning how to prey on the minds of people. It only becomes their fault once they realize that they are wrong and continue to act as if they are right.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So in short no matter what style I study in the martial arts I'm going to be called a fraud and a fake anyway because of the negative things associated with that style or its practitioners and I see moves they do that mirror what I'm training in formally at a school and because I see similarities from my school's teachings to what they do too mind as well use them to reference my training at my school too. Sounds simple don't it ?[/quote]

It sounds to me like you want to study MMA so why not just study that instead of calling what you do Ninjutsu when it has no base in that?

 

[Tanaka]

Okay its a long story but I hope you guys like reading but here is a couple of Ron Collins books on PDF specifically the Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book and his Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook:

You are so hopeless. You have so many people telling you what to do to get into a legitimate martial art. And you still try to do things your own inexperienced way. You still try to live in fantasy of being a Ninja. After 3 seconds of watching the Ashida Kim video I could tell he wasn't doing anything remotely close to traditional Japanese system OR ANYTHING JAPANESE. So that excludes Ninjutsu. And are you kidding me?
"Pro wrestler moves done in MMA"
...It's more like grappling in MMA

The sleeper hold isn't something new to anyone here. In fact it is commonly referred to as Hadakajime. Other Japanese arts may call it differently. And the thing about Hadakajime is YOU WILL most likely get it wrong and develop bad habits with it. Unless you have qualified training under qualified instructor.

So one final time(Before I just start sitting back and laughing at you), stop living in fantasy. You have been told that Ninjutsu requires historical lineage.
And systems that claims historical/traditional value needs valid lineage.

 

[Tanaka]

Look guys I don't care what you think of me I have my reasons as to why I do the things I do regarding my martial arts training as you guys do with yours. Besides I haven't seen Bruno provide proof yet of Toda's existence as Oaktree requested other than the response he doesn't know and I guess you guys banned RoninX for his comment stating the same thing. You guy's have your own problems to worry about it as it is if threads like this are coming up questioning your style's lineage just like the styles that I formally train in and this is just counting in the styles I train at in a school not Ron Collins' or Ashida Kim's material either. So go on ahead say whatever you want to say about me and why I'm approaching my martial arts training in this matter I got better things to worry about than pleasing people who are being called the same things that they are calling me. (Hint read the title of this thread)

Takamatsu has verified Koryu lineage(Ex. Kukishin ryu)
Therefore as a respectable martial artist his claims are a lot more believable.(As he is dead and cannot stand up for himself)

Than Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's mysterious super duper secret Ninja masters that came to America and taught them Ninjutsu.(Coincidentally during the American "Ninja" boom.)
With known dead lineages.

-Oh yeah and doing things that don't look like traditional Japanese arts.

 

[ronin7411]

How about this guys since I already answered why I approach my martial arts training the way I do with links why I do and since you guys keep bringing this up I have a favor to ask of you guys that Oaktree asked before that RoninX elaborated on as well plus I want to see if you guys can do it as well:

Since the title of this thread is "Bujinkan a Fraud ?" show us proof that Toda existed without using any material from the Bujinkan and any organization affiliated with or has lineage to Togakure Ryu and with Masaaki Hatsumi being used in doing so since its your style we're talking about here not mine. Show us Japanese documents from the government proving he had lived at one time or show us public records that Toda existed that are not related to the X-kans or Masaaki Hatsumi. (Since everything you guys showed me regarding your lineage is that its a partial truth not all of it is real since it can't be all confirmed) Also I don't want to see the Kukishin blog again neither and which has the same responses Bruno was giving Oaktree when in his own words he decided "to play Devil's Advocate" of "I don't know you got to take his word for it". Since I've showed why I do the things I do with my martial arts training show Oaktree, RoninX, and all of the people who doubt the lineage of Togakure Ryu that the missing piece that Oaktree asked Bruno about is real and that the Japanese government has proof that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did exist at one time or another.

 

[pgsmith]

... and that the Japanese government has proof that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did exist at one time or another.

I don't know about any of the other stuff that you're worrying about as I have no connections with any of the ninjutsu groups. However, it is pretty obvious to me that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did in fact exist as he's listed in Yamada and Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. They were known to be pretty meticulous about their research. You could have easily found that out for yourself if you had taken a few minutes to look for it. Sorry if you feel disillusioned, but trying so hard to put down other traditions won't help you much in the end, even if they turn out to be every bit as invented as what you are practicing.

 

[Indagator]

A similar argument could be made for learning leanguages, and you claiming that cyrillic is a different form of Japanese.
.

Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but you saying this brings back to mind the hilarious occasion I experienced once while listening to late night talkback radio.
There was a guy who was slurring his words and making a bunch of rather incoherent statements, who claimed that the "cyrillic language" came from bears. Apparently the guttural tones and so forth were passed down from bears to men, or something. He went on for quite awhile on this topic - longer than any of the other stuff actually, but what was funniest was his argument and reasoning. He actually had taken a logical approach and used logical thought processes to come to his conclusion. Skewed logic, but logic nonetheless. It made sense in a certain sort of way.

I wish I had of recorded that, actually. It lives on in my memory, fading slightly as the years slip by...

 

[ronin7411]

I don't know about any of the other stuff that you're worrying about as I have no connections with any of the ninjutsu groups. However, it is pretty obvious to me that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did in fact exist as he's listed in Yamada and Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. They were known to be pretty meticulous about their research. You could have easily found that out for yourself if you had taken a few minutes to look for it. Sorry if you feel disillusioned, but trying so hard to put down other traditions won't help you much in the end, even if they turn out to be every bit as invented as what you are practicing.

Where's the proof at ? Also even you are saying that some of it might be made up too just like the arts I'm studying I'm like Oaktree (Hope you don't mind Oaktree but here is links to your individual posts http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372516&postcount=39 and http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372580&postcount=48 ) I want to see hard evidence from a Japanese government document that Toda existed not hearsay. Also you can ask Scorpion Clan and Kumori Ninja too along with my friends I talk to that belong to the Bujinkan I always recommended Togakure Ryu to practice with but even they are under the same scrutiny that other styles of the martial arts face with its detractors and people who don't like the art and their practitioners as well but their opinion of it shouldn't stop you from studying it.

 

[Indagator]

Based on "Kumori Ryu Ninja" 's open-to-the-public Facebook page I don't think he has much love for the Bujinkan, not at all.

In fact, it would almost seem like he had a score to settle of some kind...

Speculation, I know, but like I said - the page is open to the public, and the comments... well... hmmm?

 

[Aiki Lee]

The "proof" is in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, or did you not read the post you just quoted? If someone showed you a Japanese document would you even know what was being shown? It would be in Japanese, could you read it?

Besides your point doesn't address the same degree of questioning. That would be like us asking who Collin's (or Kim's) teacher's teacher was. The do not reveal proof of having a single ninjutsu teacher. Hatsumi has proof of training with Takamatsu. That is the degree of questioning that is reasonable to compare with what others are asking of the questionable people you seem to be defending.

You think my earlier question was answered with your response, but I don't think you understand what I meant. I saw the drawings and read through some of those books you posted, and looked at the "kata-dante" (please look up Count Dante if you get the chance, you will see that he was a crazy person) and I don't see what about these methods you find appealing. My question is why choose these people to study under? What (other than their techniques) is waht draws you to them.

Please do not compare Scorpion Clan with Kumori Ryu Ninja. During private conversations with Scorpion Clan, he revealed that he is looking for legitimate teachers to train under, Kumori Ryu looked for every possible excuse to avoid training so he could teach his watered down version of the basics.

Your enthusiasm is good, but it is misplaced in these people. They do not teach ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is Japanese, it is old, its techniques should display a particular kind of movement and be suited for a particular type of enemy.

 

[Cryozombie]

show us proof that Toda existed without using any material from the Bujinkan and any organization affiliated with or has lineage to Togakure Ryu and with Masaaki Hatsumi being used in doing so since its your style we're talking about here not mine.

 

[ronin7411]

Is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten a Japanese government document or is it a private document in a martial arts school in Japan that is privately held and maintained without Japanese government oversight ? Like I said I will only trust Japanese government documents proving that Toda existed which according to Oaktree should be easy to find since the Japanese government keeps records dating back to the Meiji era not hearsay and something that can be fabricated out of the thin blue air just to cover their tracks. Also Himura so what John Keehan/ Count Dante dojo raided a school that owed him money then killed a student of that school and got a friend of his killed in the process AND WALKED AWAY WITH DOING IT. Also here is something regarding James Mitose that I bet you guys didn't know about that the last 5 years of his life was spent in Folsom Prison because his last student Terry Lee/ Nimr Hassan killed someone that owed Mitose money as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mitose I already stated why I use Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's materials I see similarities to the moves I do in my American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido classes plus when I train with people that do MMA I have successfully used moves sparring against them from their books. (like I prefer to go for a Human Straight Jacket Hold/ Hadakajime/ Scarf Choke (BJJ name of it) then a rear naked choke because its quicker to apply than a rear naked choke) Along with when I research the martial arts backgrounds of the people who founded or heavily influenced the styles that I study I see that the Koga clan was associated to that art so since I see the connections to the arts I'm formally training in to Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (despite it being from separate clans of the Koga) I use them as a reference to my training in the martial arts. I also had private conversations with Scorpion Clan too and to be honest he's in Ninjutsu heaven in Ohio and if he feels like talking to you about it (personally I don't blame him if he doesn't) I recommended that he goes to the Columbus Ninjutsu Club since it has a Bujinkan base which he talks about it in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372065&postcount=25 This is the thing I think is funny about it that I found out about the Columbus Ninjutsu Club and its instructor Dan Buckley and Chris recommending it like he does in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372071&postcount=26 Now I'm factoring in his like of Christa Jacobson which was seen in this post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372205&postcount=31 and well I don't if you guys know this or not but Dan Buckley belongs to the Ninjutsu International Federation (NIF) as the Ohio representative which the head of it is Christa Jacobson. http://cjj2004.tripod.com/ninjutsuinternationalfederation/id91.html and here is his profile on his school's website using the same picture http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.shtml

 

[Aiki Lee]

Is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten a Japanese government document or is it a private document in a martial arts school in Japan that is privately held and maintained without Japanese government oversight ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugei_Ryuha_Daijiten

Also Himura so what John Keehan/ Count Dante dojo raided a school that owed him money then killed a student of that school and got a friend of his killed in the process AND WALKED AWAY WITH DOING IT.

And you are ok with this? To be associated even by degree with people that regard this lunatic as someone worth learning anything from?

Also here is something regarding James Mitose that I bet you guys didn't know about that the last 5 years of his life was spent in Folsom Prison because his last student Terry Lee/ Nimr Hassan killed someone that owed Mitose money as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mitose

What does this have to do with anything?

I already stated why I use Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's materials I see similarities to the moves I do in my American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido classes plus when I train with people that do MMA I have successfully used moves sparring against them from their books.

And this has what to do with ninjutsu exactly? You seem to be interested in them because what they do looks like MMA or Kenpo, or TKD in whcih case why not train in those arts? You can't mix a bunch of random techniques and call it ninjutsu. Thats like me throwing lettice, tomatoes, spinach, and carrots into a bowl, topping it with dressing and calling it a sandwhich.

Along with when I research the martial arts backgrounds of the people who founded or heavily influenced the styles that I study I see that the Koga clan was associated to that art

I am unclear as to what you are saying here, Koga is related to what exactly?

so since I see the connections to the arts I'm formally training in to Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (despite it being from separate clans of the Koga) I use them as a reference to my training in the martial arts.

You are not training in a real Koga ryu, the last known practitioner who could show proof of his claims was Fujita Seiko and he stated he did not have the intention to pass it on to anyone. Therefore, legitimate Koga ryu died with him.

I also had private conversations with Scorpion Clan too and to be honest he's in Ninjutsu heaven in Ohio and if he feels like talking to you about it (personally I don't blame him if he doesn't) I recommended that he goes to the Columbus Ninjutsu Club since it has a Bujinkan base which he talks about it in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372065&postcount=25 .

I would think ninjutsu heaven would be Japan, where ninjutsu is from. Your comment about me seems like a personal insult. you don't really know the extent of our conversation and frankly its not relevant to the discussion on this thread.

This is the thing I think is funny about it that I found out about the Columbus Ninjutsu Club and its instructor Dan Buckley and Chris recommending it like he does in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372071&postcount=26 Now I'm factoring in his like of Christa Jacobson which was seen in this post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372205&postcount=31 and well I don't if you guys know this or not but Dan Buckley belongs to the Ninjutsu International Federation (NIF) as the Ohio representative which the head of it is Christa Jacobson. http://cjj2004.tripod.com/ninjutsuinternationalfederation/id91.html and here is his profile on his school's website using the same picture http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.shtml .

Chris can speak for himself, but I will address some of what you are talking about from my perspective.

1. It does not look to me like Chris is recommending anything. He is stating the group started as a bujinkan group and therefore has some legitimacy. At least that is what I interpret from his post.
2. Other than a few things, I think Christa moves pretty well. The problem is not her movements I think but her claims of some Tomo Ryu or whatever she calls it. She makes claims that cannot be backed up. Its not that she isn't a good martial artist, its that she is teaching an art she either made up or was duped into believing was real. Either way Tomo ryu is probably fake.
3. Buckley's former association with the bujinkan gives him some credibility but partnership with jacobsin might lower it depending on why he did so. If he believes her koga claims it makes him seem foolish in my opinion. If he went to her for togakure ryu training or some other legitimate training she may have, then maybe he remains credible depending on what he is getting from her.

 

[ronin7411]

Are Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi Japanese government officials or just like your link says they recorded what they encountered in their lifetime ? Like I stated before show me a Japanese government document from the Japanese government that validates Toda lived and I read it too it appears that Watatani Kiyoshi was good friends with Takamatsu and was only a school teacher like Yamada Tadashi not Japanese government officials. Who would be able to provide land deeds to Toda's school and bone setting clinic along with him being included in a population census which all I see is a book not backed by Japanese government documents. Honestly I would train with John Keehan a guy that has mob connections and connections to the Black Stone Rangers (don't forget I'm from the Chicagoland area) plus he already killed people and used his training in doing so. Then since I already train in American Kenpo which James Mitose has a criminal background and conviction which resulted in him getting a life sentence and a majority of Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu practitioners were also members of the Black Dragon Society which Hapkido draws influence from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dragon_Society which was a Japanese intelligence gathering organization which was disbanded after Japan's defeat during WWII. So it isn't going to help me at all to deny it because they did it and I'm studying their styles (My American Kenpo lineage is related to a murderer and my Hapkido lineage is related to a Japanese terrorist organization) but I train with killers, terrorists, and murderers and blunt I love it and I would rather learn from a person who killed someone than someone who hasn't. Also I wasn't taking a jab at you Himura I was telling you that I had talked to Scorpion Clan in private as well and gave him some links to some Ninjutsu schools in Ohio to help him out with his training. He also has multiple options and lots of schools to chose from in the Ohio area since Hayes has his school as well as numerous other organizations that are X-kans too as well as other schools of Ninjutsu are in his area. Also I already said it I train in a school with instructors in American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido then when I got the chance I train in MMA as well and use their material as a reference for my training. Oh yeah I just wanted to bring it up to everyone's attention that even though you recommend one person and slap the other as a fraud then why don't you acknowledge the one that you're calling a fraud when the one you are recommending is associated with them and publicly admits to it.

 

[Indagator]

Ok, Ronin. I take it you intend to come to the party and show what you demand of others? Namely, Japanese government records of Shendai Kimitake or whatever the flying phalange y'all claim lineage from. I expect to see every ounce of evidence you demand of others substantiated by yourself against your own claims.

Secondly, wtf is with the murderer/terrorist thing? I have lived in Northern Ireland, and have many blood relatives who are involved with things I will not even elaborate on - one thing I will mention though, is that I have direct blood relatives who lived and were heavily involved (and one in particular who died in Long Kesh) with Northern Ireland's MP Bobby Sands. These are members of an organisation which is regarded by a certain few as a "terrorist" organisation.

I am being as candid as possible here, as I myself was raised elsewhere and have had little to no involvement with such elements, other than blood relations, however my point is this: Does this make me more or less of a ninjutsu practitioner...?

The answer... It has no bearing. Whatsoever. Not any. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And as for yuor statements? You are a legitimate ninjutsu practitioner because "Count Dante" was involved in some murders?

What the (d)uck are you talking about, you idiot?

I don't want to call you an idiot, but what you have said merits it, man.

Sooner or later the taste of gobshite is gonna fill your mouth to the brim. Might wanna buy some listerine, buddy.

 

[jks9199]

Thread locked pending staff review.

jks9199
Super Moderator