Masaaki Hatsumi

[Jay Bell]

He did not have his last dan rank registered with Japan and did not get the liscense. If you want the liscense (certificate from Hatsumi sensei) you pay the money no matter what rank you are.

Damn that $30!!!

When will the money making scheme end?!

 

[Scooter]

I spoke to Ed "Papa-san" Martin, shihan, regarding this thread...he said that you are incorrect Mr Annonymous (shadow) and WAY off the mark implying that Hatsumi is greedy. Now I trust his knowledge of Hatsumi and the workings of the Bujinkan a hell of alot more than yours...
he also agreed that someone who is so convinced that he is correct yet won't give any information about himself is probably full of something, but it's not the facts.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

I am sure Ed Martin does not think Hatsumi is greedy. But the fact remains that everyone who gets rank from Hatsumi pays for it, no matter what rank it is. Again, there are several members of the Bujinkan that can confirm this like Alex Mordine. People have blasted him for a lot of things, but they can not dispute it when he makes that statement about the cost of rank in the upper ranges.

These are his exact words he uses in his interview.

Some one once asked me, "What's the difference between a
Bujinkan 10th and 11th Dan?" My
answer was, "30,000 Yen."

You can talk about how he is a psycopath and does a lot of things he accuses Hatsumi of and I will not disagree. But No one has come out and proven him wrong in his statement above. 30,000 yen is almost 300 American dollars, not 30.

 

[heretic888]

Yes, and Mr. Mordine's blatantly self-promoting interview/article is proof of the sheer truthfulness of his claims, neh?? :shrug:

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
Yes, and Mr. Mordine's blatantly self-promoting interview/article is proof of the sheer truthfulness of his claims, neh?? :shrug:

When someone tells a truth that is unpleasent, try charecter assasination and resort to non related issues, eh?

Mr Mordine may be self promoting, but how does that automatically make everything he says a lie? That is the problem with a lot of the Bujinkan- they demonize anyone whom they can't deal with and speaks the truth. Have you gotten a high rank like he has? Have you dared call him a liar to his face?

And anyone who wants to remain in the good graces of the general Bujinkan population has to toe the line instead of talking about the 30,000 yen they have to pay for something like 7th dan. Hatsumi made that order rather than allow a free flow of ideas and conversation.

 

[heretic888]

When someone tells a truth that is unpleasent, try charecter assasination and resort to non related issues, eh?

No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination. There are many things I tolerate (especially online), but hypocrisy isn't one of them. :shrug:

Mr Mordine may be self promoting, but how does that automatically make everything he says a lie?

Because he is accusing Hatsumi-soke of things he does ten times over. Study a little Freud or Jung. They call it "projectionism".

That is the problem with a lot of the Bujinkan- they demonize anyone whom they can't deal with and speaks the truth.

Wow... more broad generalizations.

Have you gotten a high rank like he has?

No... but, then again, if I got a judan in only 10 years (about how long it takes most people to get to godan, I believe) I probably wouldn't be bragging about that, either.

Have you dared call him a liar to his face?

Have you dared call Hatsumi the things you accuse him of to his face??? Ahhh... hypocrisy.

And anyone who wants to remain in the good graces of the general Bujinkan population has to toe the line instead of talking about the 30,000 yen they have to pay for something like 7th dan.

Kinda funny how only this individual you have spoken with (who, suprise suprise, remains anonymous) was asked to pay this fee. All these other ranked Bujinkan-ers seem to have no idea what you're talking about.

Hatsumi made that order rather than allow a free flow of ideas and conversation.

Yes, because Hatsumi-soke is known for imposing a set way of thinking, acting, and teaching to his students, as evidenced by the obvious uniformity of the Bujinkan dojos.

 

[Scooter]

ok, ed martin outranks mordine, and has a much better reputation...as I already stated, he said you are wrong! Point blank. No charge over Judan, often no charge after godan. And any money from rank is split half to Hatsumi and half to the shidoshi doing the promotion.
no too mention, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find too many shihan that think anything much of mordine....

and yet again, how about some background from you and these "numerous" sources you have. You're quick to say that everyone else is dodging the facts, yet you haven't sustantiated anything yet....how bout we start with your name and actual training involvement in ninjutsu

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination. There are many things I tolerate (especially online), but hypocrisy isn't one of them. :shrug:

I stated that Hatsumi gave rank for money to those willing to pay for it. You may not like it, but until you show something that clearly states the way things are done that everyone can see for themselves, then my view on things is no less valid than anyone else.

Originally posted by heretic888
Because he is accusing Hatsumi-soke of things he does ten times over. Study a little Freud or Jung. They call it "projectionism".

He may accuse Hatsumi of being motivated by business, but the fact that you pay 30,000 yen is just a fact. Talk to Dale Seago, Bill Atikins, Mark O'Brian Ralph Severe or anyone else that has the "nosebleed ranks" and ask them if they had to pay for ranks over fifth dan. Go ahead, I dare you.

Originally posted by heretic888
Have you dared call Hatsumi the things you accuse him of to his face??? Ahhh... hypocrisy.

Are yo so sure I have not.

Originally posted by heretic888
Kinda funny how only this individual you have spoken with (who, suprise suprise, remains anonymous) was asked to pay this fee. All these other ranked Bujinkan-ers seem to have no idea what you're talking about.

First of all Individuals. Note, I used the PLURAL. There are more than one. Go ahead, ask the guys I mentioned above. I dare you.

Originally posted by heretic888
Yes, because Hatsumi-soke is known for imposing a set way of thinking, acting, and teaching to his students, as evidenced by the obvious uniformity of the Bujinkan dojos.

Hatsumi has impsed a way of THINKING!!!! My god!! You really are ready to drink the kool aide if he says so. He does not want people talking about how much he makes off of ranks in open forumes, which is why anyone who has a rank above fifth registered in Japan has avoided this conversation.

Originally posted by heretic888

Originally posted by scooter
ok, ed martin outranks mordine, and has a much better reputation...as I already stated, he said you are wrong!

About Hatsumi being motivated by greed. Which is his opinion. And he has not come on this board to state this. We only have your word for it. Let him come on this board and state for the record that he has never paid for any rank above fifth and knows of no one who has.

Why don't we end this bickering by asking someone with a rank above fifth dan to state in a public forum how much he paid for his rank and if he knows of other people who have paid 30,000 yen for it. I will take a silence as a tacit admission that what I say is true. Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here. But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.

I am getting tired of being attacked by those who know so little about their own orginization. Let someone with with a registered rank in Japan have the courage to say that what I say is false.

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by arnisador
Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Ok, I will try. But when someone starts there post with the words, "No offense, shad, but both your posts here and Mr. Mordine's article on his site have done nothing but a failed attempt at character assassination." it tends to come across as a thinly veiled attack. I really want to know who Heritic888's teacher is. I really do suspect he is not a member of the Bujinkan, but rather a member of an orginization that wants it to look bad.

 

[Captain Harlock]

I will take a silence as a tacit admission that what I say is true. Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here. But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.

Dumb question time:

I once heard it said that one cannot prove a negative. The person who said this was very learned and wise. How is it that you can find proof in the un-provable?

Your information in many areas is impressive. Your skills as a debater however are lacking. You are obviously well past the point of losing your temper, and it is showing. Rather than show facts, you become abusive and insulting, both signs of a poor argument.

I have quoted a small portion of your ranting. Please, prove them to also be true.

I repeat them for simplicity.

Any Bujinkan member who says the truth will be persecuted, so they will not want to come here.

Please identify any Bujinkan members who have said the truth and been persecuted in the past.

I will take a silence as a tacit admission that what I say is true.

Have you considered that perhaps they consider you beneath notice?

But the mere fact that they don't post will give proof to the truth I state.

So, the fact that they are not here to reply, and most likely are unaware of the argument is besides the point?

Ok then. Your great grandfather was a closet cross dresser and an embezzler. If that's not true, have him post. Otherwise, it must be true by your own logic.

Things are so much easier when you leave reason and the like at the door.



:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Ok, I will try.

A point of general information:

A posted warning like this is meant to be a notice to all parties. The fact that it follows your post does not necessarily mean that it was directed at you.

In this thread I hope that all parties will bring the discussion back to a polite and respectful one. The topic is quite fair to discuss, but we must insist that it be done in a friendly way.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Dumb question time:

I once heard it said that one cannot prove a negative. The person who said this was very learned and wise. How is it that you can find proof in the un-provable?

In this case, there are hundreds of Bujinkan members who are above the rank of fifth dan who are active on the internet. The fact that not one of them is willing to comment on this is pretty telling, don't you think?

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Please identify any Bujinkan members who have said the truth and been persecuted in the past.

Take a look at how people have blasted Alex Mordine in this thread. He has many faults, but the way people jump on him for telling the truth about the cost of rank is most telling. Do you think the people I know want to complain publically after seeing this?

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Have you considered that perhaps they consider you beneath notice?

Nice insult. You do your orginization proud if you are a Bujinkan member. But if that is the case, then why is everyone screaming so shrilly at the little kid commenting on the lack of clothes on the king?

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
So, the fact that they are not here to reply, and most likely are unaware of the argument is besides the point?

So why does not someone get some of the people who are active on other forums to join Martialtalk and respond if they are not scared of the truth? I have been part of this conversation for how long and no one with a rank registered in Japan above fifth dan wants to join in?

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Ok then. Your great grandfather was a closet cross dresser and an embezzler. If that's not true, have him post. Otherwise, it must be true by your own logic.

Again, nice insult. Grandad never bothered to use a computer. Several hundred Bujinkan members above fifth dan can and are avoiding this conversation. I wonder why.

Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Things are so much easier when you leave reason and the like at the door.

Again, great insult. I wonder why some people are so involved in insulting me rather than get someone over fifth dan to state the truth. Gad, could it be they do not want someone to tell the truth? Or perhaps they have tried to contact people over fifth dan and they are refusing to respond???

All you people would be much better served by doing something usefull rather than sending insults my way.

 

[Scooter]

look, I posted what I was asked to by Ed Martin, (13th dan Bujinkan)...he didn't directly as feels no need to waste his time in this matter. So you do have your "nosebleed" high rank commenting on this.
I have asked (as have others) NUMEROUS times for your background in this matter, with NO response. All you do is spin!
Enough of this....if you have anything else, don't say it, SHOW it!

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter


Take a look at how people have blasted Alex Mordine in this thread. He has many faults, but the way people jump on him for telling the truth about the cost of rank is most telling.

Hey Shadow, A question...

My old Bujinkan instructor once told me a story when I started my training YEARS ago... Now, to you and evertyone, I have no PROOF that this is true, like I said it was a story from my old instructor... it was About a mid level Dan ranking instructor who went to Soke Hatsumi and DEMANDED his next rank. Soke Thought about it, and then told him OK, but it costs X amount of dollars. (I dont remember the amount he siad, but it was high) The Dan paid him and Soke said "Ok your now * Dan" When the guy left, another high ranking Dan that witnessed the exchange asked Soke Hatsumi WHY he gave into the other guy and sold him his rank. Hatsumi told him... "It doesnt matter, he demaded and I yeilded. His rank is meaningless he is like a paper tiger."

Could Alex Mordine have been involved in somthing like this and thats why he insists that there are exorbat fees and such?

I have to admit, (and this doesnt come from being Bujinkan) that if someone did that to me, Id take em to the bank too. I do PC repair on the side and charge 60 bucks an hour to go onsite and do it... if someone DEMANDED i show up and fix it, Id say sure but i charge 150 an hour, 2 hours minimum... If they were still willing to pay, well...

The only Higher ranking (Former) Bujinkan member that has addressed this directly on the Forum is Jay who stated the fee is only 30 bucks... I also think that 30 bucks for a BB rank, even IF its being paid over 5th is NOT bad consdiering a lot of TKD schools charge 100+ per BB rank...

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Technopunk,

I know of current Bujinkan members who have let slip that they have to pay 30.000 yen per rank. They do not dare talk about it in public, and you can see that they are not coming on this board to dispute this fact. They still train and are members of good standing. But when they get together for a few drinks they sit around and grumble on how much their last rank cost them.

The funny thing is, 30.000 is actually kind of cheap for a rank in Japan. Some orginizations charge way more than that. The controversy is that a large orgnization may give only one or two seventh dans a year, if that. There has to be four or five people that get ranks while in Japan from Hatsumi every week.

Technopunk, if you want proof of what I say, take aside someone who has such a rank and ask them if they paid for it. The story here is changing. People at first tried to say that there was no money paid for rank over fifth. Now they are trying to say that it is not all that much. All ranks in the Bujinkan pay 30.000 to Hatsumi if they want their rank recognized in Japan. Go ask this question on Kutaki.org and see if the question is allowed to stand or if it is deleted by the administrator.

 

[Deaf]

Well considering that pretty much all martial art organizations charge fees for ranking, what is the big deal? Whether or not Hatsumi Sensei charges for ranks? And even if the person doesn't really deserve it etc.?

Does it affect you? You training?

In terms of why not any Shidoshi should get online and "disclaim" your "facts"? You ever stop to think that they just don't give a crap? They deal with other day to day activities and other annoyances? Why participate in a pointless debates such as this?

So if you truly need to know... then ask them yourself! I DO NOT need to prove you wrong or otherwise so it is not my worry. But from the looks of it, it is definitely a troublesome worry for you. So the burden of proof is on you. One article from a dude that is not exactly a "model" of confidence and seems to be a bit "off" in the reality plane is not proof to many of us here. But if it is proof enough for you then great. Topic closed! Move on! Or as I have heard from many... "SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!"

~Deaf~

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Deaf
Well considering that pretty much all martial art organizations charge fees for ranking, what is the big deal? Whether or not Hatsumi Sensei charges for ranks? And even if the person doesn't really deserve it etc.?

Does it affect you? You training?

That sound you hear is me getting up on a chair and applauding..

Originally posted by Deaf
In terms of why not any Shidoshi should get online and "disclaim" your "facts"? You ever stop to think that they just don't give a crap? They deal with other day to day activities and other annoyances? Why participate in a pointless debates such as this?

True. If they don't mind that I am talking about how Hatsumi charges 30.000 yen for any rank, then I don't expect them to show up and say otherwise. But if what I say is not true, then I can't see why someone like Ed Martin who posts on e-budo can't join this forum and state things publically and for the record. If he does not care enough to come over and say things himself, why are other people getting their panties in a wad?

Originally posted by Deaf
So if you truly need to know... then ask them yourself!

Oh, I have heard it from several high ranking Bujinkan members. It is the other side that is screaming that won't start a thread on Kutaki for fear of the answer.

I have stated what I have observed and heard. The other side tried to state at first that there was no money charged for rank above fifth, then tried to portray it as not being all that much. Alex Mordine has stated that 30.000 yen is the rate of a rank at any level in an article you all can read for yourself. If you want to disprove what he says- go ahead and try. I am getting sick of the tactic of "don't listen to him- he's a bad man" that happens whenever someone states something less than glorious about the Bujinkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

Ranks typically fall into about $100 per Dan grade...IE...Shodan is 100, Nidan is 200 and so on until Godan. Actually, Godan is about 300 last I heard <??> After Godan it seems like a case by case basis.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, there you go.