Masaaki Hatsumi

[Cryozombie]

Im curious, Shadowhunter,

What is your style, what arts do you practice, and your ranks? You have nothing listed in your profile, and I was wondering where your expertise comes from.

I personaly am the first to admit, I am low ranked, and perhaps less "educated" in the department than many many here, but of all the arts I HAVE studied, even at my low rank, the arts I have learned in the Bujinkan seem FAR more effective FOR ME than the Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Kyokushinkai i previously studied.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Technopunk
Im curious, Shadowhunter,

What is your style, what arts do you practice, and your ranks? You have nothing listed in your profile, and I was wondering where your expertise comes from.

Does it matter for the subject at hand? Why not stay on subject instead of acting like a bunch of fraud busters who are no longer welcome at martialtalk? You seem to be trying to descredit me since you can't deal with what I say. Stop it and keep on subject.

Originally posted by Technopunk
I personaly am the first to admit, I am low ranked, and perhaps less "educated" in the department than many many here, but of all the arts I HAVE studied, even at my low rank, the arts I have learned in the Bujinkan seem FAR more effective FOR ME than the Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Kyokushinkai i previously studied.

And what does what you feel about your art have to do with the subject at hand?

One more thing, while you were in all those other arts, were you aware that you were not in very effective arts? If so, why are you so certain that you are in one now? Ever had to try your techniques against a crack head with a knife?

 

[Cryozombie]

Shadowhunter,

Im sorry if you think I am trying to fraud bust... I was asking "WHY" your opinion is more relevant than others, it would be easy for anyone to say, "I know what I am talking about" but before I took your opinion at face value, I simply wanted to know that you had some background in somthing that could lend it weight as somthing other than opinion before I listen blindly to someone who could be nothing more than a troll.

I could very easily say Kung Fu Sucks, no one should study it, but having no real background in it, it would be stupid for people to listen to me...

Also, I did, in all three cases, come to know very quickly that what I was studying wasn't going to work. That is why I left all three schools.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok,
I will throw the question right back at you. Why should my statments be held any less respected than any other here? All of the guys who have recieved rank from Hatsumi have a stake in saying that it actually meant something, rather than just served as a means for Hatsumi to buy more booze after teaching a long class.

Everyone here is stating with such authority that there is some sort of method to the madness of Bujinkan rank. Ok, show me it.

All told, my explination is the only one that holds water.

 

[Scooter]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter

All told, my explination is the only one that holds water.

It hasn't yet! You're doing a very poor job of spinning this but have yet to back anything up. The question of your background is relavent as if you have no experience in the system, then who are you to say anything about it?? The very fact that you won't even state your name or affiliation speaks to me )and probably others on here) that you're a bitter kid who is upset because he didn't get the rank he felt he deserved but didn't earn, so now is lashing out by attacking Hatsumi and his orginization. It is a known fact by anyone involved that there is no fee for rank above godan in the Bujinkan. In fact, the previous dan ranks, only HALF the money goes to Hatsumi, the other half goes to the shidoshi granting the rank! If he's so money hungry, why not take it all? As far as "underqualified high ranks" in the Bujinkan, is it any different than any other art? TKD is rampant with it, as are many arts. But as you like to state, back to the point at hand....there are no charges for rank over godan! In fact, part of the fee for godan goes to charity....yeah, sounds REAL greedy!
So, if you are going to make accusations like that, PROVE it! And tell us WHY we should believe you (such as your affiliation with the Bujinkan),

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Scooter
It is a known fact by anyone involved that there is no fee for rank above godan in the Bujinkan.

You see, there you are speaking from ignorance. Alex Mordine has backed up on line that ranks above fifth dan also pay fees. That caused such a scandal that Hatsumi asked George Ohashi to post a "request" that people do not discuss rank fees on line. Why would he issue such a gag order if the matter was not relevent?

For that matter, why has not anyone above the rank of fifth dan come into this discussion and stated that they never had to pay for their seventh or eighth dan? Ehhh?

Hatsumi makes cash off of every rank that is registered with him. It is a pretty good racket. Everyone is happy. So why are you screaming so shrilly when the truth is talked about in public? What are you so scared of? Why do you care? Why spend so much time trying to demonize me instead of calling up one of those nose bleed ranks and actually getting the story from them? Why are you so scared to ask someone like Jay Bell if he payed Hatsumi for his last rank?

But no, it is easier for you to attack, .attack attack the guy who stands up and says that the emporer has no clothes

 

[Bujingodai]

I would also agree that those posing the more aggressive arguements here are not holding as much water as maybe steam. Shadowhunter, you obviously are near the Ninjutsu scene. I am also an independent, I'd like to talk. Email me if you would. Now Scott you state some things that don't sound too secure. Have you seen Bujinkan reports financially? What portion goes to charity, have we proof? and for the ranking money 1/2 to Shidoshi, I saw the entire money I paid to the Shidoshi Kai go into an envelope to Japan, not my Shidoshi when I received my Yudansha. Just looking as to the source of that. Also having been to a few dojo, the prices are all pretty different.

But also I'd state for the record that Shadowhunter seems to be a little aggressive with this and has a bone to pick. So it would seem.

Can you please give us your name?

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Ok,
I will throw the question right back at you. Why should my statments be held any less respected than any other here?

Shadow, again, I am sorry if I havnt been clear in what I asked and why... I was just wondering what your connection was. It's not neccessarily that I don't respect your statements, it's just i know the background and where some of the other posters are coming from in theirs. For all I know you could just be someone who has no knowlage of the Bujinkan, or Soke Hatsumi. who heard from a guy who knows a guy who took a class with... kind of thing. I really am out to learn somthing here, not point fingers and bust frauds!

But to really To be honest, the reason I asked is because I was curious if you had affiliation with the Genbukan or another (I hate to use the term) "rival" ninjustsu organization and if that is where your bias came from... or if you were a former bujinkan student who got burned, etc etc...

Really man, I am not trying to start anything and again, I am sorry if it seems that way... I just dont know where you are coming from with your info... and call me analytical, but I like to know a little bit before I throw blind faith around... that's why I asked in the first place.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
] Why are you so scared to ask someone like Jay Bell if he payed Hatsumi for his last rank?

Jay Bell,

DID you pay Soke Hatsumi for your last rank?

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok Technopunk, I understand.

I can not really talk too much about who I am or what experience I have had with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. But trust me when I say that I am parroting a lot of complaints that some current Bujinkan members make in private, but can't in an open forum. Please don't ask me to mention their names, they will become targets then.

They enjoy the Bujinkan and are very competent martial artists. The fact that Hatsumi gives out ranks to rank hungry people for cash does not intrude on their training and they don't care what other groups think of them.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok, I will respect that. Thank you.

 

[Jay Bell]

Wow...I didn't catch this thread until just now.

This is a difficult topic to discuss. The question was asked if I paid for my last rank to Hatsumi sensei. No, I honestly did not. My teacher at the time did not require all ranking to be purchased, unless you wanted the license to go with it.

Alex Mordine was mentioned a handfull of times. I think bringing him into the mix of things, though his opinions are valid as any, isn't quite fair. Alex, from my opinions, has far too many axes to grind for me to lend an ear to what he has to say. He practices much of what he attempts to crucify Hatsumi sensei of.

So the underline question is whether or not Hatsumi sensei sells rank. Yes...he sure does. Is this a bad thing? I guess it depends on the angle that it's viewed. While I always had issues with the reality of it while I was in the Bujinkan, it was wasted emotion. Hatsumi sensei often gives people what they want to bring a smile to their face...oft-times for a price. Much of the time, this does nothing much then concrete their own jaded egos of who and what they are in the whole scheme of things.

A lot of people in the Bujinkan protest that rank has no importance. I don't agree. Case in point...would you prefer to train with a Sandan or a Sankyu at face value? But when the discussions come about...the same people that chose the Sandan without hesitation are the same people claiming that rank has no importance. Odd...

I think it's unfair to set Hatsumi sensei in the light that he's out to make a quick buck and nothing more. There *is* a very concrete lesson in what he's doing. People that buy rank...well....let's simply say that they aren't seen in a very high light. What might have been shared with them may no longer be. It says volumes of their character and what they consider important. Face...not what's inside.

This is a great conversation...but please, let's keep the elevated emotions at bay. Everyone has really good and valid points...as long as things are kept to a low roar and civil. It's *very* difficult for people outside of *any* organization to understand the inner-workings from looking through a window.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Jay,

if I'm reading you right, he will sell it, but the person who bought the rank then ends up more on the outside than in, and as a result they tend to be 'left out' of the 'real deep stuff'.

Is this right?

If so, how can someone know who paid and who earned, since on the surface a 5th is a 5th is a 5th. (unless we're talkin good brandy, in which case, all bets are off.)

:asian:

 

[Jay Bell]

Bob,

That's pretty much spot on. Honestly...through training and life, peoples eyes tend to open and their sensitivity to "see" what their instructors or other instructors are about are fine tuned...if they are going about things with the correct heart.

There's a story (tale?) of the 1000th Godan passing. Someone made mention of it being the 1000th Godan to pass the test. Hatsumi sensei chuckled and said, "Yes! 500 good, 500 bad!" No one listens though...

 

[heretic888]

Very interesting.

Like I said before, Hatsumi-soke's leadership strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature. In my opinion.

Laterz.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
Like I said before, Hatsumi-soke's leadership strategies strike me as very Darwinian in nature. In my opinion.

I can understand why you and Jay want to believe there is a method to the way Masaaki Hatsumi does things that makes some sort of sense.

But if there was some sense, then there should be some sort of pattern visible to us. There would be a reason that applies to everyone equally. There just does not seem to be any.

And you would think that Hatsumi sensei would care about the students that train under incompetent, but highly ranked teachers. I can not see any caring. If two teachers gave a seminar in a town on the same day, and the less competent one had a higher rank on the advertisments, then he would have more students show up for his.

People in the Bujinkan ***** a lot about bad instructors and moan about the poor students who pay good money to learn crap from them, but they never have the courage to point out that the ultimate responsibility for the way things are done rests with Hatsumi sensei.

 

[Scooter]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Ok Technopunk, I understand.

I can not really talk too much about who I am or what experience I have had with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. But trust me when I say...

How very convenient...how can you expect anyone seriously to take what you have to say into consideration when you refuse to state who you are and what you know. Currently you're no more than any other annonymous internet poster with no knowledge or proof to back up your comments. Please us some background on you and perhaps people will listen to what you have to say.
Until then.... :shrug:

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Scooter
How very convenient...how can you expect anyone seriously to take what you have to say into consideration when you refuse to state who you are and what you know. Currently you're no more than any other annonymous internet poster with no knowledge or proof to back up your comments. Please us some background on you and perhaps people will listen to what you have to say.
Until then.... :shrug:

But I am the one who has been proven correct on things like paying for rank over fifth degree. The folks who took the time to flame me were proven wrong.

But I understand your position. It is easier to try to descredit the bearer of bad news than to deal with the obvious truths he brings to the discussion.

 

[heretic888]

I can understand why you and Jay want to believe there is a method to the way Masaaki Hatsumi does things that makes some sort of sense.

Oh geez... :shrug:

But if there was some sense, then there should be some sort of pattern visible to us.

No, not necessarily.

There would be a reason that applies to everyone equally.

Again, not necessarily. Hatsumi most likely makes his decisions on ranks on a case by case individual basis.

There just does not seem to be any.

Rather, none that you can see. Contrary to what you may believe, shadow, you are not omniscient.

And you would think that Hatsumi sensei would care about the students that train under incompetent, but highly ranked teachers. I can not see any caring.

Heh. I don't think you quite understand what I meant by "Darwinism".

If two teachers gave a seminar in a town on the same day, and the less competent one had a higher rank on the advertisments, then he would have more students show up for his.

No, not necessarily.

People in the Bujinkan ***** a lot about bad instructors and moan about the poor students who pay good money to learn crap from them, but they never have the courage to point out that the ultimate responsibility for the way things are done rests with Hatsumi sensei.

I believe someone on E-Budo described it as Hatsumi-soke giving you the rope you need to hang yourself. If hanging yourself is what you want to do.

But I am the one who has been proven correct on things like paying for rank over fifth degree. The folks who took the time to flame me were proven wrong.

How have you been "proven" right?? The only person here who has referred to their own personal experience on the matter is Jay, and he categorically stated he didn't pay for his last dan ranking.

But I understand your position. It is easier to try to descredit the bearer of bad news than to deal with the obvious truths he brings to the discussion.

Uhhh.... right.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
No, not necessarily.

But if there is nothing we can see and point to, how the hell can anyone state with any certainty that there is a method to the way Hatsumi sensei ranks people. How can you say what you do without the slightest bit of proof to back it up? If you can't show a pattern of behavior visible for everyone to see, then what you say is merely your theory that you want to believe.

Originally posted by heretic888
Heh. I don't think you quite understand what I meant by "Darwinism".

So good people who do not know any better (because what student starts knowing all the answers) can study under a goof ball instructor and Hatsumi sensei does not care as long as he gets his share of the cash?

Are students walking in the door supposed to know the internal politics of the Bujinkan? All they know is that certain instructors can show proof that they are highly ranked by Hatsumi sensei. They do not know that Hatsumi sensei gives ranks to morons as well. They study under poor instructors that have what to most people would be a word of reccomendation by Hatsumi sensei as to their abilities.

And the morons in the Bujinkan, they are still there are they not? People still pay people them money to train under them, correct? They pay off Hatsumi for the rank of their students and they continue to train. How is that supposed to weed out the poor students and leave behind the better ones?

Originally posted by heretic888
How have you been "proven" right?? The only person here who has referred to their own personal experience on the matter is Jay, and he categorically stated he didn't pay for his last dan ranking.

He did not have his last dan rank registered with Japan and did not get the liscense. If you want the liscense (certificate from Hatsumi sensei) you pay the money no matter what rank you are.

Take a little less time attacking me and more time understaning the subject and we might have more time off line to train. It is kind of a waste of my time to be spending all this time telling you the facts of life about your own orginization when taking your head out of the sand and checking things out on your own could achieve the same result.