Martial Arts Certifications

[floweringknight]

I actually had a spy sent to my school from the "other school" to steal technique, etc. So they got white belt techniques......and the funny part? These are what they are now teaching their Black Belts! I offered to go over and make sure they were doing them correctly......The idea didn't go over well, but the look on their faces was truly priceless!!!I have my certificates on the wall, but I don't flaunt them. Just as a Dr. or a lawyer would.

 

[shesulsa]

...So they got white belt techniques......and the funny part? These are what they are now teaching their Black Belts! I offered to go over and make sure they were doing them correctly......The idea didn't go over well, but the look on their faces was truly priceless!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[MichiganTKD]

I guess we will all have to role with the punches. No pun intended. As long as we don't give them anything that they(the polititions) can use against us then we won't have to worry about it.

Do any of you use the certifications to help with your student recruitment or with students retention? I have seen many less than average instructors, ok they are really poor, use their certifications to get students and to "steal" students from other instructors. Very dis-honorable, but effective.

I generally relied on two methods to increase enrollment:
1. Letting the work speak for itself (thank you Johnny Carson)
2. Word of mouth. People will not recommend bad schools to their friends and family.

 

[Basicman]

I think the certificate is meaningless to everyone but the person who earned it. I think posting it so everyone can see is one thing, but explaining to the average person who I got this from, would be like a Doctor trying to explain to you who his/her professors were. People don't care. I think the certificate is more for the holder. I know when I look at mine, it reminds about that period in my life what I was doing with myself. Not only through the martial arts, but other personal events. That certificate has meaning for me, but my wife could care less. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a piece of paper, what's inside the person is what matters more.

 

[Andy Cap]

If the legislatures of other states follow that of New Jersey and require someone to be certified before he/she can teach MA publicly, the Legislature may create a commission to set up the certification process.

The Commissioners may all be Brazilian Ju-jitsu folks, or Tai Chi Chuan practitioners, or (name an art other than those you practice here). This may mean that your certifications (and mine will NOT be recognized.

I think it ironic that I have a document stating I am certified as an Instructor by the World HQ of TKD but the State of MI may decide my credential isn't worth the paper its printed on.

Miles

Government has no place in martial arts.

This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business. I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate. I care not what any of you think. What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction. I live martial arts through my students and my school. The rest is external and insignificant.

This sounds harsh, but I do not mean it to be. I simply mean that I practice martial arts out of love,a dn i teach martial arts for the very same reason. The people that worry about certificates and stripes and ribbons and trophies are worried about recognition. Do your art for yourself, and the rest does not matter. I have been a black belt then a white belt, and then a midnight blue belt, and then again to a black belt. I could care less what belt or certificate I have. Actuall, I have made a serious error - I do care because my certificate was from a man I completely respect and it has another man's name on it that I owe so much to. It has my instructor's signature, adn it has Hwang Kee's signature. This is important to me for sentimental reasons, and has no bearing on teh value in any other sense as far as I am concerned.

So, if you are concerned about the organization because you worry about who is going to honor that certificate, well you have greater problems. You have already decided that you are leaving that organization at some point, and need your rank to stand up. Good luck.

 

[MichiganTKD]

One serious problem I have with government boards to recognize instructors:

The government knows squat about martial arts, because martial arts are a recent development in this country. Because the government knows nothing about martial arts, much less Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido etc., they would undoubtably think one instructor was as good as another and anyone with a certain rank, or even claiming a certain rank would, in their eyes, be just as qualified to sit on the board. Who's to say that some joker who claims 7th Dan in the "World Tae Kwon Do League" or some Soke organization wouldn't get a spot on the Board? The gov't may very well think "He says he's 8th Dan, so he must be." It's different with baseball or basketball. We know who the legitimate players and figures are. Not so with martial arts. Could very well be the ones who are in magazines often might be picked because their face recognition is higher. Their credentials might be in serious question, but the gov't might say "He's in magazines often, he must know what he's doing."

 

[Han-Mi]

It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held. My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs. Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within

 

[Andy Cap]

It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held. My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs. Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within

I agree. My current instructor accepted my rank. He asked to see my certificate initially, but in truth never saw it and didn't care. As he said, he knows a master when he sees one. A most flattering statement for me. I agree with it though. I know a martial artists training by watching them and listening to them for a few days. I don't need to see a piece of paper from some overblown commercial organization.

 

[Miles]

It's great to have some kind of quality control, but I have seen people with WTF certificates that in my oppinion did not deserve the rank they held.

So your problem is really with the person who recommended them for Kukkiwon rank advancement, not the Kukkiwon. The WTF does not issue rank certificates (though it did for a short time in the mid-70s).

My rank is certified under a grand master that is integral in the Kukkiwon, but is devoid of the actual number, and that and my skill has been enough for all whom I have met. Those who have questioned my fellow students rank have eaten their words after training with them or simply watching them perfom the hyungs.

Han-Mi, if I read the above quote properly, your instructor is Kukkiwon-certified but does not apply for Kukkiwon rank certificates for his/her students?

I too believe you can be technically proficient without having any sort of certification-Kung Fu folks have been doing this for centuries. I do think however, that since the TKD pioneers sacrificed so much so that TKD could be an international art, that if you have the ability to provide Kukkiwon certification to your students, you should do so. This is my opinion.

Certification is imortant for public knowledge, within the school itself and within yourself, all that counts is the ability you hold within

Actually, I have never ever had a prospective student ask to see my certification. They are not display on a wall at the dojang. I keep them in a suitcase in my basement.

Miles

 

[Miles]

Government has no place in martial arts.

I agree with the sentiment but the earlier posts were a concern about the future. The government regulates the air we breathe, water we drink, food we eat and the homes we live in. Government regulation permeates pretty much every aspect of our daily lives for better or worse. So it is not too far-fetched to think that it could affect who can hold themself out as a martial arts instructor or not.

This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business.

I know I will never quit my day job to be a fulltime martial arts instructor.

I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate. I care not what any of you think. What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction. I live martial arts through my students and my school. The rest is external and insignificant.

I also agree with this sentiment. However, I also care deeply about Taekwondo. I do not care what people think of me, but I took an oath to teach others about Kukki-Taekwondo and that is what I try to do both in and out of the dojang.

This sounds harsh, but I do not mean it to be. I simply mean that I practice martial arts out of love,a dn i teach martial arts for the very same reason.

Andy, this does not sound harsh. I think it is great that you (as I and hopefully all the others on MT) practice (and teach if applicable) their chosen art out of love.

I do care because my certificate was from a man I completely respect and it has another man's name on it that I owe so much to. It has my instructor's signature, adn it has Hwang Kee's signature. This is important to me for sentimental reasons, and has no bearing on teh value in any other sense as far as I am concerned.

Very cool!

So, if you are concerned about the organization because you worry about who is going to honor that certificate, well you have greater problems. You have already decided that you are leaving that organization at some point, and need your rank to stand up. Good luck.

Not sure to whom or where this was directed?

Miles

 

[DuneViking]

Certification is not such a big deal in my eyes, as long as you can show that you deserve the rank you hold.
Han-Mi

Great Bottom Line!!!

I generally relied on two methods to increase enrollment:
1. Letting the work speak for itself (thank you Johnny Carson)
2. Word of mouth. People will not recommend bad schools to their friends and family.
MiTKD

Good Points.


Government has no place in martial arts.
This is the way I look at it...I am not concerned about Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do or any other Do growing into some huge business. I am not concerned about what the general populace thinks of my rank or my certificate. I care not what any of you think. What matters is my students and what they think and what they get from my instruction. I live martial arts through my students and my school. The rest is external and insignificant.
Andy Cap

Our Grandmaster uses a quote from Mas Oyama which I think is appropriate along the lines of the thoughts expressed above. It goes something like this " Perfection of Character. All true schools of Karate have this in common . . . nothing else is significant"

Many of our BBs do not teach as a business, we teach for the love of teaching and sharing martial arts. We have "day jobs" to support ourselves. We collect fees to pay the rent and make little if any profit, which goes back into the business for mats or protective gear to share or to help those students who can't pay. The certificates we issue have meaning to us, that our grandmaster approves of us advancing in rank. We also have a tradition of having others who have helped train the student to also provide a concurring signature. One of my most meaningful certificates has the signature of one of our instructors who has passed away, and it is a gup certificate.

As for Government in MA, I hope it never happens!

 

[Han-Mi]

Han-Mi, if I read the above quote properly, your instructor is Kukkiwon-certified but does not apply for Kukkiwon rank certificates for his/her students?


Miles

My instructor is a fifth dan without kukkiwon certification, though he did test for his 4th dan at the kukkiwon. His instructor is a 6th dan, but I do not know how far up he tested with kukkiwon certification before he stopped. His instructor is Grand Master Ahn Chong Ho, 9th dan. The reason we choose not to obtain certification through the kukkiwon is because It is simply too expensive and can be political. Small town, small budgets.

Figured I would clarify

 

[Miles]

My instructor is a fifth dan without kukkiwon certification, though he did test for his 4th dan at the kukkiwon. His instructor is a 6th dan, but I do not know how far up he tested with kukkiwon certification before he stopped. His instructor is Grand Master Ahn Chong Ho, 9th dan. The reason we choose not to obtain certification through the kukkiwon is because It is simply too expensive and can be political. Small town, small budgets.

Figured I would clarify

Thanks for the clarification! If he is a 4th dan Kukkiwon, he can certify student through Kukkiwon directly. The costs for this are not too expensive (again this is inn my opinion). Here is the breakdown off the top of my head: $70 for 1st; $90 for 2nd, $120 for 3rd, $150 for 4th. It can get expensive when there are other costs involved such as renting a hall, paying for dinners, etc. Some organizations make you get a certificate from them before you can apply for the Kukkiwon certificate. But the costs to the Kukkiwon have not changed in a very long time.

Good luck with your training!

Miles

 

[Miles]

Our Grandmaster uses a quote from Mas Oyama which I think is appropriate along the lines of the thoughts expressed above. It goes something like this " Perfection of Character. All true schools of Karate have this in common . . . nothing else is significant"

This is a paraphrase of the Shotokan creed, one line of which says as students, "We will strive for the perfection of character." GM Oyama was for a time a student of Gichin Funakoshi.

Many of our BBs do not teach as a business, we teach for the love of teaching and sharing martial arts. We have "day jobs" to support ourselves. We collect fees to pay the rent and make little if any profit, which goes back into the business for mats or protective gear to share or to help those students who can't pay.

This is essentially what I have done. I have a day job which fulfills my intellectual and financial needs. Teaching and training in TKD fulfills other needs.

As for Government in MA, I hope it never happens!

Ditto!

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

Obviously Governmnet is already involved in MA - TKD predominently. However, the difference is that TKD is an integral part of Korean culture. Every man enters the military and every man leanrs TKD. If the US gov't got involved, they would just be looking for a way to tax it more and generate more revenue for the state. Because US gov't does not share the martial artist's love of their art.

 

[Pale Rider]

For myself, I don't really care if I receive a certificate from some "Grand" system. Most of the times the "Large" systems don't actually get to see you during the test. I would rather have my rank through a local instructor.

 

[IcemanSK]

Thanks for the clarification! If he is a 4th dan Kukkiwon, he can certify student through Kukkiwon directly. The costs for this are not too expensive (again this is inn my opinion). Here is the breakdown off the top of my head: $70 for 1st; $90 for 2nd, $120 for 3rd, $150 for 4th. It can get expensive when there are other costs involved such as renting a hall, paying for dinners, etc. Some organizations make you get a certificate from them before you can apply for the Kukkiwon certificate. But the costs to the Kukkiwon have not changed in a very long time.

Good luck with your training!

Miles

I'm learning about an organization that has you get their certificate before they recommend you to Kukiwon. I didn't have that experience before. Is this practice normal? I could see where it might be a good idea if the person testing wasn't your student all the way through & came to your school. I understand it, but it seems to me a bit like dangling a carrot in from of a mule. But, then again, I'm not known for my patience.

 

[Miles]

I'm learning about an organization that has you get their certificate before they recommend you to Kukiwon. I didn't have that experience before. Is this practice normal? I could see where it might be a good idea if the person testing wasn't your student all the way through & came to your school. I understand it, but it seems to me a bit like dangling a carrot in from of a mule. But, then again, I'm not known for my patience.

Welcome to MT IcemanSK.

Is it "normal?" Well, I don't do it but that's my choice. I think part of the reason this is done is economic. Both from the perspective of the student and the instructor. Some students only want a certificate, no matter whose signature is displayed. That is one reason folks buy into these fly-by-night organizations. Some instructors have this other certificate as a (financial) prerequisite to getting a Kukkiwon.

Miles

 

[IcemanSK]

Welcome to MT IcemanSK.

Is it "normal?" Well, I don't do it but that's my choice. I think part of the reason this is done is economic. Both from the perspective of the student and the instructor. Some students only want a certificate, no matter whose signature is displayed. That is one reason folks buy into these fly-by-night organizations. Some instructors have this other certificate as a (financial) prerequisite to getting a Kukkiwon.

Miles

Miles:

Thanks for the welcome to MT on the other thread. I certainly see a financial motive for some folks in having to get another certificate. I read on the Kukiwon site that a person needs to be recommended by the "national organization" & that no master (except a 9th Dan) could recommend a student for Dan rank on their own. How do you (Miles) get your students Kukiwon rank?

My situation (in part) is that I'm not affiliated w/ a "national body" but I want to test (at some point). I contacted an organization & (judging by some of their BB's) they test thru them 1st. Since they don't know me, I could see where they might want me to test thru them 1st. (As opposed to a student they've had from day one. I realize there is potential to have advantage taken. That's why I'm wondering what is normally done. And I am curious because you say you don't do it. I'm a 2nd Dan wanting to test for 3rd (someday). What do you (as my instructor) have to do to get my Kukiwon certificate?

Thanks

 

[Miles]

Miles:

I read on the Kukiwon site that a person needs to be recommended by the "national organization" & that no master (except a 9th Dan) could recommend a student for Dan rank on their own. How do you (Miles) get your students Kukiwon rank?

That's why I'm wondering what is normally done. And I am curious because you say you don't do it. I'm a 2nd Dan wanting to test for 3rd (someday). What do you (as my instructor) have to do to get my Kukiwon certificate?

IcemanSK,

At the Kukkiwon, I met foks from many different countries and there are differences in how dan certification is processed. In the USA, an 4th dan KKW instructor can apply for her students' applications either directly to the Kukkiwon or through the USA Taekwondo. In the past, I have done it both ways. I met an instructor from the Phillipines and they need to go through their national organization.

As an aside, the Kukkiwon for years had a program where it would recognize dan certifications from major organizations such as the ITF. Now, that program has ended so anyone seeking certification starts from 1st dan. I have a student who joined our dojang who has a 3rd dan from a private dojang. I can only apply for his 1st dan Kukkiwon.

Take care,

Miles