What is a JKD certificate worth?

[IMAA]

Thank you for your insert there Mr. Beasly. Sounds like your are extremely qaualified. I have spent some time with one of the instructors in my area who has been a part of your Karate College for several years here in Muncie, IN. He claims to have a background and to be teaching JKD, which he is not. I don't want to speak ill of him, because he is a very accomplished teacher. However, his JKD is not up to par in my opinion. I have spent several years training and studying JKD under guys like Guro/Sifu Inosanto, Steve Golden, Patrick Strong and some others less known. And my knowledge of JKD is far more extensive then this gentlemens. I just wish he would not claim to teach or even associate his title of Goju Ryu Karate w/ JKD. But nonetheless he is a great guy and I don't want to hurt his business I just think perhaps he was somewhat mislead at your camp or something. I've shown him some things that are more Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do. That he has not claimed to have seen or known. Seeing how now a days i've been more concentrated on the Filipino Arts I like you have decided after all the overdue B.S. if you will of Shannon Lee's and her Mother's decison to begin law suites against all those claiming to use JKD in thier art iv'e went away from JKD as part of my curriculum. I do however hold on to the principles and philosophy of Sigung Lee's ways only to label what I do as "modern street boxing" rather then JKD however in essence it's all the same in the end.

I hope things go well with you and would like to one day meet you and attend your karate college perhaps.

Have a wonderful New Years and may everyone have a great profitable year.


IMAA

 

[Aikia]

IMAA,
I'am not shure who you are speaking about in IN. Some years ago a training buddy I knew attended a JKDC seminar. He was well skilled in boxing. At the seminar the JKDC instructor "covered" boxing and several other arts. My buddy decided that he knew as much about JKD as the instructor knew about boxing so he decided to add JKD to his list of arts. His argument was "if they can do it why can't he?" I think that there are a lot of people that are going to list JKD as an art on their resume. To quote Dan " life is short, why worry?"
Someone else brought up a good point. Now that Shannon, Bruce's only heir is going to control the marketing of JKD it may be that JKD instructors will eventually adopt the MMA label. One could be a mixed-style practitioner ( capnigh, you know more than you think) and be maintaining the philosophy of JKD. Bruce "mixed" boxing, wing chun, fencing, and such to form his mixed-style which he labeled and taught as JKD. The philosophy of JKD would indicate that it is also valid to "flow" among a mix of diferent styles such as muay Thai to kali to wing chun to BJJ etc. This is also a valid and popular interpretation of JKD.
The philosophy of JKD also indicates that one may be free of all styles and "repose in the nothing". If you look at current MMA fighters one may prefer a sort of mixed-style of BJJ and boxing while another may be free of all styles and create the method that works best at that given moment. One may argue that Mixed-style is the current state of JKD and MMA is what JKD intends to become. Of course the comeback would be JKD is simply JKD and that works as well. The trap you want to avoid is "my JKD is the one and only JKD".
IMMA, thanks for your insight. You're concept of "modern street boxing" is right on target. Hope to meet you at camp (June 23-26).

 

[captnigh]

Thanks for the comment, Aikia, though I still feel as if I've a lot to learn about JKD. It seems to me that JKD is as much about mental attitude as it is physical technique. This can obviously be said about many arts, but with Lee's art there appears to be a rare open-mindedness that exists, whereas other arts can be quite restrictive with the techniques deemed "acceptable".

If I may ask-
Did you train with Lee?

 

[kroh]

Now that Shannon, Bruce's only heir is going to control the marketing of JKD it may be that JKD instructors will eventually adopt the MMA label.

I really don't like the sound of that. I know that you can't even put up a Bruce picture without getting a class action suit slapped on...but does the above statement mean that JKD isn't JKD unless they say it is?

Man...this whole "Bruce Lee is God of martial arts and we own the rights" thing is just out of hand. I know that Miss Shannon (forgive me as I do not know her married last name) is not here to defend herself but does anyone know if the idea of JKD marketing is true?

why can't we all just train?

Regards,
Walt

 

[Aikia]

Jack, I did not train with Bruce. I was training in TKD on the East Coast from '68 while Bruce was alive. I was turned on to JKD in 1971 "Liberate yourself from Classical Karate". My hero was Joe Lewis who trained with Bruce. I began working with Joe in 1981 (www.joelewiskarate.com). Check out info on Joe's book on JKD.
I have found that two types are attracted to JKD. First are the Bruce Lee groupies that see BL as an idol. Kind of what Walt talks about on this thread. And second are the more cebreal types, like me, who become fasinated with JKD philosophy ( and have no interest in BL). Some may have both interests.
I am not a JKD instructor. Except for Dan and Larry I am senior ( in terms of rank) to most of the students who trained with Lee in the art of JKD. Too much politics in that group for me. Most are nice guys and I have enjoyed working with them. I wrote the first book on the JKD concept endorsed by Dan Inosanto in 1988.
In the 1990's I promoted JKDC seminars and hired JKDC instructors. In 1993 I promoted the first ( of five) Original JKD camps ( with support of Ted Wong, Taky Kimura and Howard Williams). Because I promoted and wrote about OJKD I was blacklisted by the JKDC group. They were not above letting money get in the way of relationships. When you quit making money for them they tend to forget your name. It's interesting that the Inosantos have been sued by the Lee family for control of the BL/JKD name. I don't know who won but notice the JKD banner has been deleted from the Inosanto site. Money got in the way of friendships there also. I have no resentment toward Dan. It's ancient history.
I used to teach a class on "The Tao of JKD" at Radford University" but got burned out on the politics. I still write about JKD quite a bit. And a lot of people use the terms I created like "original"JKD/Pre-73 JKD/JKD Matrix etc. People have a hard time understanding JKD because it is a philosophy not an art. We by nature want to see something finite. Bruce closed his JKD school in 1971 and disbanned all JKD instruction. He was afraid someone would sell techniques and call it JKD.
At Karate College one year someone was talking about the movie "The Thing" with Kurt Russel. If you see it you will notice that the alien ( called the Thing because they didn't know what it was) could take the shape of any object or being. The thing was JKD. Bruce said JKD is like water. Water takes the shape of the object that contains it. Bruce wanted JKD to be an expression of martial arts that could change and had no borders, no limitations. People want to contain a martial art. To define borders. We recognize a style because of its limitations. A shotokan punch is different from a boxer's punch. JKD, like the alien, can take the shape of the shotokan or the boxer's punch. There are no set techniques in JKD. JKD can be anything that works. The MMA fighters are researching and exploring "what works" in competition today. Take that knowledge and apply it to street fighting and you have ( an expression of )JKD.
The minute you put boundaries on your art or expression of an art, call it a name or try to teach it as a set of fixed skills you loose JKD. That is why Bruce said JKD can not be taught, it can only be experienced. JKD is really just a name. It is up to the individual to express JKD.
I tell people to use the term JKDI. The "I" stands for "influenced". Most of us are influenced by JKD. You don't need a certificate to be JKDI. You don't have to join an organization or pay dues to be JKDI. It's a lot more honest than trying to get in the rat race of "owning" or containing JKD. You can't own a philosophy. You can only express it. That's JKD.

 

[captnigh]

That gives me something to think about.
It is hard for me to think any martial artist who has been exposed to Lee's philosophies, even a little, would not be inspired to open their minds about training.
I wonder what Bruce would say about the political goings-on in JKD today.
Thanks again for the responses, Dr Beasley. What is your seminar schedule for the upcoming yaer?

 

[AC_Pilot]

Very cool insights Rebecca.

The other thing to consider is the people who actually trained with Bruce. Guys like Dan Inosanto who are toted by many as being a person of integrity that studied with Lee. They still teach JKD / Jun Fan Gung Fu with and without inovation. Those that focus on the no style as style philosophy miss the point. They get so wrapped up in the water is formless debate that they forget that even an ocean has a surface and a submerged side. If there was nothing to contain the water then it would be just floating in the air or out in space. In order for it to be usefull it has to adopt some form or shape. And if you do not do some type of formatted training, then does that mean you should be applying the techniques in a different method every time you train?

Dont know about you, but I like the jab-cross theory. Put up a person who trains a different way every day ( average kung fooligan) versus say, a boxer, who trains the same five techniques every day, 365. I'll put my money on the boxer because his stuff is geared to work versus the fooligan who might have memorized the action but has no expereince training it to work.

The long and short of it is that these arguments hve been hashed and rehashed a thousand times ( including on the school message board that I run for the JKD school I go to). We know that one aspect of Lee's theory was meant to stay a theory and one aspect was the stuff that he actually practiced... But if we say that he practiced something then that means he had to categorize it and repeat it...other wise it wouldn't be practice.

The bad part about an argument like this is that it can go on forever without either side making head way. Formless, yes. Methods of practice ...yes. Forms...despite what people say... Yes ( to a degree). What's the peice of paper worth...? Only the individual can decide. But when i walk into a school and they say, "we teach JKD concepts" and I ask where they learned it...If they say they pulled it out of a book...then i am out the door. If they say that what they are teaching is the scientific departure of forms in favor of function as taught by Bruce Lee... I might stay to see what they have to offer

Regards,
Walt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now we touch upon the truth. First the student must fit within a structured set of training parameters, and techniques/drills. ONLY after achieving success in this, and becoming a mature fighter through these regular repeated systems, can the advanced and enlightened student cast aside what does not work for them, and begin to search out what WILL work in real world combat. In my case I have trained in the Inosanto/Vunak systems, under certified instructors, and found my physique did not lend itself to certain original techniques which Bruce could definitely do and which Bruce promoted. (Hook kicks being one) But after I cast those aside I inserted other techniques from other arts I have studied and found worthy, (Praying Mantis concepts, Aikido-Dumog synthesis, etc..) and in fact modified these original techniques for street applicability and integration with basic JKD/Kali, etc.

We discard structure and the basic JKD techniques Bruce promoted only after we have burned out most of our personal ignorance and are therefore better qualified to assess ourselves in experience, wisdom and knowledge. We do this by first trying our best to master the basic JKD structure and understand JKD concepts.

My JKD will not be your JKD, after we both reach profeciency in basic JKD techniques/concepts, and understanding of our weaknesses. But you are not understanding JKD concepts if you never trained in basic JKD techniques for sufficient time to learn what your weaknesses are. You can't just read up a bit on JKD and make an assessment. This is why JKD people want to train with and study other arts,.. to bring us out of our condition of ignorance. There are definite techniques Bruce believed one should train in and try to master before daring to cast them aside as not worthy. This is a major reason so few try JKD.. it is daunting and conceptual, and few really understand it even after trying it for a while.. and most cannot put into execution the flow from range to range, seamless transition from technique to technique in various arts, without stopping to think about "what's next?" This rigidity makes executing JKD impossible. It takes time and meditation on the concepts and natural ability. Bruce indeed said "not one in 10,000 men can do my art."

To say they is no form or structure in JKD training is to entirely miss the points Bruce tried to make. Sometimes I think no one really read all of Bruce's writings, or if they did, they did so as an outsider who never tried the Inosanto/Vunak "way" of training, and therefore these concepts of Bruce are not understood today by many. I don't think Bruce really expected most to understand.

 

[kroh]

artyon:

Thank you!

:asian:

Brilliant!

artyon:

 

[R. Derderian]

AC Pilot,
That was an excellent post and very much on target.
I seldom post on JKD forums as they are many times full of arrogance and ego. Not as many people interested in martial arts or JKD as they are in being Bruce Lee groupies. Martial Talk really is a great website and I should get more involved here than I do. It is also nice to see Mr. Beasley here.
I have been teaching JKD since 1993. I am a full time martial arts instructor and I have never once been able to make a living teaching just JKD. It is, however, a solid program in my academy and we have around 30 adults on the average enrolled in it at any given time.
I've seen lots of JKD people open and close in my area. The owners are good martial artists, lousy business people. Poor locations, unprofessionalism, and pounding on the students will not let you teach for very long. Also, quick instructors licenses and no knowledge of what the heck they are teaching will catch up to as well.
What is a JKD certificate worth? The question can only be answered by the masses of people who want to study. It doesn't matter what art you selling, if someone doesn't like it/respect it, it means little to them. I love all martial arts, but there are some I believe in more than others. To many in the JKD community, a Kenpo certificate is worthless. (no one here on martial talk would ever believe that I am sure ) I love the Kenpo/Kempo arts, yet I am also a JKD guy. That costs me with some in the JKD world, but who cares.
As Kroh (my student by the way and a good all around guy) said, the retention in my JKD program was spotty for years. Tried lots of stuff. I am happy to say that in the last 3 years, retention in JKD has been excellent. We have a more structured curriculum. Oh, I know JKD isn't a structured art, but the teaching of it has to be. If I just teach whatever I feel like each class, when does anyone have chance to improve their techniques? After a time in the program, the curriculum allows the student to "wean" off of it and begin to create their own version of it. In other words, they ARE making their own JKD. But now they are in a better position to do it. It makes for a better teaching experience on my part and the quality of student is awesome.
Thanks for the time. Great thread.
Raffi Derderian

 

[AC_Pilot]

Raffi.. thanks.

I only wish there was a studio like yours in my area. I would definitely try you out. I would love to be exposed to Kenpo and any other arts you teach. My first instructors tried to open a JKD studio here (how I got into JKD) but they quickly failed due to poor business practices and personal disagreements. Sad because they both were talented and the main instructor, Mark Ashton, certified by Inosanto and truly had the ability to impart JKD concepts.
I would not attempt to open a studio until I had a lot of money to lose as this is not the best area to open a JKD dojo. I would not do it for money but love of the concepts and arts (plural)

Regards,
Steve Robbins

 

[kroh]

Hey AC...

Sifu Raffi really does have a sweet school!

What part of the country are you in? One of the things you could do is to form a study group to keep your skills up. Find a small corps of people that you could train with a few times a (insert time period of choice/convenience). This would not only keep your skills current but also it could expand your network of training partners. Then during some of the time periods that you are not training, go and visit with some of these JKD instructors and make sure that your skills are not only current, but advancing.

Regards,
Walt

 

[AC_Pilot]

Hey AC...

Sifu Raffi really does have a sweet school!

What part of the country are you in? One of the things you could do is to form a study group to keep your skills up. Find a small corps of people that you could train with a few times a (insert time period of choice/convenience). This would not only keep your skills current but also it could expand your network of training partners. Then during some of the time periods that you are not training, go and visit with some of these JKD instructors and make sure that your skills are not only current, but advancing.

Regards,
Walt

I'm definitely open to that. Problem is in this area the pool of JKD interested people is very limited. Even though I meet lots of people at the dojo where I aerobic kickbox, they are almost never JKD material. Pretty much only if I meet someone, we become buddies, then they discover what JKD is really about, and think they can try it. I have trained a few guys in basic JKD but eventually they had to leave the area for employment. One guy who had great potential "had" to stop training with me because his wife was jealous of the 3 hours a week he trained with me. I think she was mostly bothered by his newfound confidence
I do have a post in the training partners wanted thread, but most people in this area seem to want a belt in Muay Thai, Karate, or to train only in groundfighting. I will either travel for seminars in the future or bring an instructor here to train with me and certify me. I do kickbox JKD "style" several times each week, and train in Carrenza and energy drills and such with my gal, but I can't really train all out right now because of the power differential between us.

Regards,
Steve

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

What a bizzare question! My certificate means you can be garanteed that I can take you from point a to point z.My degree in education means that I put my time in in college and earned a degree.Whats it all worth? Who knows! My bussiness sense means that since 1986 I have made a living teaching JKD/Kali and I live in NYC which is the most expensive place to live.Certification does not have a dollar value per se.I was published in Karate International mag thru the 90s because I can prove my lineage and am not a self proclamed expert like some.I have certified people that dont even teach but the certification proves that they put thier time in and understand the system, nothing more.Its funny nobody is asking whats the value of a karate blackbelt. Barry Cuda combatartsusa.com

 

[Aikia]

Barry, I use to read your articles in Karate International. Good stuff. In fact Mike use to let me see the pre- published articled for opinions.You may recall I wrote the JKD column for KI. Too bad more people didn't read KI. We would both still be in print. The question of "What is a JKD Certificate worth?" actually makes the point that a black belt certificate ( and of course quality skill and the ability to teach) can be a ticket to a good income. Whereas a JKD certificate lacks public identification. Many "JKD" instructors actually teach a variety of cultural arts in order to hold the student's interest. The general public does not know what to expect when you advertise JKD instruction. Some may even ask if you teach nunchuck lessons. In other words it is harder to make a living as a JKD instructor than it is to make a living as a black belt instructor. Yet some would say that it costs more to "earn" a certificate to teach JKD. Each person's experience may be unique.
JB

 

[47MartialMan]

What do ytou think Bruce lee would think it is worth?

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

JB thanks for the kind words,that was very kind of you, Barry

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

A JKD certificate would be worth nothing to me. I believe that Bruce Lee never intended for them to be given out as if JKD were a style. He said "to wipe the name out" if it were becoming a style that way. In my opinion, JKD is becoming a style, with it's levels as a ranking system up to black sash, and it has you doing certain techniques in a certain way. I think Bruce wanted everyone to come up with there own JKD, like he said, do what works for you, have no style. He wanted to be "the finger pointing away to the moon" not the moon itself. Therefore, JKD orginizations do not follow Bruce's philosophy. They make you do things their way to acheive levels. I've watched the World JKD Federation training videos enough to know this.

This is just my opinion, but I really feel Bruce didn't want it that way. I've written 4 papers on him and his philosophy for different classes and for my black belt. Through my research, that's just what I have come to understand and feel he might want.

Rebecca

Amen! In my opinion, JKD died with Bruce Lee (*bows* may he rest in peace and harmony for eternity). Sure, he taught Dan Inasanto and Ted Wong and others, but do u do things EXACTLY like your instructor? The original, true Bruce Lee JKD died when he did and I think it's an insult to his memory by marketing JKD as if it were a videogame everyone wants and handing out certificates left and right. A JKD certificate would be worth diddly squat to me, unless I was taught by Bruce Lee himself (which I wish I could've been), but after I got it, I wouldn't say, like so many JKD teachers out there are, "I'm teaching Bruce Lee's art" Like hell they are. No one but Bruce Lee could tach HIS on true original art. The others may be close to it, but not the actual product. Bruce wanted everyone to find their own way anyway, not follow him. "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or u will miss all that heavenly glory." He said that he was like a road sign pointing to the truth but not the actual truth. How do I know Bruce wouldn't have wanted JKD orginizations and many JKD teachers trying to teach his martial art? He closed all of his dojos because he saw that his instructors weren't teaching the same way he did. So then he taught personally out of his home for 275 an hour! Anyway there's my long opinion!

 

[achilles]

I understand your point, but then to be consistant you must also say that Shotokan died with Funakoshi and no one can really teach that art. The same goes for Tae Kwon Do and definitely Ninjitsu.

 

[47MartialMan]

But, would Bruce desire it to "die"/"phase out"?

 

[Aikia]

I recently read where the award winning screen writer Stirling Silliphant was issued a certificate for 3rd level Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. This is the same level as Dan Inosanto. For years I had heard that Dan Inosanto was the one and only person Bruce ranked at level 3. That raises certain questions regarding the meaning of being ranked at 3rd level and who is the senior student under Bruce Lee. Level 3 could not possibly be an "instructor" rank since Mr.Silliphant is not considered as a JKD instructor. New information continues to surface. Maybe there are others.