Certificates does it really matter

[terryl965]

I'm sorry to hear about that, Terry... but you know, it will happen. There's that great line, Mightier than all the armies is an idea whose time has come, and this idea's time has definitely come. Good luck to you folk on getting it going; once it's been started, I predict that a lot of outfits will flock to your banner.

I do not know about all of that, my main goal is not to be govern by crooks and egomaniacs. The USAT formanally the USTU will steal from you and you must be willing to kiss *** to get anywhere, this is why I tell my hopeful if you can knock them out do it. This way it is not up to the judges and those that need to be stroked. My association with these fine Martial Artist is pure luck and I hope they can put together what others have tried.

 

[exile]

I do not know about all of that, my main goal is not to be govern by crooks and egomaniacs. The USAT formanally the USTU will steal from you and you must be willing to kiss *** to get anywhere, this is why I tell my hopeful if you can knock them out do it. This way it is not up to the judges and those that need to be stroked. My association with these fine Martial Artist is pure luck and I hope they can put together what others have tried.

I think there are a lot of people who share that hope.... I'd really like to see a major TKD organization that wasn't beholden to the vexed historical relationships between Korea and other Asian countries, and to Korean government/nationalist ambitions on the world stage, which seems to me to be the main engine that's been driving this Olympified picture of TKD for the past quarter-century and more...

 

[Kacey]

As I have said before - the only important thing about my certificates is my sahbum's signature, signifying his belief that I have demonstrated the skills he deemed necessary for a particular rank. Certificates from the ITF (back when we got them, with the signatures stamped, not signed), where no one knows me, and are taking his word for my skills, are not important to me.

Certificates from the ITF or the KKW, or any other large governing body, are only important if you wish to compete at high levels, or if you, as an instructor, wish to be able to promote students within that organizational structure for the purpose of competition. Otherwise, the only important piece is your integrity as a martial artist, and that of the instructor(s) who promote you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ditto, XS. Things really seem to have swung way too far in the direction of purely sport competition.

Yes it has and in the process, IMO, TKD lost its heart, if you will. After recovering from the injuries I got years ago I went to lok for TKD schools and what I saw got me into CMA. I am not complaining, I love CMA, but it is rather sad what happened to TKD

But then I am a self-professed traditionalist when it comes to MA so that I guess is not all that surprising a statement form me

 

[IcemanSK]

As I have said before - the only important thing about my certificates is my sahbum's signature, signifying his belief that I have demonstrated the skills he deemed necessary for a particular rank. Certificates from the ITF (back when we got them, with the signatures stamped, not signed), where no one knows me, and are taking his word for my skills, are not important to me.

Certificates from the ITF or the KKW, or any other large governing body, are only important if you wish to compete at high levels, or if you, as an instructor, wish to be able to promote students within that organizational structure for the purpose of competition. Otherwise, the only important piece is your integrity as a martial artist, and that of the instructor(s) who promote you.

Well said, Kacey!

 

[exile]

Yes it has and in the process, IMO, TKD lost its heart, if you will. After recovering from the injuries I got years ago I went to lok for TKD schools and what I saw got me into CMA. I am not complaining, I love CMA, but it is rather sad what happened to TKD

But then I am a self-professed traditionalist when it comes to MA so that I guess is not all that surprising a statement form me

Well, that's the thing—there are a lot of traditionalists around who've basically accomodated the direction in TKD because, really, what choice did they have? But traditionally, it was the Kwan that was the important thing, with your instructors putting their good names and reputations on your certificate to vouch for the fact that you had met the standard that they were setting. The dilution of the combat content of the art seems to be correlated with this increasing distance between the practitioner on the one hand and the certifying/evaluating body on the other. As some of the anecdotes earlier in the thread make clear, the results can be horrifying.

 

[newGuy12]

As I have said before - the only important thing about my certificates is my sahbum's signature, signifying his belief that I have demonstrated the skills he deemed necessary for a particular rank. Certificates from the ITF (back when we got them, with the signatures stamped, not signed), where no one knows me, and are taking his word for my skills, are not important to me.

Certificates from the ITF or the KKW, or any other large governing body, are only important if you wish to compete at high levels, or if you, as an instructor, wish to be able to promote students within that organizational structure for the purpose of competition. Otherwise, the only important piece is your integrity as a martial artist, and that of the instructor(s) who promote you.

RIGHT, RIGHT! Now, *I* value *my* certificate because it was the custom of our school for black belt students to get one, and so I did. I think I can understand how someone who has aspirations to become a teacher would also value these certs, but that is not (or ever has been) a goal of mine.

Now, with the things that we see here in this thread, the values of these certs may become pretty much worthless if the organizations keep up these kinds of things -- but -- that may end up being a boon, if that gives rise to more "righteous" organizations.

The Chinese character for "calamity" is the same as for "opportunity"??? Well, then...

 

[newGuy12]

On a side note, Mr. Xue Sheng, I had no idea that you were "old school" TKD. My admiration grows for you, Sir!

Things go in cycles -- good days lie ahead for TKD.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, that's the thing—there are a lot of traditionalists around who've basically accomodated the direction in TKD because, really, what choice did they have? But traditionally, it was the Kwan that was the important thing, with your instructors putting their good names and reputations on your certificate to vouch for the fact that you had met the standard that they were setting. The dilution of the combat content of the art seems to be correlated with this increasing distance between the practitioner on the one hand and the certifying/evaluating body on the other. As some of the anecdotes earlier in the thread make clear, the results can be horrifying.

I will have to go back and see if I can find out what, if any, organization I may have been a part of, I do not really remember any and if I was it really was not that important at the time. Mr Kim was the final say about everything.

But I absolutely agree with what you are saying

Xue Sheng, I had no idea that you were "old school" TKD.

Ahhh it was years ago, I think I was in my early 20s when I got injured and had to stop and I was 30 by the time I could consider actual real live training again and what I found did not make me happy so I went CMA and now I'm much closer to 50 than 40 so it was a long time ago.

Things go in cycles -- good days lie ahead for TKD.

I hope so

 

[wade]

Just about everyone on this post has gone on and on about how certificates don't matter, were gotten to easily, etc. But I have noticed also that just about every one that has posted here not only listed their rank and years of training but also that if they are Kukkiwon certified that they mention that also. If they are not KKW then they also mention the fact that their system, instructor, ETC was and now no longer is. They all want to go back to the pre-Olympic days of TKD, the old school traditional ways of training. Uh huh! I have to admit I am a little confused. The certificates don't mean anything but with out them what gives your instructors the right or authority to promote you? Before you say it's because your instructor is God's gift to TKD think a moment. Who says, you? Him? Well, who are you and who is he? If you live on the east coast and I live on the west coast and their in no NGB to at least try to control, authorize and make legal certificates, ranks etc then can not little Jimmy (sorry Jimmy), decide he is a grand master and get a bunch of gullible people to train under him? If you have been in the business long enough you have already seen this and well, guess what, he is just as legal as you, your instructor or any one else who trains or pretends to train in the martial arts. Who is going to tell him can't? Not you nor your instructor, you don't have the rank nor authority because like you have already said, the certifcates don't mean anything. Sooooo? What are you going to do? Your turn......................................:bangahead:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sooooo? What are you going to do? Your turn......................................

What am I going to do? Keep on training CMA like I have been for awhile now... and we have no belts... or organizations to worry about

I no longer train TKD and I have not for many years and I do not remember any certificate that my teacher had but he had a history and a lineage and a rank and appeared to be and in retrospect was highly skilled.

I now do CMA and I have never dealt with an outside organization only the Sifu. Yes one is now representing himself as something he is not but I no longer go to him and I have not for a while. And I know for a fact he cannot make these same claims if he were in China but many of his students do not know this or are not willing to look around and check because it is SOOOOO much easier to stay there and be a senior student or a “master”...even though outside of there you are very poor at best.

How do you know who is good? It sure as heck does not come form a certificate on the wall it comes form going to class watching training and comparing and studying the history of the art you train.

I trained TKD many many years ago and I have not done it in years so I do not even list it in my profile beyond KMA, and when I decided to go back to train after an injury (also many years ago) I was not looking for certificates or organizations I was looking at the skill of the students and the teacher and I was wholly unimpressed. That is how I judged it, might not work for everyone but it worked for me.

 

[exile]

Just about everyone on this post has gone on and on about how certificates don't matter, were gotten to easily, etc. But I have noticed also that just about every one that has posted here not only listed their rank and years of training but also that if they are Kukkiwon certified that they mention that also. If they are not KKW then they also mention the fact that their system, instructor, ETC was and now no longer is.

If I made the kinds of comments about the KKW and the organizational setup of TKD in this country that I do, and was unable to show that it wasn't a matter of sour grapes (because my instructor didn't have KKW certification), then it would represent an easy shot for someone who wanted to undercut me to say, "well, sure you're putting down the KKW—you've got no KKW cert in your lineage to corroborate your school's legitimacy." Right? That's the way people operate. So I put my "bona fides" in my profile so that I won't at least get that line thrown at me.

They all want to go back to the pre-Olympic days of TKD, the old school traditional ways of training. Uh huh! I have to admit I am a little confused. The certificates don't mean anything but with out them what gives their instructors the right or authority to promote them. Before you say it's because your instructor is God's gift to TKD think a moment. Who says, you? Him? Well, who are you and who is he?

What gives my instructor credibility? His own promotion in his lineage: his instructor, Greg Fears, is not exactly unknown nationally; Mr. Fear's instructor, Joon Pye Choi, was a senior student of Byung Jik Ro, founder of one of the five original Kwans. That's the pedigree that counts, for me.

If you live on the east coast and I live on the west coast and their in no NGB to at least try to control, authorize and make legal certificates, ranks etc then can not little Jimmy decide he is a grand master and get a bunch of gullible people to train under him? If you have been in the business long enough you have already seen this and well, guess what, he is just as legal as you, your instructor or any one else who trains or pretends to train in the martial arts. Who is going to tell him can't? Not you, you don't have the rank nor authority because like you have already said, they don't mean anything. Sooooo? What are yo going to do?

Take a look at the rank-buying stories that people have been reporting earlier in the thread, and then ask yourself just how good a guarantee the certification of any outfit is where that can go on. Who from the KKW central organization actually sees the practitioners whose rank they're certifying? So exactly what is being guaranteed? There are McDojangs galore with KKW-certified dan ranks as instructors and/or owners; so how does KKW certification have any bearing on the issue of quality? Now I'm a little confused.

 

[terryl965]

Wade the point I am trying to make is this certain people I know will promote for the right amount of money, they cannot kick or even worst do not know anything about the sport let alone the Art. If this keeps happening what does the certificate mean and how will it be looked at down the road. I know what it means to me and why I tested for 4th so I have control of KKW certs. for my school and for those that would someday like to try and make the Olympic dream. As far for me the certs. means this my instructor and the board thought I was good enough to be promoted. I'am also AAU certified as well as USAT so I believe all bases are covered for me at this time but if the trends keep going this way for how long. You have to agree so many people who has certification does not know the truth about it, most people believe it is the WTF that gave them there certs and not the KKW, so how is this ever going to change. I know on thew other forum we both go too have talked about this very thing. And I have read you response there and I can see you have the same answer so you believe in what you are saying and I for one applaud you on that.

 

[newGuy12]

I was looking at the skill of the students

If, for some reason, I would have to move far away, I would have to look for a Dojang. What would I do?

1) Ask for recommendations from the Teacher I have now, as well as our GM.

2) Consult this particular message board here.

3) Look at the students. Do they have good kicks? Good control and power, with speed?

I can say that the thought of asking about any kind of certification would not even cross my mind. I say that with all honesty.

 

[terryl965]

If, for some reason, I would have to move far away, I would have to look for a Dojang. What would I do?

1) Ask for recommendations from the Teacher I have now, as well as our GM.

2) Consult this particular message board here.

3) Look at the students. Do they have good kicks? Good control and power, with speed?

I can say that the thought of asking about any kind of certification would not even cross my mind. I say that with all honesty.

Make sure your old instructor may know somebody or trust in some of the fine folks you have met here and go with that. I know I will not send anybody to someone I do not trust or like.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If, for some reason, I would have to move far away, I would have to look for a Dojang. What would I do?

1) Ask for recommendations from the Teacher I have now, as well as our GM.

2) Consult this particular message board here.

3) Look at the students. Do they have good kicks? Good control and power, with speed?

I can say that the thought of asking about any kind of certification would not even cross my mind. I say that with all honesty.

Agreed

But in my case this was a long time ago and I didn't even OWN a computer then... DAMN I'm old :uhyeah:

 

[newGuy12]

Agreed

But in my case this was a long time ago and I didn't even OWN a computer then... DAMN I'm old :uhyeah:

Haha! You probably remember the day when people would consult the "yellow pages" for listings of schools!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Haha! You probably remember the day when people would consult the "yellow pages" for listings of schools!

:lol:

I remember phones with a dial too

 

[terryl965]

:lol:

I remember phones with a dial too

Me too and I also remember beta was a big thing and pong.

 

[exile]

Haha! You probably remember the day when people would consult the "yellow pages" for listings of schools!

Hell, when I was growing up, there was only one brand of 'Yellow pages'! :uhohh: