Martial Arts are Witchcraft, just ask this guy!

[wingchun100]

I ran a large, busy, well respected dojo in the eighties and nineties. A lot of the kids class went to a Catholic grammar school that was a quarter mile away. We didn't teach any religion and the kids were told to honor whatever their parents taught them.

So one day there was a problem with two of the kids, both age twelve. I can't even remember what the problem was, but one of them was lying. They both swore they were telling the truth. They both went to the Catholic school.

I put on a suit and tie and knocked on the front door (after classes at the school) to ask their help with the kids. A lay teacher answered and I politely explained my predicament. She said she would get the boss. (A mother superior) As I introduced myself and explained to the Nun - she interrupted me. I'll never forget what she said, "I do NOT speak to heathens!" And she slammed the door in my face. It was a big door. I have a small face. My nose bled all over my nice suit and white shirt, and all I could say was, "Wow, that was different."

So, okay, no help there. I didn't know what happened the following week until the next Monday, when twenty parents came walking into the dojo. They wanted to tell me something. They showed me a letter that was sent out to the parents of every student in their School. (Most Precious Blood) (hell of a name -says the heathen) The letter told them if any children went to the "heathen Martial arts classes" they would be expelled from the Catholic school. I damn near crapped. Then the parents told me that they all went up there, forty strong, and told Mother Superior that they were all going to pull their children out of the catholic school if they ever tried to interfere in their child's study of Martial Arts. It cost a LOT of money to go to that Catholic school. They also went to the Monsignor and told him the same thing. He got on that like FAST. Nothing talks like money and bad press.

I got a letter about a week later from Mom Superior telling me it was a "misunderstanding" and we were "welcome to come do a demo at the school". I respectfully declined.

I should point out that I went to that Church as a kid, went to their CYO, and became a chaperone to the kids in the CYO as a young adult. That was almost thirty years ago and I know a lot has changed. But it was the last straw for me in a life that watched the "Holy people" be anything but. That Monsignor, by the way, was excommunicated in a sex scandal years later. He also used to shack up with notorious Boston mobster Whitey Bulger. As a cop, we had a lot of paper on him. (It made for an interesting read)

So....no reason to share this other than wanting to get it off my chest. And to point out that some of us "heathens" might actually have a reason for being that way. Martial Arts has taught me more by example than any Church I ever attended.

It IS kind of hard to be a part of something that claims to teach peace, love and tolerance when its representatives are slamming doors in people's faces and giving them bloody noses.

 

[donald1]

It IS kind of hard to be a part of something that claims to teach peace, love and tolerance when its representatives are slamming doors in people's faces and giving them bloody noses.

I guess it depends on what someone would consider "peace love and tolerance" means to them specifically. Everybody has a different opinion towards a certain topic and I bet that's what this is

 

[wingchun100]

I guess it depends on what someone would consider "peace love and tolerance" means to them specifically. Everybody has a different opinion towards a certain topic and I bet that's what this is

Well, slamming the door in someone's face certainly isn't peaceful. And not being willing to talk to Buka because he is a "heathen" is not tolerance.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Interesting that you consider your gym to be your church where you receive preaching, but don't understand why religion always comes into the fray. Maybe you meant to give another meaning?

Anyway, your religion is your concern and your beliefs are yours to be right or wrong about, as with all of us. But I can help you with what reasons Christians should be giving as to why lesbianism or homosexuality are sin. There are various places in the Old Testament, that talk about sodomy as sin, such as Deuteronomy 23:17,



or in Leviticus 18:22


and in the New Testament, in the 1st chapter of the book of Romans in the Bible.



You may want to do a search on BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. for 'sodomy' and 'sodomites' as well as reading about Sodom and Lot. Then read the whole of the 1st chapter of Romans for context. But basically, neither women nor men should have same-sex intercourse, that being against nature.

You may believe in the Bible or not, or practice Christianity or not, but the Bible does show it to be sin and abomination. So when people you talk to say it is wrong, but don't know where in the Bible it says so, you can show them something they don't know.

Odd - I know a lot of Christians, including many who are quite fervent about their belief. I've never met one yet who even attempted or advocated attempting to follow all the rules listed in Leviticus.

I've read a number of people arguing that the original Greek and Hebrew terms in these various Bible passages actually referred to temple prostitution, pederasty, and/or rape rather than a consensual loving same-sex relationship. I'm not a scholar of ancient languages or civilizations, so I have no way of judging the plausibility of these claims. (I strongly suspect most people opining one way or the other on the subject are no more qualified than I am.)

The only apparent reference to lesbianism (as opposed to male homosexuality) in the Bible is Romans 1:26. I've seen scholarly arguments that the original meaning of this passage is being misinterpreted as well, but once again I lack the credentials to evaluate whether this is likely to be correct.

Not meaning to start a religious flame war here - just pointing out that even within a given religious tradition there are plenty of divergent views about dogma.

I don't know the crowd DonnaTKD hangs out with. When she says "no reason as to where they got that thought from" I don't know whether she means the people she is referring to don't know specific Bible verses to cite when condemning lesbians or if she means that they don't know the moral reasoning behind why the Bible would make those claims. That's not really a trivial distinction.

(To illustrate the distinction, I would point to your last paragraph, where you say "the Bible does show it to be sin and abomination." If I accepted that your interpretation of the passages in question exactly matched the original intent, then I would accept the conclusion that the Bible says it is sin and abomination. Says is different from shows*.)

*(I guess that to a believer in biblical literalism and inerrancy, "Bible says" might be the same as "Bible shows." Of course, that sort of belief is far from universal in Christianity as a whole.**)

**(Of course, to a non-Christian any argument from Biblical authority is meaningless, whether it "says" or "shows" or whether the interpretation of certain passages is disputed or not. Therefore if Christians wish to make a moral argument to someone outside their faith, then it would be a good idea to find some sort of basis for that argument other than citing bible passages.)

 

[donald1]

Well, slamming the door in someone's face certainly isn't peaceful. And not being willing to talk to Buka because he is a "heathen" is not tolerance.

That is true, it is very rude to slam a door in someone's face and worse on purpose too, and the fact they wouldn't talk to him and to a quick conclusion he might be a heathen is rather shameful on their behalf

I don't know their reasons for doing what they do. I often wonder why people do crazy stuff like that, are the answers intricate and more complex than first appear or simpler than it seems, but whether a good reason or bad one I'm sure there is one for which they reacted in such manner

 

[Marnetmar]

I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.

Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?

I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?

I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?

It is almost a sin when you consider the odds my opponents have.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?

I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?

You just made me remember something with "martial arts - sin or abomination" many years ago a local church was after me to teach a taijiquan class for local clergy and I said ok and they were all so happy and then...... I told them what it would cost...that it was not free....and then it became something they were not sure was inline with what the church was about..... I got the impression that it was either a sin or abomination to expect to get paid for teaching...never did teach that class

 

[donnaTKD]

last time i went to a proper church must be about 20years ago when my auntie got married LoL i don't read the bible - i've got one but never had any real interest in it because life didn't start 2014 years ago life was all about millions of years before that also it can't have started 2014 years ago cos jesus had parents !

my church is my gym --- i "religiously" go to the gym like some people go to church - some people pray, i kick bags - some like listening to a minister, i like listening to my muay thai coach and the only singing that gets done is the howling of pure pain LoL

didn't know that the bible condemned gay people to a life of perpetual sin but then again i'm a supposed devil worshipper too so what's the difference either way i'm committing a sin LoL

 

[Punchy]

Witchcraft?

That's offensive...I prefer the term sorcery

 

[RTKDCMB]

I ran a large, busy, well respected dojo in the eighties and nineties. A lot of the kids class went to a Catholic grammar school that was a quarter mile away. We didn't teach any religion and the kids were told to honor whatever their parents taught them.

So one day there was a problem with two of the kids, both age twelve. I can't even remember what the problem was, but one of them was lying. They both swore they were telling the truth. They both went to the Catholic school.

I put on a suit and tie and knocked on the front door (after classes at the school) to ask their help with the kids. A lay teacher answered and I politely explained my predicament. She said she would get the boss. (A mother superior) As I introduced myself and explained to the Nun - she interrupted me. I'll never forget what she said, "I do NOT speak to heathens!" And she slammed the door in my face. It was a big door. I have a small face. My nose bled all over my nice suit and white shirt, and all I could say was, "Wow, that was different."

So, okay, no help there. I didn't know what happened the following week until the next Monday, when twenty parents came walking into the dojo. They wanted to tell me something. They showed me a letter that was sent out to the parents of every student in their School. (Most Precious Blood) (hell of a name -says the heathen) The letter told them if any children went to the "heathen Martial arts classes" they would be expelled from the Catholic school. I damn near crapped. Then the parents told me that they all went up there, forty strong, and told Mother Superior that they were all going to pull their children out of the catholic school if they ever tried to interfere in their child's study of Martial Arts. It cost a LOT of money to go to that Catholic school. They also went to the Monsignor and told him the same thing. He got on that like FAST. Nothing talks like money and bad press.

I got a letter about a week later from Mom Superior telling me it was a "misunderstanding" and we were "welcome to come do a demo at the school". I respectfully declined.

I should point out that I went to that Church as a kid, went to their CYO, and became a chaperone to the kids in the CYO as a young adult. That was almost thirty years ago and I know a lot has changed. But it was the last straw for me in a life that watched the "Holy people" be anything but. That Monsignor, by the way, was excommunicated in a sex scandal years later. He also used to shack up with notorious Boston mobster Whitey Bulger. As a cop, we had a lot of paper on him. (It made for an interesting read)

So....no reason to share this other than wanting to get it off my chest. And to point out that some of us "heathens" might actually have a reason for being that way. Martial Arts has taught me more by example than any Church I ever attended.

Makes me proud to be a heathen.

 

[drop bear]

Right you are - so, martial arts - sin or abomination?

I've been training for over 30 years and I still haven't mastered mind control, telekinesis, or demon summoning. Does that mean I'm training at a McDojo? If so, does that mean my soul is only McDamned to Heck rather than being properly consigned to an authentic, traditional inferno?

Depends do you train on a Sunday? Apparently god hates that king of thing.

But at least you GI is less likely to be made of mixed fibres.

 

[donnaTKD]

yeah but aren't witches and wizards supposed to wear a gown or cloak ????? and apparently they can make dreams come true also

god really must hate me then :-

1) i'm gay
2) i practice muay thai every day of the week
3) my gym is my church

LoL

i must be a true exponent of pure ritual satanism and preach hell and war -- maybe inside the ring

 

[oftheherd1]

Odd - I know a lot of Christians, including many who are quite fervent about their belief. I've never met one yet who even attempted or advocated attempting to follow all the rules listed in Leviticus.

I've read a number of people arguing that the original Greek and Hebrew terms in these various Bible passages actually referred to temple prostitution, pederasty, and/or rape rather than a consensual loving same-sex relationship. I'm not a scholar of ancient languages or civilizations, so I have no way of judging the plausibility of these claims. (I strongly suspect most people opining one way or the other on the subject are no more qualified than I am.)

The only apparent reference to lesbianism (as opposed to male homosexuality) in the Bible is Romans 1:26. I've seen scholarly arguments that the original meaning of this passage is being misinterpreted as well, but once again I lack the credentials to evaluate whether this is likely to be correct.

Not meaning to start a religious flame war here - just pointing out that even within a given religious tradition there are plenty of divergent views about dogma.

I don't know the crowd DonnaTKD hangs out with. When she says "no reason as to where they got that thought from" I don't know whether she means the people she is referring to don't know specific Bible verses to cite when condemning lesbians or if she means that they don't know the moral reasoning behind why the Bible would make those claims. That's not really a trivial distinction.

(To illustrate the distinction, I would point to your last paragraph, where you say "the Bible does show it to be sin and abomination." If I accepted that your interpretation of the passages in question exactly matched the original intent, then I would accept the conclusion that the Bible says it is sin and abomination. Says is different from shows*.)

*(I guess that to a believer in biblical literalism and inerrancy, "Bible says" might be the same as "Bible shows." Of course, that sort of belief is far from universal in Christianity as a whole.**)

**(Of course, to a non-Christian any argument from Biblical authority is meaningless, whether it "says" or "shows" or whether the interpretation of certain passages is disputed or not. Therefore if Christians wish to make a moral argument to someone outside their faith, then it would be a good idea to find some sort of basis for that argument other than citing bible passages.)

Well, as you may remember, I have stated that I consider the King James Version to be the only correct translation of the Bible, and in fact, the very word of God. That is something I accept on faith and the little knowledge I have of the history of the Bible in the English language. You or anyone else may choose to believe differently. There are scholars who believe in other translations, most from the 1800s on, being descended from a translation heavily influenced by Wescott and Hort. There are also scholars who disagree, staying with the King James Version. Since I am in the King James believing camp, I do not agree with other translations, nor scholars that support them. That is me. As I said, you or anyone else may believe as you wish.

I think it's best we stay on the topic of martial arts only, I can see this turning into a flame war on homosexuality real quick.

Point taken. So I will not make other posts along that line. But, martial arts and the assertions of martial arts being cults will perhaps have some drift.

 

[oftheherd1]

yeah but aren't witches and wizards supposed to wear a gown or cloak ????? and apparently they can make dreams come true also

god really must hate me then :-

1) i'm gay
2) i practice muay thai every day of the week
3) my gym is my church

LoL

i must be a true exponent of pure ritual satanism and preach hell and war -- maybe inside the ring

Being I am a Christian, I just want to let you know, regardless of what you may do, God does love you. He would hate anything you do that is a sin, but you He loves.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Being I am a Christian, I just want to let you know, regardless of what you may do, God does love you. He would hate anything you do that is a sin, but you He loves.

Does it say "God Hates" in the Bible? I'm curious. I didn't see that term in the quotes you provided.

 

[donnaTKD]

that term "GOD HATES" was my reposte to the posts before mine given what had been said earlier in the thread about going to church and not practising on sundays and being a "really good girlie " in that i'm not supposed to enjoy life with other girlies

don't think that god hates is in the bible cos it's "pure"

and if god really was unhappy about the way i choose to live my life then that's just tough cookies on him i'm not gunna change cos of some words on a few sheets of paper - i live my life to the max and enjoy everything that i choose to get involved in

 

[donnaTKD]

muay thai is my life

1) it gives me something to focus on
2) it gives me inner peace and helps me to control my anger / frustrations
3) i like the environment in which i practice in
4) i love being able to fight twice a week --- ladies and gentlemen - time to knuckle up
5) it helps me to stay in control of my emotions and gives me an effective outlet for them too

(think that this was back on topic)

oh and a right hook followed by a right reverse elbow really is the devils work guarateed KO luuurrrrvvveeeely

 

[jks9199]

Folks, things are drifting a tad away from a General Martial Arts forum topic. I think the discussion of faith and scripture is fascinating, and would be a great discussion, maybe in The Study, maybe in Philosophy & Spirituality in The Arts -- but let's try to stay on topic here.