Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies

[jks9199]

Don's points are very good. I mean I could say I worked with the Military (* one or two guys who retired or were reserve or even on leave worked out with me *), I could say I worked and taught local police, (* one or two sheriffs with an EMT or two trained for a while as well as other departments *), I could say I have taught at a University and should be called a Professor (* Self-defense class taught intramural *) or many other things to make it sound better than the truth is.

Yet, I find it so much easier to just remember the truth, and as this is what I remembered and others have seen and witnessed as well it is easier to verify or deal with, be it good or bad or indifferent for me.

You just hit on one of my pet peeves...

If you're going to say you trained military or law enforcement personel, fine. But be honest about the way you trained them; they came to your class, and took part as students, or they attended a seminar you taught once. Don't try to imply that your a police instructor because a cop took part in your class for families. Don't say that because a Navy SEAL or two joined your MMA club for a month or, on their own time and dime, brought you in to show your fancy knife techniques, that you "TRAINED THE NAVY SEALS!" Be honest; say you taught a seminar to a group of SEALs or whatever.

There are martial artists out there who legitimately train and instruct police; in my area, Maurice Allen, an internationally known Judoka, is one. He really does teach classes at several police academies in the area. I'm not, even though I am a police officer and field training instructor (but not defensive tactics instructor), and I've had other law enforcement officers as students. There's a lengthy list of people who contributed to the development of the USMC Martial Art program; they can make that claim. I can't, even though I've taught Marines.

And I hate it when people try to boost their credentials that way... Especially since some of them have plenty of legitimate credentials to claim! You can usually tell the ones who don't pretty quick...

As to titles... Well, some people say that I'm entitled to be called "master." I don't know; I called my instructor by his first name. I still do. I don't expect my students to kowtow to me or address me by silly names. Their conduct shows whether they respect me or not. If the tradition of an art uses the title "professor", that's fine. I consider it similar to an academic doctor versus a medical doctor here in the US; outside of the classroom/academic world, few academic doctors (PhDs) push to be called "Doctor." We generally reserve that for medical doctors here.

 

[MJS]

Mod Note

Thread moved to The Great Debate

Mike Slosek
MT SuperMod

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let's try and get back on track and talk about the virtue's or lack there of of martial arts accrediting bodies. My experience (and this is just mine) is that they really offer very little and yet want alot of money. Most of the info they generally give to their customer's is easily accessible on the internet for free or available in business journals etc. (heck I get a free one on martial arts because of a martial arts supply company that I deal with) However the above is just my opinon.

 

[Don Roley]

Let's try and get back on track and talk about the virtue's or lack there of of martial arts accrediting bodies. My experience (and this is just mine) is that they really offer very little and yet want alot of money.

Hmm, my experience with accreditation groups that will 'recognize' you as a soke, etc, is all about being able to pad a resume and duck questions about your qualifications.

We had one guy on this board (now banned) that made a lot of dubious claims. When people asked that he give some way of confirming what he said, he actually told us that since he had already proved his qualifications to (insert name here) he did not feel that he needed to do it again to anyone else. He actually tried to say that if the estemeed orginization found him worthy, who were we to dare to question their judgement.

And the kicker was that the orginzation was run by Jack Stern. Do a search of that name here on martialtalk.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hmm, my experience with accreditation groups that will 'recognize' you as a soke, etc, is all about being able to pad a resume and duck questions about your qualifications.

We had one guy on this board (now banned) that made a lot of dubious claims. When people asked that he give some way of confirming what he said, he actually told us that since he had already proved his qualifications to (insert name here) he did not feel that he needed to do it again to anyone else. He actually tried to say that if the estemeed orginization found him worthy, who were we to dare to question their judgement.

And the kicker was that the orginzation was run by Jack Stern. Do a search of that name here on martialtalk.

Yes Don I am in full agreement with you that martial arts accrediting bodies that certify someone who pays them money as a Soke Dokey or anything else is completely laughable. (completely) I have no respect for these types of organizations at all.

(nor will I ever associate with any)
They just have nothing to offer me!

Some other martial arts accrediting bodies are more geared towards teaching martial arts professionals how to run their business. This is the type of accrediting body that I was referring to in the above post. Simply put they ask you to pay them money to learn to run your martial arts business. However most of the info they give out is easily found for free with a little research. Having said that I do know a couple of individuals with large schools that have found them useful in the past. So I guess it is more of let the buyer beware. (that buyer being a martial artists who is interested in making martial arts their primary business)

 

[jks9199]

Yes Don I am in full agreement with you that martial arts accrediting bodies that certify someone who pays them money as a Soke Dokey or anything else is completely laughable. (completely) I have no respect for these types of organizations at all.

(nor will I ever associate with any)
They just have nothing to offer me!

Some other martial arts accrediting bodies are more geared towards teaching martial arts professionals how to run their business. This is the type of accrediting body that I was referring to in the above post. Simply put they ask you to pay them money to learn to run your martial arts business. However most of the info they give out is easily found for free with a little research. Having said that I do know a couple of individuals with large schools that have found them useful in the past. So I guess it is more of let the buyer beware. (that buyer being a martial artists who is interested in making martial arts their primary business)

I can see a limited place for some sort of accreditation for commercial martial arts instruction, simply to try to weed out dangerous situations in poorly run schools. I'd say it should be more along the lines of health & safety inspections than trying to assure the quality of teachers. In other words, making sure that mats are cleaned & in good repair, there's first aid kit available, that someone on the staff can do basic first aid, and so on. I think that, in the US, the market will ensure that well run schools that meet the needs of their students succeed, and poorly run schools that fail to answer the student's needs will fail. After all, even advanced college degrees and hundreds of hours of mentoring can't guarantee that a person will be a good academic teacher; it's no different in martial arts. You can give them all the classes you want -- there's no guarantee that they'll actually be able to apply them well.

I don't like and don't see room for complicated accreditation processes that end up locking people into certain ways of doing things to get that certificate. I know of one police agency that had a very progressive and very good field training program utilizing people whose sole job was to be field training instructors that had to dismantle the program and replace it with a set up that was inferior solely to meet the standards of an accreditation body. I've seen others institute policies that made no sense for the size of the force and the nature of the community because of accreditation requirements. In fact, several departments I know have a dedicated, several person staff who do nothing but accreditation record keeping and reviews...

 

[Don Roley]

I can see a limited place for some sort of accreditation for commercial martial arts instruction, simply to try to weed out dangerous situations in poorly run schools. I'd say it should be more along the lines of health & safety inspections than trying to assure the quality of teachers.

That subject has been raised and I pointed out that what you want should be applicable to all sports and businesses and probably run by local goverments than anything related to martial arts. Accreditation and governing just are not needed in martial arts for what you and I both want. But any business that has contact with kids (like a ballet school with changing rooms) should IMO be required to check all employees against a national registry of sex offenders and anyone teaching sports should have at least CPR training.

Trying to gain control over other martial arts groups and padding your resume with the excuse of protecting the children is just really vile IMO. But it seems the best way for these types to get what they want.

 

[jks9199]

That subject has been raised and I pointed out that what you want should be applicable to all sports and businesses and probably run by local goverments than anything related to martial arts. Accreditation and governing just are not needed in martial arts for what you and I both want. But any business that has contact with kids (like a ballet school with changing rooms) should IMO be required to check all employees against a national registry of sex offenders and anyone teaching sports should have at least CPR training.

Trying to gain control over other martial arts groups and padding your resume with the excuse of protecting the children is just really vile IMO. But it seems the best way for these types to get what they want.

I would have sworn I at least mentioned the previous discussion... But I guess not.

I don't think we're in any significant disagreement on the issue. I don't particularly want any outside body trying to regulate martial arts instruction. I don't see where the very few things it might do to improve the situation wouldn't be completely offset by the problems and interference. Add in the issue of regulating/accreditating/certifying the numerous free/non-profit/backyard/garage clubs... It's a nightmare. And probably unnecessary.

As to the kids -- as I said in that other thread, if the activities are significantly similar to a day care program, it IS a day care program, and should be regulated and overseen as such. I'm a huge believer in the principle that if something quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck -- treat it like a duck unless and until it proves itself different.

As to any sort of instructor credentialing -- that's best left to the combined efforts of the market forces and the various styles's organizations, like the American Bando Association, Japan Karate Association, Tae Kwon Do Federation, or Bujinkan, or Gracie Brazilian JuJitsu, to name a couple of them top of my head. They know their curriculae and who is skilled enough to teach. I couldn't begin to assess a Bujinkan instructor's fitness to teach their curriculum anymore than a Bujinkan instructor could assess my fitness to teach. And the market forces (even if it's free, the concept applies!) will push that only those teachers who satisfy their students continue to teach.