Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies

[Kacey]

This topic has been done to death already - look here, here, and here, to start. Then you might understand why people aren't agreeing with you.

Don,

Don't you ever get sick of living in the past? I've moved on. You mate seem stuck in the past. As stated I have a very good teacher. Why should I allow you to contact my teacher? I am sorry but I don't know you that well (even if I do know your type). Don, you seem like a reasonable type of person. So why the obsession with the past. I claim NO rank and Title and have got rid of my useless certificates, ranks and other such bull. I challenge you to do the same but then we both know that will never happen! To put it bluntly ... Grow up my friend! Stop living in the past!

The MAIA and IMA is NOT a "Soke" Board or group. It is headed by some of the most respected martial artists in the country (Australia). Thanks for at least taking the time to look over their site. As for the accreditation, well as stated, it has nothing at all to do with rank or title but to do with raising the general standard of the martial arts teacher. If you think they (MAIA and IMA) are "Soke" boads or something similar why not contact the Chairman of each group?



Are you telling me that having a Child Protection policy, a National (accepted) Code of Conduct, Accreditation Services, Prohibited Weapons policy etc are the hallmarks of some type of "Soke" board? Sorry but I really dont think you have done your homework on this subject.

Don, I wish you all the best for the future and hope that perhaps in the future we can communicate without all the uneccessary mud-slinging and negativity. I wish you and your family all the very best for the festive season. Stay well.

Who's being negative to whom, here?

 

[shifu]

Kacey,

Thanks for your post.. I am not trying to get people to agree with me but simply to put forward a subject for discussion. This is not about me personally as some have made it but about the pro's and con's of having accredititation ffor martial arts instructors.

Yes I guess you are right, I should strive to be above the type of negativity witnessed. Thank you.

 

[bydand]

Don,

Don't you ever get sick of living in the past? I've moved on. You mate seem stuck in the past. As stated I have a very good teacher. Why should I allow you to contact my teacher? Iam sorry but I don't know you that well (even if I do know your type). I claim NO rank and Title and have got rid of my useless certificates, ranks and other such bull. I challenge you to do the same but then we both know that will never happen! To put it bluntly ... Grow up my friend! Stop living in the past!

The MAIA and IMA is NOT a "Soke" Board or group. It is headed by some of the most respected martial artists in the country (Australia). Thanks for at least taking the time to look over their site. As for the accreditation, well as stated, it has nothing at all to do with rank or title but to do with raising the general standard of the martial arts teacher. If you think they (MAIA and IMA) are "Soke" boads or something similar why not contact the Chairman of each group?

Don,

Don't you ever get sick of living in the past? I've moved on. You mate seem stuck in the past. As stated I have a very good teacher. Why should I allow you to contact my teacher? I am sorry but I don't know you that well (even if I do know your type). Don, you seem like a reasonable type of person. So why the obsession with the past. I claim NO rank and Title and have got rid of my useless certificates, ranks and other such bull. I challenge you to do the same but then we both know that will never happen! To put it bluntly ... Grow up my friend! Stop living in the past!

The MAIA and IMA is NOT a "Soke" Board or group. It is headed by some of the most respected martial artists in the country (Australia). Thanks for at least taking the time to look over their site. As for the accreditation, well as stated, it has nothing at all to do with rank or title but to do with raising the general standard of the martial arts teacher. If you think they (MAIA and IMA) are "Soke" boads or something similar why not contact the Chairman of each group?

Don, I wish you all the best for the future and hope that perhaps in the future we can communicate without all the uneccessary mud-slinging and negativity. I wish you and your family all the very best for the festive season. Stay well.

Two for the price of one day? Granted, the first makes you sound tyrannical, and the second says the same but a bit more PC. If Don is stuck in the past, so am I then. I didn't post an answer the first time around because my thoughts were stated by several different members. Now, I will add my thoughts. Stuck in the past? Maybe, but (and we are talking J-Lo sized here) I would rather be stuck in the past than jump on this "future" bandwagon. I read through the sites you mentioned and came to the same conclusions Don posted. It is all in the wording, that will either make or break the deal, and the absolute authority that seems to be bantered about lightly is a BAD thing. It smacks of ego-driven posturing and a desire to rule over arts there is no knowledge in. That would be like me deciding who is a good Tai-Chi instructor, I have no idea of the art and no matter how much I did know of 100 other arts, that does NOT make me qualified to say who gets to teach 1 I do not know. There can never be a board filled with people who can realistically make those choices. It would come down to either money, politics, or a popularity contest. None of which has a place in the true Martial Arts. Belong if you want, but don't tell me I should because it will make me look old fashioned if I don't. I would rather be "stuck in the past" than told who I can, or cannot train under in this MA utopia.

 

[Don Roley]

Yes I guess you are right, I should strive to be above the type of negativity witnessed. Thank you.

Ah, another parting shot at me. You show your colors well.

And as a serious subject of debate, anyone who sets themselves up as teachers owes it to be totally open and honest about what qualifications they have to teach. And that means letting people talk to their former teachers. The people who can't or won't let people talk to their teachers are the folks like Ashida Kim and the Konnigun. They give great excuses, but it really comes down to the fact that they are making something up and/or have something to hide.

 

[Don Roley]

It is all in the wording, that will either make or break the deal, and the absolute authority that seems to be bantered about lightly is a BAD thing. It smacks of ego-driven posturing and a desire to rule over arts there is no knowledge in. That would be like me deciding who is a good Tai-Chi instructor, I have no idea of the art and no matter how much I did know of 100 other arts, that does NOT make me qualified to say who gets to teach 1 I do not know. There can never be a board filled with people who can realistically make those choices. It would come down to either money, politics, or a popularity contest.

This is one of my big questions with such groups, even if I were to find one that was not some sort of scam.

I have seen a lot of martial arts here in Japan. That is one part of a huge group when you consider other countries' martial arts like Savate, Wing Chun and Silat.

And I have seen a lot of sword stuff, which is an even smaller group. And yet, I know of no sword teacher that feels qualified to look at another Japanese sword art and say if it is qualified or not unless they are obviously an idiot.

So how can a guy from one art make a judgement about another art and determine if a guy from that art is qualified to teach that art or not. Even in things like kenjutsu you won't find legitimate people from Yagyu Shinkage ryu saying that someone is qualified to teach Katori Shinto ryu. Only the teachers of Katori Shinto ryu are qualified to do that. So there is no need for groups like this.

Every soke board I have run across says they are not a soke board. This group seems like a Soke board with a desire to control others and make people respect them.

 

[bydand]

Are you telling me that having a Child Protection policy, a National (accepted) Code of Conduct, Accreditation Services, Prohibited Weapons policy etc are the hallmarks of some type of "Soke" board? Sorry but I really dont think you have done your homework on this subject.

Jeeze a third version now. Just to answer this last bit that wasn't in the originals,
Nobody is saying that child protection, is a bad thing.

National Code of Conduct - maybe <said with hesitation>.

Accreditation Services - No, No, No, No! A panel has the knowledge to judge each and every Martial Arts Instructor, reguardless of style? Don't think so.

Prohibited weapons policy - Damn straight I'm against that one, too many arts use weapons as a major portion of their training and a board saying what it acceptable is unreasonable. Carrying weapons outside of training is a different ballgame altogether, and would fall under a whole different set of rules. One that shouldn't be overseen by a private board who has no civil authority.

Sorry, but Soke board or not, I don't care what it is called; IT'S A BAD IDEA!

 

[shifu]

Sorry Don, My bad. I am really not trying to start some type of flame war with you (or anyone else for that matter).

I take it back and am sorry if I have come across the wrong way.

I guess you raise some pretty good points and I take them on board. Its not how I see the two groups operating but I guess that from the outside they could well be viewed in this way. Thanks for the discussion.

As for individual styles well I guess its not so much about influencing same but in making the instructors more professional in their approach to teaching i.e. having a blood spill pol,icy, correct exercise practices etc.

This is one of the reasons I actually like the MAIA as it is Not about ranks and titles but about raising the awarness and level of practitioners so that they provide a more safer hopefully more professional environment for their students to learn in.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I work in Information Security and the need for accreditation is starting to become fairly necesary. How ever as it applies to martial arts I see a great deal of difficulty. The arts are not identical even among two practicitoners and the belt system (for some) doesn't seem to be consistant enough.

In trade skills you can test to see if you are proficient but I doubt you could do so for all the martial artists out there.

I think a body of registraur where they keep a copy of your credentials for people to reference is probably more needed. That way you just check to see if the dojo's references check out and boom you are on your way. A quick reporting of complaints to the registrar may weed out people who shouldn't be teaching.

I study and teach in a system with no belts. When one is good enough the instructor lets you know you can teach others.

No rank.

No titles.


I study and teach in another system where there is rank, and titles. And even within our limited community there are disagreements between which title and or who had what rank and if title superceded rank, etcetera, (* not meant to start the arguments/discussions all over *) there are differences in requirements and teaching styles and etcetera.


So, in one hypothetical system the instructor has to be a 3rd rank black or equivalent, while in others at 1st one can teach. The title master is used differnetly plus other titles that are unique to a specific system.

If one has integrity, and honesty then the prospective students will know and understand what you tell them. The issue of being recognized is to avoid frauds and while I dislike frauds, I know of no system that would work world wide for all ranks and all systems.

One could do a search on a person and find out what they have done in the internet. Yet there will be some who are good and capable instructors who are not on the web.

For some it is a good tool.

For others it is just another way for mutual admiration societies to promote others interested in their own mutual admiration.

Now, for those whohave public schools and work and advertise, they have to survive in the real world, and not in Rich's little world, where he can teach whoever he wishes and has income from another source. One might ask why is that an issue, as the average mom or dad who looks in the phone book or asks around wants the BEST for their son or daughter. So they will go for the person with the biggest title or the highest rank.

So if one needs this to eat, and can sleep at night then getting people to recognize your title or rank is what you have to do. Yet, others seem to just go for the closest school and could not care what rumors are going around town about this person be they good or bad. And still others, go for price be it the cheapest or the most expensive. I find the only really acceptable reason to train is to learn, be it for self-defense or physical fitness or ..., . If it is about your ego then one should re-evaluate why they are training or looking for recognition.

Then again I could be all wrong and full of hot air.

 

[Don Roley]

This is one of the reasons I actually like the MAIA as it is Not about ranks and titles but about raising the awarness and level of practitioners so that they provide a more safer hopefully more professional environment for their students to learn in.

Uh... take a look at the title of this thread. Accreditation. And that is what the MAIA. What is another word for Accreditation? If you answered rank, then you get a point.

Considering that it looks like the MAIA goes around and tries to convince people that rent space to martial artists to do so only to MAIA members, it seems that this is nothing but a power grab. If they merely laid out the rules that they thought people should follow as an article, that would be one thing. But considering that they want to force people to be part of thier orginization by legal means or scaring property owners, then they are control freaks.

And at the risk of sounding rude, if someone of your qualifications was able to get accredited by this group, then they have very low standards as I view things.

 

[shifu]

Accreditation Services - No, No, No, No! A panel has the knowledge to judge each and every Martial Arts Instructor, reguardless of style? Don't think so.

Scott,

Please let me explain, this process (Accreditation) is not a panel that judges every style but rather a course which deal with such subjects as correct exercise methods, legal requirements, marketing, drugs in sport, Child protection policy etc. After attending such a course one has to complete an extensive workbook and thesis on the subjects covered demonstarting a knowledge of the subject matter. It operates similar to this:

http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/training/tc_detail.asp?DateId=348

and this:

http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/training/tc_detail.asp?DateId=224

Such Accreditation covers:

• Planning
• Risk Management
• Self-reflection
• Principles of Training
• Endurance Training
• Speed, Strength and Power Training
• Flexibility Training
• Functional Anatomy
• Biomechanics
• Development & Maturation
• Nutrition
• Sports Psychology
• Sports Medicine
• Teaching Methods
• Skill Acquisition
• Communication
• Resource Management
• Drugs in Sport

I do agree with you on the Prohibited Weapons thing. We are already far too regulated in this area.

Rich,

Thanks for your post.

If it is about your ego then one should re-evaluate why they are training or looking for recognition.

I agree.

 

[shifu]

Don,

I feel your still judging me on the past but mate no offence taken. Us Aussies have thick skins LOL! I have NO qualifications. I have moved beyond the need for such ego-based things but hey thats me! Some like them or even feed off them. Me? I'm just happy to be in a position that I can learn more about my chosen art and myself.

 

[Don Roley]

Scott,

Please let me explain, this process (Accreditation) is not a panel that judges every style but rather a course which deal with such subjects as correct exercise methods, legal requirements, marketing, drugs in sport, Child protection policy etc.

None of these things has to be specific to martial arts. They can apply to all sports. And they really do not need to be set up by a board. They can be taught by articles and such. The only use of a martial art board like this is to gain control over others and to pad the resumes of people that join.

I can post my CPR certificate, my study with the Lethal Force Institute for legal matters, etc, for potential students to see without a group like yours ever getting involved. I really do not like the idea of people like yourself trying to scare places that rent space for dojos about non members.

 

[Don Roley]

Don,

I feel your still judging me on the past but mate no offence taken. Us Aussies have thick skins LOL! I have NO qualifications. I have moved beyond the need for such ego-based things but hey thats me!

Your past training is the past, but it is the thing that a potential student would judge you on. If you have no qualifications, you should not be teaching. I see the titles you use, the groups you set up with yourself at the head and the way you write about yourself. In my expeince, if someone says they have no ego, they have a huge one.

 

[shifu]

Don,

Thanks for the post. Its NOT my policy. I am just a member of this group and have nothing to do with the making of their policy. You raise some good points and to be honest I care little for the MAIA's policy on venue hire. I myself, disgaree with this aspect of their policy.

The more I read of this discussion the more sense the posts make to me. I have for some while been questioning my involvement with this group hence my posting this topic for discussion. Thanks again for your viewpoints.

 

[shifu]

Don,

As stated repeatedly I have moved on from the past. I hope others will as well. As for new students I ask them to judge me as I am now.

As for qualifications well I guess I could have explained this better. I don't hold true to the worthless ranks of the past especially those I was awarded on Okinawa! I have qualifications but they only serve to qualify the relationship I have with my teacher and do not stand as something I can or would consider using as a tool to impress others. As stated mate, I am pretty happy to keep my head down low and cruise along as I am without the baggage of ranks and titles. It's quite a freeing experience.

As for ego, well you got me there. I guess that we all, as human beings have an ego to a certain degree. It's how we approach it that matters I guess.

Thanks again for the discussions. I am enjoying it.

 

[bydand]

Scott,

Please let me explain, this process (Accreditation) is not a panel that judges every style but rather a course which deal with such subjects as correct exercise methods, legal requirements, marketing, drugs in sport, Child protection policy etc. After attending such a course one has to complete an extensive workbook and thesis on the subjects covered demonstarting a knowledge of the subject matter. It operates similar to this:

http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/training/tc_detail.asp?DateId=348

and this:

http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/training/tc_detail.asp?DateId=224

Such Accreditation covers:

• Planning
• Risk Management
• Self-reflection
• Principles of Training
• Endurance Training
• Speed, Strength and Power Training
• Flexibility Training
• Functional Anatomy
• Biomechanics
• Development & Maturation
• Nutrition
• Sports Psychology
• Sports Medicine
• Teaching Methods
• Skill Acquisition
• Communication
• Resource Management
• Drugs in Sport

I do agree with you on the Prohibited Weapons thing. We are already far too regulated in this area.

ac·cred·i·ta·tion (&#601;-kr&#283;d'&#301;-t&#257;'sh&#601;n)
n. The act of accrediting or the state of being accredited, especially the granting of approval to an institution of learning by an official review board after the school has met specific requirements.

From the American Heritage Dictonary of the English Language, 4th edition
Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and flies like a duck - it's a duck. Don't care what you call it, but it is still telling another person how to run their school and what policies and procedure WILL be used. That is quite presumptious on their part to think they know better than the poor dumb schmuck who is running their own schools now. Some of the ideas are very, very good ones, that I will agree with. Never said extra training on proper school management, or policy writing was a bad thing, the bad part comes when someone else trys to jam it down others necks because they think they know so much better, or more. That is in a nutshell why it is a bad idea.

 

[shifu]

Scott G,

Thanks for your post. I appreciate it. It gives me yet another viewpoint to consider on this subject! Thanks again.

 

[Don Roley]

As stated repeatedly I have moved on from the past. I hope others will as well. As for new students I ask them to judge me as I am now.

You judge a person on what they have done. If they have done things in the past that are without honor, then that is how you treat them. Especially if they try to say that what is in the past has no bearing on the present. I just went though a whole thing with a guy who was convicted of trying to sell secrets to the Soviet Union and he tried the same thing as you are now.

As for qualifications well I guess I could have explained this better. I don't hold true to the worthless ranks of the past especially those I was awarded on Okinawa!

I remember the story about those. It is one reason why going to the person that teaches you and asking them questions is so important. In your case, if people were to go to the guy you got your certificates from they could find out just how little time you actually spent with him (a few hours IIRC) and just how willing he is to give out certificates if people have the cash. So that is why just saying you have a rank from Okinawa or anything like that is useless compared to actually going to the teacher- which of course the frauds will not let you.

I have qualifications but they only serve to qualify the relationship I have with my teacher and do not stand as something I can or would consider using as a tool to impress others. As stated mate, I am pretty happy to keep my head down low and cruise along as I am without the baggage of ranks and titles. It's quite a freeing experience.

A doctor's qualifications are not there to "serve to qualify the relationship I have with my teacher" and martial arts are the same. The question is, has anyone said that the guy teaching has been trained by them to a level of competence to teach?

And as for a lack of titles, how about taking a look at the following site of yours.

http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken/html/chairman_shifu.html

It seems that you have your head rather high and have a pretty title of Quan Zhan, chairman, Sifu and whatever else you call yourself.

The question for a student would be, have you ever been trained in a white crane style to a level of competence that qualifies you to teach in the opinion of your teacher? And for that, you should be able to talk to the teacher. After all, 35 years of experience in martial arts could mean six months of lessons and 34.5 years of teaching. And someone who may have only met you once at an event and given you some pointers on your form can be listed as an advisor as seems to be the case with you. But of course, you can only find that type of thing out if you talk to the person themselves. And that is why it is the duty of the person setting himself up as a teacher to lay out how to contact anyone they claim taught them so that they can find out these type of things for themselves. Soke/ accreditation boards just do not cut it.

 

[shifu]

Don,

You raise some good points.

Its just a web site mate, don't get so hung up on it. No big deal. My student Luke made it and I think he did an okay kinda job.

I'm not about to enter into a long-winded and drawn out slanging match with you. I'll just leave it at that I respect your right to hold true to your views even though you and I have never met each other and you don't know me now.

Thanks again for the discussion. I appreciate it.

All the best.

 

[Rich Parsons]

None of these things has to be specific to martial arts. They can apply to all sports. And they really do not need to be set up by a board. They can be taught by articles and such. The only use of a martial art board like this is to gain control over others and to pad the resumes of people that join.

I can post my CPR certificate, my study with the Lethal Force Institute for legal matters, etc, for potential students to see without a group like yours ever getting involved. I really do not like the idea of people like yourself trying to scare places that rent space for dojos about non members.

Don's points are very good. I mean I could say I worked with the Military (* one or two guys who retired or were reserve or even on leave worked out with me *), I could say I worked and taught local police, (* one or two sheriffs with an EMT or two trained for a while as well as other departments *), I could say I have taught at a University and should be called a Professor (* Self-defense class taught intramural *) or many other things to make it sound better than the truth is.

Yet, I find it so much easier to just remember the truth, and as this is what I remembered and others have seen and witnessed as well it is easier to verify or deal with, be it good or bad or indifferent for me.

If I wish to be called a professor I will go get my Ph D and then get a position at a University. Otherwise all other teachings at a college or University would hold the title lecturer. I know it does not hold the same feeling in peoples mind, so I guess that is why I never mentioned it. :uhyeah:

I even state that I do Program Management in my profession, I do not state I am a Program Manager that has a specialized degree/certificate for such, which I do not have. I make sure those who ask understand the difference. I do it by on the job training, not schooling and certification or some other form of official recognition.

Some have used the title Master, with me, in one of the arts I train, and I have even asked people not to call me such. Some still do. In that art my instructor has no official titles, we use one for him out of respect in writing and one verbally which is cultural. He has not stated I am such and such a title. In fact he just smiled and laughed when I told him recently and he replied, "Maybe they recognize your superior skill. If they give you a bigger title then themselves it validates where they are as well." I told him, I asked not to be called such. He then explained to me (* which I knew *), that I cannot control what others say or think, but I can try to not take to my ego and carry it around, but to let those approach me who want to learn, and if I can help them then Great. If not then hopefully I have learned something then.