MA frauds

[Koshiki]

...if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?

To return to the OP. As most have said, I'd like to think most of us would do nothing about it, except for maybe talking to the person in question to learn more about them.

More than that, there is the possibility, albeit rare, that a dedicated individual, through sparring and training with others and careful study of books and videos, could become easily as competent as many, many school owners out there with verifiable teachers and lineages.

I guess what I'm getting at, is I'm much more worked up about whether someone is teaching well or is teaching absolute bunk, then I am about who their teacher was or wasn't...

 

[WaterGal]

I think having a legitimate lineage - or a certified rank from a major organizing body for your style - means that it's much more likely that what someone teaches will be the "real deal" for that style. Of course, that doesn't mean it'll be an effective fighting style, that they'll teach it well, that they have decent standards, etc. But I think they're more likely to actually understand the underlying principles of the style, how to generate power in the techniques, be experienced with that style of sparring, etc than someone who learned from just watching a video and practicing with their friends.

I do think that it's more common for a teacher to have a real lineage/certification but terrible standards, than to have a teacher who falsely claims rank in a style, though I've seen both. Both are disappointing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ones ability to fight is in no way an automatic indicator that they know anything, or have any real skill in a martial system or method. It is not difficult to hurt someone. You do not need an excellent martial system nor superior technique to do so. Raw aggression, natural talent, and simple athleticism can actually take one far and provide what is necessary to defeat even a well trained martial artist. So don't make the mistake of thinking that is an automatic indicator.

While being a good fighter, that person may have no method that he can teach or pass on to others. What makes him successful, even without a proper martial method backing him up, may be entirely innate and something he cannot teach to others.

He has nothing to teach, he has no knowledge and no martial skill that can be traced to a specific system or method, even tho he can fight.

Just an observation, kinda rhetorical.

 

[Hanzou]

So an online blue belt from Gracie University decided to pretend to be a 2 stripe black belt, and attempt to teach a Bjj class. The response from the Bjj community was swift, and decisive. Not only did this guy lose his job as a BJJ instructor at the dojo he was teaching at, but Rener Gracie dropped the hammer:

Rener Gracie

Based on the information gathered and the fact that Mr. McMahon has received no jiu-jitsu instruction from any sources outside of his study through Gracie University, we can conclude, without a doubt, that he is misrepresenting himself as a jiu-jitsu black belt.

Black Belts Are NOT Transferable

With the explosive popularity of MMA and jiu-jitsu, many martial arts schools are offering multiple disciplines under one roof. This, in and of itself, is not a problem. If however, a black belt instructor of one discipline such as Tang Soo Do, decides that he will wear a black belt when teaching a jiu-jitsu class, even though he is not a black belt in jiu-jitsu, this is called "Black Belt Transferring" and this is a SERIOUS problem.

There is a strict policy against Black Belt Transferring at all Gracie Academy Certified Training Centers, and even though Mr. McMahon is not certified to teach, and his school has no affiliation to the Gracie Academy, his actions are condemnable.

As jiu-jitsu's popularity continues to grow at an unprecedented rate, fraudulent black belts will continue to surface. It's up to the community to continue reporting suspicious activity so that people are not mislead regarding the authenticity of their instructor's rank or lineage.

All frauds must fall.
-Rener Gracie​

 

[kuniggety]

I saw this the other day in Gracie Insider. It's pathetic. I don't know how these guys think they won't get caught. The first time a real blue belt walks in and destroys him on the matts then the gig will be up.

 

[Koshiki]

I think having a legitimate lineage - or a certified rank from a major organizing body for your style - means that it's much more likely that what someone teaches will be the "real deal" for that style.

Oh, undoubtedly. The better your teacher, the better your training and learning likely was, therefore the better the teaching and training you provide will likely be.

However, it's still the teaching and training, not the lineage, that counts to me.

I do think that it's more common for a teacher to have a real lineage/certification but terrible standards, than to have a teacher who falsely claims rank in a style, though I've seen both.

Yeah, I definitely say that it's far more common to find a good martial who just isn't a good teacher, has low standards, is more interested in making money than teaching, than it is to find someone teaching who legitimately doesn't know what they're doing. I can think of a few of the former, but not many of the latter, from personal experience.

So an online blue belt from Gracie University decided to pretend to be a 2 stripe black belt, and attempt to teach a Bjj class. The response from the Bjj community was swift, and decisive. Not only did this guy lose his job as a BJJ instructor at the dojo he was teaching at, but Rener Gracie dropped the hammer.

Aside from BJJ just being pretty darn cool, this is one of my favorite aspects about the community. They are cohesive in their approach, and they don't suffer fools and pretenders gladly. It's nice to know that, if you walk into most BJJ classes, you'll generally get at least competent instruction in the real deal. Whereas, my own style for example, TKD, you can find everything from day-care classes with some bag work, to hard-core WTF sport training, to stuff that's basically just Karate with a few more kicks, to stuff that looks like it was basically made up on the spot.

 

[Hanzou]

I saw this the other day in Gracie Insider. It's pathetic. I don't know how these guys think they won't get caught. The first time a real blue belt walks in and destroys him on the matts then the gig will be up.

I don't get it either. Of all things to fake, don't fake being a Bjj black belt. The Bjj culture has been structured to the point where anyone wearing a black belt has the equivalent of a target on their back.

 

[Hyoho]

that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal. but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert. the last video has me guessing as well. i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system. thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).

Jigenryu did not have a heihosho until the present headmaster Togo Shigenori took over when his father passed away. They used to meet by arrangement and move from place to place. The present heihosho has a shiriokan (small museum next door) and the family live behind.

I can assure you this is this one and only heihosho in Kagoshima. I have practiced there myself after doing an embu at Saigo Takamori's Shrine. More info here on an old post. Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu?

 

[Koshiki]

Of all things to fake, don't fake being a Bjj black belt.

I know. If I wanted to fake a martial arts background, I wouldn't choose something that every layman has heard of, that constantly tests itself in and is structured around competition, and that has a relatively pervasive and centralized authority...

I'd choose some obscure or fictitious art and discourage outside communication and sparring. I'd want something where no one would even know what a legitimate knowledge of the system would entail, let alone how to challenge it...

 

[Hyoho]

I complain about YouTube but in a way its good as it really shows up the fakers to the trained eye. It only fools those inexperienced that might want to join. A lot of time its inexperienced that post this stuff anyway. A 'belt belt' is a qualified beginner. It starts with 7/8 kyu ranks whatever then goes to 7/8 dans depending on the "invented system". An association awards rank. Start you own association and anything goes!

 

[Balrog]

Then there was another kind of fraud altogether. They were well versed in cherry picking students who had large egos and even larger wallets. They would run background checks on their students, get full family histories. Then they'd start playing to the right egos. They'd film them and then "send the tape to the exalted, high Master" in the old country. Then they'd tell them the Master sees something in them that he rarely sees anymore. He wants them to enroll in an advanced instructors course. Seventy thousand dollars later (in less than eighteen months) he would be filmed again, tape sent to the Master, and be encouraged to enroll in the Grand Poobah Master's Program.

I know what you're thinking, "Nobody would fall for that!" Unfortunately, they would and did. I worked with the FBI to get some of these Mother F'rs shut down and convicted. They, too, were a national chain.

So, to me, there's different levels of fraud.

I remember the big scandal with Master John C. Kim back in the 90s. They had a school about 8 blocks down the road from where I trained and they charged humongo fees. I remember a newspaper ad they ran where they offered an accelerated program to earn Black Belt in one year for only (!) $20,000. My instructor looked at that and laughed and said, "I gotta raise my rates." Back then, we were paying $65 a month . About six months later was when the scandal blew up and a few months after that, their school had closed and the building was taken over by a video rental store.

A couple of years after that, we had to move the school. We chose a location that had previously been built out as a Taekwondo school. When we opened, we had several of the former students from that school stop by looking for the instructor. Seems she had presold a bunch of training programs, then shut the doors in the night and vanished with the cash. I was astounded and told every one those folks to come train with me at no charge - even though she wasn't in my organization, she made the rest of us look bad and I told those students I would make it right for them. I picked up about a dozen students that trained to at least 1st Degree with me out of that.

 

[Balrog]

I know. If I wanted to fake a martial arts background, I wouldn't choose something that every layman has heard of, that constantly tests itself in and is structured around competition, and that has a relatively pervasive and centralized authority...

I'd choose some obscure or fictitious art and discourage outside communication and sparring. I'd want something where no one would even know what a legitimate knowledge of the system would entail, let alone how to challenge it...

Agreed. That is a big thing with us when we have new prospects come visit the school. We can show them our rank certificates and call up our entire testing history from White Belt onward on the organization website. I've had a couple of folks ask what our lineage is and we are happy to show them.

 

[Buka]

A couple of years after that, we had to move the school. We chose a location that had previously been built out as a Taekwondo school. When we opened, we had several of the former students from that school stop by looking for the instructor. Seems she had presold a bunch of training programs, then shut the doors in the night and vanished with the cash. I was astounded and told every one those folks to come train with me at no charge - even though she wasn't in my organization, she made the rest of us look bad and I told those students I would make it right for them. I picked up about a dozen students that trained to at least 1st Degree with me out of that.

That's so awesome. The Martial Arts need more like you, my friend.

 

[punisher73]

I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?

The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:

1) GU students cannot be ranked past blue belt without in-person evaluation. Certainly no one will be getting a legit BJJ black belt online.
2) GU students who have been awarded rank through that system are listed online, so if someone was (for some reason) faking being a GU blue belt they would be easy to expose.
3) The standards for GU rank are publicly available. You might or might not agree with them, but there's no fraud involved. If someone has a GU blue belt you can say exactly what that means.

One minor change to how the GU does things now. If you ONLY do the online/video training with a partner and send in your test, you only qualify for a "technical blue belt" now, a minor variation on the actual blue belt rank. For ANY rank, it must be done live at one of their approved testing centers/schools.

 

[punisher73]

As to the whole martial arts "frauds" thing. I think honesty is the key. If you studied x, y and z and put it together into your own thing and call it something else. That's fine, just be honest that it is your own thing.

But, even back in Funakoshi's day, he commented in his autobiography about new schools popping up with styles he had never heard of before. Nothing new under the sun. I have heard many stories of cross-oceanic promotions in many styles. The person was a 1st or 2nd degree when they got on the plane and landed as a 5th or above. Rank is fickle, in reality it has no meaning outside of its own school/organization. Which is more impressive to people who really know martial arts, a black belt in TKD or a black belt in BJJ? Judgment aside, we know that it is VERY hard to get a blackbelt in BJJ and in many places, you can sign a contract to get a TKD blackbelt in 1-2 years. The year TKD blackbelt now opens a school and starts teaching, it's not "fraudulant", but you are also not going to be getting a high quality study probably. Then THOSE students get rank and then pass it on and so forth. But it is all "legit".....So again--rank, lineage etc. are not good indicators of anything in today's world.

Of course, there is something to be said about the "old days" if you declared a new style that you took on all challenges to show that what you were doing was legitimate. Even then, just because the founder was a good fighter doesn't mean that he is a good teacher and can impart those skills to others. I think we can all use our "google-fu" and find some very popular styles that are thought of as jokes now because the founders changed the training to make it easier and more marketable to the masses and lots got lost to it's effectiveness (even though it is still there in the katas/forms and drills for those who seek it).

 

[Dirty Dog]

Rank is fickle, in reality it has no meaning outside of its own school/organization. Which is more impressive to people who really know martial arts, a black belt in TKD or a black belt in BJJ

Neither. Because, as you said, rank has no real meaning outside the school/org that issues it. That could be the weakest BJJ in the world, and an Olympic gold medal winning Tae Kwon Do competitor.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The person was a 1st or 2nd degree when they got on the plane and landed as a 5th or above.

One of my old Hapkido instructors did that. It reminds me of the scene in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey when they were at the concert and were still not very good so they went away in their Phone booth time machine for "an intense 16 months of guitar training" and came back a few seconds later playing like pros.

 

[Paul_D]

The flip side of the coin is what do we you about instructors with high ranks, in legitimate system, with traceable histories that teach things that we know to be incorrect or unworkable?

Some of the biggest nonsense I have been taught has been taught to me by high ranking instructors in legitimate arts with traceable histories.

I will use Karate as an example, purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.

We know that there are no blocks in karate, and that when Karate was introduced to the Okinawan schools Itosu disguised techniques as “blocks” as the real techniques were too dangerous to give to children (joint manipulation./breaks, throws etc). The idea of course was that when they became adults, the real nature of the movements would be revealed to them. Unfortunately it was this children’s version of karate that eventually became popular and spread. Hence we today have instructors teaching "blocks". Now I am not suggestion they are deliberately trying to mislead their students, they are just passing on in good faith what they were taught. (Before the internet of course the only information available to students was what was given to them by their instructors and was taken at face value, hence situations such as this have arisen).

Similarly the turns in Kata are often (incorrectly) taught as “turns to face a new enemy”. This was rubbished as far back as 1938 my Mabuni “The meaning of the directions in kata is not well understood, and frequently mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata movements. In extreme cases, it is sometimes heard that "this kata moves in 8 directions so it is designed for fighting 8 opponents" or some such nonsense.”

Mabuni is explicitly clear that the angle is not the angle of attack form the enemy (as most modern karateka believe), but the angle we assume in relation to the enemy, in order to be in the best position for the technique in question.

These things we know to be inaccurate (or false if you will) and yet they are prevalent in many karate classes to this day. Here however the cloak of legitimate rank and traceable history paints over the cracks.

I am sure there are other examples in other arts of course, but as stated, I have used Karate purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.

They only thing we can do is to put the real message out there, Youtube, websites etc and hope that eventually a student’s thirst for knowledge will lead them to question the legitimacy of what they are being taught, whether it is by a charlatan trying to fleece them, or instructors with legitimate ranks who unknowingly (or perhaps knowingly) are passing on false information.

 

[lklawson]

The flip side of the coin is what do we you about instructors with high ranks, in legitimate system, with traceable histories that teach things that we know to be incorrect or unworkable?

The same as for "frauds." To whit: "nothing." Just ignore it and teach what you believe to be valid.

I will use Karate as an example, purely as it is the example about which I have the most information.

We know that there are no blocks in karate, and that when Karate was introduced to the Okinawan schools Itosu disguised techniques as “blocks” as the real techniques were too dangerous to give to children (joint manipulation./breaks, throws etc).

3... 2... 1... annnnnd GO!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Neither. Because, as you said, rank has no real meaning outside the school/org that issues it. That could be the weakest BJJ in the world, and an Olympic gold medal winning Tae Kwon Do competitor.

True, knowing just their ranks doesn't give you enough information to necessarily distinguish between two practitioners. There are (just for an example) many, many TKD black belts out there who are much more accomplished martial artists than I am.

What the BJJ community is vociferous about is brand protection of a sort - making sure that any BJJ black belt from any school or organization can be expected to live up to certain (reasonably high) minimum standards. (Using myself again as an example - I'm a lot closer to the worst BJJ black belt in the world than I am to the best, but I'm still a reasonably competent martial artist.) Calling out fraudulent black belts is part of the brand protection process. I've seen several examples in this last year or so of fake BJJ black belts being called out (sometimes with the confrontation being captured on YouTube) and being publically humiliated and/or losing the teaching position they had gotten using their fraudulent credentials.

Right now, there's a bit of a furor in the online BJJ community over a couple of teenage girls who are running a school in Colorado. Apparently these girls had earned black belts in either Kajukenbo (or some Kajukenbo-derived hybrid art, it's unclear which) under their old instructor before said instructor went to prison for child molestation. Their parents bought the school when the old instructor was locked up and the girls took over as teachers. The girls then got blue belts from the Gracie University and went through instructor training so they could set up their school as a Gracie Certified Training Center where they teach both BJJ and whatever their hybrid striking art is.

This would be annoying enough to many BJJ folks, especially since they are competing with an established BJJ school that has multiple black belts, but at least some folks would be inclined to roll their eyes and move on. What really stirred an uproar is that the girls apparently decided that their striking art should use the same design of black belt that BJJ does. This design (with a red panel indicating instructor status on which stripes are added to denote degrees) is pretty unique to BJJ. I don't think I've seen it used in any other art.

Supposedly the girls wear their blue belts when teaching BJJ classes and their black belts when teaching their striking art. However pictures emerged of them wearing their BJJ-style black belts over their BJJ gis and this was widely interpreted as them claiming BJJ black belt rank. They've denied that was their intention, but there's been a big stink about it regardless.

I imagine that at some point down the line the battle may be lost and there will be enough fraudulent and/or substandard BJJ black belts that the rank will be meaningless unless you know the standards of the particular instructor/organization that promoted them, just as it is in most other martial arts. In the meantime, the brand protection process has succeeded to the extent that you can expect a certain minimum competence from any BJJ black belt, regardless of their lineage.