Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?

[K-man]

Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.

I just watched them again and I'm sorry to disagree. I am not familiar with the kata but I have no problem with how it was performed. Same with the bo.

And as for origins, word in Aikido circles is that Choi Yong-Sool trained with Ueshiba in Japan.

 

[drop bear]

My issue would be things like this.
BECOMING A MUAY THAI ?KRU? » The Official Luke Holloway Site

Now Luke is a master Thai trainer seen with all the cool guys but who has never had a fight himself and never trained a Thai fighter.

If some chimp goes to him expecting to gain skills that would let them survive a ring fight that chimp is going to get hurt.

 

[WaterGal]

I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou?

I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.

Sometimes, I have half the mind to enter a forms competition and just pick one small section to work on freely and repeatedly for 10 minutes without any pretense of performance

I think the reason there's so much focus on "looking good", on having every technique be sharp and picture-perfect and having very high kicks (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "looking good") is because it demonstrates strength, balance, power, and control and shows that you know all the techniques very well. I mean, for example, nobody in a real fight is going to do a head-level side kick and just hold it there for a couple seconds like you see in competitions, but it takes a lot of balance, strength, and skill to be physically able to do that. Any white belt can do a mid-level side kick, so doing the form the other way makes you stand out as having more skill and training. (Edit: To clarify, I don't meant that someone that chooses to do a form with a mid-level side kick doesn't have skill or strength or the ability to do more.)

 

[Marnetmar]

Agree 100% with that one. As I said earlier some terrible sword taking.
:asian:

Just think though, a Katana is capable of slashing through someone's body in a tenth of a second.

 

[Balrog]

I have no time for frauds, charlatans and fools. Fraud in the martial arts is some thing we should all be concerned about. Like Blindside said if someone asks me for my opinion I will gladly give it and with brutal honesty. Likewise my time is way to valuable for me to be chasing down every piss poor martial artist and fraudulent instructor.

Yet, I do believe in standing up for what is right and if I feel I can make a difference in some way or to help someone stay away from fraudulent people then I will! I wrote a blog post about this awhile ago and it also links to an even better post on this subject by Don Roley on his excellent blog.

Frauds In The Martial Sciences?? | The Instinctive Edge?

I would advise anyone before training to investigate who they will be training with. Do a google search at the very least!

Good advice. It's because of all the fly-by-night scam artists in the past that we today have difficulties running schools.

When I have a new prospect visit the school, they will see my rank certificate and my Master's certificate and my school license very openly displayed for all to see. In the office, I have photo plaques of the original owner (my instructor), the second owner (now inactive) and me as the third owner of this school. I've never had anyone ask about my training, but if they did, I can open up a web browser and show them my entire testing history, and I can give them the 800 number for ATA HQ to verify my standing as an instructor.

 

[K-man]

Just think though, a Katana is capable of slashing through someone's body in a tenth of a second.

There are legitimate disarms against the sword and there are numerous empty hand techniques based on the movement you would perform with a sword. One of those disarms involves placing your hand on the back of the sword. I tried to enlarge the video to see what was done but the quality is too poor to see. I'll just go with sloppy for now.

Would I like to be facing a real live Katana empty handed? No way!
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are legitimate disarms against the sword and there are numerous empty hand techniques based on the movement you would perform with a sword. One of those disarms involves placing your hand on the back of the sword. I tried to enlarge the video to see what was done but the quality is too poor to see. I'll just go with sloppy for now.

Would I like to be facing a real live Katana empty handed? No way!
:asian:

"Sloppy" is being polite. I'm seeing serious problems with both the sword attacks and the disarms. Doesn't mean they're fraudulent - but I wouldn't want them publicly representing my school.

 

[pgsmith]

My issue would be things like this.
BECOMING A MUAY THAI ?KRU? » The Official Luke Holloway Site

Now Luke is a master Thai trainer seen with all the cool guys but who has never had a fight himself and never trained a Thai fighter.

If some chimp goes to him expecting to gain skills that would let them survive a ring fight that chimp is going to get hurt.

However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?

 

[drop bear]

However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?

I like the idea that martial arts is a comunity.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?

Caveat Emptor. The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin.

To be fair though, you don't necessarily have to be stupid to get duped.

 

[MJS]

So recently a dojo has come under attack for being fraudulent. This dojo claims to combine Ninjutsu, Aikijutsu, and some other unpronounceable ancient Japanese arts, and began to really promote their art to the world via YouTube and other social media. The online MA community responded in kind, quickly investigating this dojo, and discovering that a lot of their claims are false or made up. Their demonstrations are full of silly things that any experienced artist could see is completely bogus. Yet this school appears quite successful, and full of students who enjoy their training.

The "Soke" hasn't been too happy with the criticism of his style, and has responded in kind, with his students defending him, and his training methods.

While I find all of this entertaining, I can't help but wonder if we as martial artists should allow such places to exist. Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore. However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts? Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed? Conversely, should we live and let live, and hope that the students eventually find a legitimate style to train in?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Personally, I'm not interested in being a card carrying member of the Martial Arts Police Dept. If someone wants to be a fake, fraud, do shady things...well, sure it sucks, sure it makes me mad, to see these fake idiots, scamming unsuspecting people out of their hard earned money, but in the end, what can you do? If someone asks me, and they have, about a school, if I have a recommendation, etc, sure, I'll be more than happy to guide them in the right direction, but other than that, I have no desire to 'storm' a dojo. Sorry, I've got better things to do with my time. In the end, the actions of the frauds, will eventually come to light. They'll have to answer for their shady actions.

 

[Balrog]

LOL. I hear you. But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago. You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes. Crab cakes are an East Coast treat. Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook. Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).

Well, kindasorta. Suppose old Boudreaux, for whatever reason, moved to Seattle with his family recipes and opened a Cajun place there. Does that make his jambalaya or his hushpuppies or his grillades and grits any less authentic?

My wife is originally from New Orleans and she can smell out a good Louisiana restaurant within 20 miles of the house. We had one we used to go to all the time until the owner retired and sold it (breaking our hearts in the process). The guy that ran it was an old swamprunner from down by New Iberia who moved to Houston 30 some-odd years before. Once he got to know us as regulars and found out that SWMBO knows her way around a kitchen and can make a roux, he'd see us come up to the door and he'd hustle over and put his arm around her shoulder and say stuff like, "You come on with me, cher, I take good care of you. Him, if he wants to tag along behind, dat's okay, too." And then we would order and he'd always add something on as a surprise. He'd bring out a bowl of "special" gumbo or etouffee or something and set it down in front of her and say, "Heah, cher, dis for you. You wanna give him a little taste of it, dat's up to you." And then they would talk recipes and cooking.

We really miss that place. And now I'm hungry.

 

[Steve]

Hidden gems are great like that, but I'm talking rule not exception. You can find authentic sushi in America. But that's not the norm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[tshadowchaser]

seems like there a only a couple of tings that can be done with Frauds in the arts.

1. go in and close the school the way it was done 40-50 years ago

2. have the better business people get involved and the local newspaper ( maybe an investigated article)

3. Have the local district attorney get involed

now do we really want number 2 and 3? I for one do not want government involved. Plus if you can not prove
the person is a fraud you are open to all sorts of legal action. I do like number one but once again the legal people frown an that sort of thing.

So other than just telling someone your opinion if asked what can be done

 

[TXRob]

Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?

What is a fraudulent style? Who gets to decide? Now there may be fraudulent claims of experience, or who they trained with, but style?

I have seen bad Masters within all credible organizations. No organization is without polotics! I have seen some of the best martial artist come out of back yard clubs with no affiliation at all. Rank is within one's own dojo or organization. Organizations are like Universities that don't allow all credits to transfer.
The fact is if students are flocking to the fraud, that is what they want. Hey earn a Green Belt in a couple of styles, throw in a little boxing, and you can open a school and call it MMA. Your school will be full!
If you keep teaching with strict protocal, trying to provide certification for your students, you can wind up like me, without a school!

 

[Buka]

Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?

What is a fraudulent style? Who gets to decide? Now there may be fraudulent claims of experience, or who they trained with, but style?

I have seen bad Masters within all credible organizations. No organization is without polotics! I have seen some of the best martial artist come out of back yard clubs with no affiliation at all. Rank is within one's own dojo or organization. Organizations are like Universities that don't allow all credits to transfer.
The fact is if students are flocking to the fraud, that is what they want. Hey earn a Green Belt in a couple of styles, throw in a little boxing, and you can open a school and call it MMA. Your school will be full!
If you keep teaching with strict protocal, trying to provide certification for your students, you can wind up like me, without a school!

Welcome to the forum, TXRob. Glad to have you aboard.

 

[Buka]

Caveat Emptor. The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin.

To be fair though, you don't necessarily have to be stupid to get duped.

"The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin." Damn, I really love that line.