So my journey took me to the hapkido school last night...

[Tez3]

No I'm not having 'fun' at your expense. I think you are imaging things that aren't there though. First, we allow them to keep their own belts on but do not and as I said is understood by everyone, they know that belt is for their previous style and not in our style. if they haven't trained our style before they start at white belt albeit wearing a belt from their previous style and if they can grade, they will do so and then they can wear ours. We do not lie to them that X belt is equal to Y belt, they know for example that the green TKD belt is a green TKD belt and not our green belt. I'm rather shocked that you think we lie to them, I think you have misunderstood how we work.

When a new student arrives, they tell us what experience they have had, they are allowed to wear the belt from that style while training with us. They train our style and will grade from white belt up in our style, they then can wear our belt. I'm not sure what you think we do. You seem to think we grade them from their previous style's belt? Not everyone wants to or is able to grade so they don't and remain wearing their styles belt but everyone knows it's not our styles belt. If they grade it is exactly the same standard to everyone else who being in the same boat as them understands what is going on. We are a military club after all. Perhaps you don't understand it but all the students understand and approve of how we work.

We don't let them keep their belts to pander to their egos but to make the transition to our style easier, to show them we understand that we respect their previous training . Service children put up with a lot in their young lives especially over the past few years, they are the last children who are ever molly coddled and a bit of recognition that they worked hard in their previous styles isn't lying to them or handing belts out for nothing. Why you would assume we might as well give out black belts at the door I've no idea, we have never had the chance to award a black belt in 16 years of existing, why would we give them out?

 

[oftheherd1]

iklawson - From what it sounds like, TEZ3's school has a lot of, maybe only, young children. As I'm sure you know, their mental outlook is different from that of a teenager, let alone an adult. Telling them in effect that they can never progress beyond white belt isn't how a kid thinks. Surely you must teach children in your school. Probably you keep some of them for a long time. Anyone who isn't supporting a military clientele may not appreciate the frequency with which military personnel are transferred. If they are lucky, they get to take their family with them. By your reasoning, off to another bout of white belt teaching.

I understand what you are thinking and saying, and want to agree completely. But with kids who are children of military, therefore mobile parents, some accommodation is probably in order. If any student does not feel they are progressing in a martial art, or math, or language, or history, or whatever, how will you keep them interested? Can you keep them interested?

 

[Tez3]

We are doing our best to help and work in a way that we have found is beneficial WITHOUT compromising our standards in martial arts.




Helping the children of military families | BPS
Mike Hughesman, a Chartered Psychologist, was Principal Educational Psychologist 2000-12 for Service Children’s Education with the Ministry of Defence (MoD). He comments:

“There can be no doubt that children from service families need to contend with particular challenges that result directly and indirectly from military lifestyle. Service families face a relatively high level of domestic relocation and changes of school; they must cope with having a parent away for extended period, sometimes on operations where there is a risk of serious injury or death; even when the parent does return, the after-effects of a stressful deployment can persist.”

 

[Tez3]

iklawson - From what it sounds like, TEZ3's school has a lot of, maybe only, young children. As I'm sure you know, their mental outlook is different from that of a teenager, let alone an adult. Telling them in effect that they can never progress beyond white belt isn't how a kid thinks. Surely you must teach children in your school. Probably you keep some of them for a long time. Anyone who isn't supporting a military clientele may not appreciate the frequency with which military personnel are transferred. If they are lucky, they get to take their family with them. By your reasoning, off to another bout of white belt teaching.

I understand what you are thinking and saying, and want to agree completely. But with kids who are children of military, therefore mobile parents, some accommodation is probably in order. If any student does not feel they are progressing in a martial art, or math, or language, or history, or whatever, how will you keep them interested? Can you keep them interested?

We take children from 7-14, the adults take MMA not just because it's the 'fashion' but because there is no grading system. Many of our students when in Afghan found American and Canadian military to train with.

We try to make sure that children who have earnt a belt can actually wear it until they grade again in our style, for a child to go from white belt in for example TKD to yellow then have to go back to white then earn yellow karate then back to white then yellow in TSD then back to white then to yellow in Judo is soul destroying for kids along with the other things they have to worry about. We will allow then to wear their yellow belt in whatever style until they earn their yellow with us, they understand they are white belts in our style just fine. They aren't stupid but they understand we recognise they have a grading in another style.

 

[lklawson]

No I'm not having 'fun' at your expense. I think you are imaging things that aren't there though. First, we allow them to keep their own belts on but do not and as I said is understood by everyone, they know that belt is for their previous style and not in our style. if they haven't trained our style before they start at white belt albeit wearing a belt from their previous style and if they can grade, they will do so and then they can wear ours. We do not lie to them that X belt is equal to Y belt, they know for example that the green TKD belt is a green TKD belt and not our green belt. I'm rather shocked that you think we lie to them, I think you have misunderstood how we work.

When a new student arrives, they tell us what experience they have had, they are allowed to wear the belt from that style while training with us. They train our style and will grade from white belt up in our style, they then can wear our belt. I'm not sure what you think we do. You seem to think we grade them from their previous style's belt? Not everyone wants to or is able to grade so they don't and remain wearing their styles belt but everyone knows it's not our styles belt. If they grade it is exactly the same standard to everyone else who being in the same boat as them understands what is going on. We are a military club after all. Perhaps you don't understand it but all the students understand and approve of how we work.

We don't let them keep their belts to pander to their egos but to make the transition to our style easier, to show them we understand that we respect their previous training . Service children put up with a lot in their young lives especially over the past few years, they are the last children who are ever molly coddled and a bit of recognition that they worked hard in their previous styles isn't lying to them or handing belts out for nothing. Why you would assume we might as well give out black belts at the door I've no idea, we have never had the chance to award a black belt in 16 years of existing, why would we give them out?

Then what's the freaking point of a belt? It's supposed to be a visible representation of the skill so that one can, at a glance, tell what minimum level of training and skill any random student has. Your method of allowing anyone to wear a belt which (they claim) came from another system kinda blows up the usefulness of colored belts entirely. It makes belts pointless. Just train in whatever cloths you like, like RBSD or old school WC, and give them certificates.

As far as not understanding a "military club." You make too many assumptions. My day job is on Wright-Patterson AFB.

 

[lklawson]

iklawson -

LKLAWSON. I have had the same username, on various info systems, for 30 years. I usually lower-case the whole thing. First Initial, Middle Initial, Last Name.

From what it sounds like, TEZ3's school has a lot of, maybe only, young children. As I'm sure you know, their mental outlook is different from that of a teenager, let alone an adult. Telling them in effect that they can never progress beyond white belt isn't how a kid thinks. Surely you must teach children in your school.

At Judo, if they don't hold a grade from an affiliate organization, then the strap on a white belt. At Western Martial Arts, I don't teach children unless the family is close friends. I've done so twice.

Probably you keep some of them for a long time. Anyone who isn't supporting a military clientele may not appreciate the frequency with which military personnel are transferred. If they are lucky, they get to take their family with them.

Or maybe I do understand perfectly. Trust me. I do.

By your reasoning, off to another bout of white belt teaching.

Yup.

I understand what you are thinking and saying, and want to agree completely.

Good.

But with kids who are children of military, therefore mobile parents, some accommodation is probably in order.

If they have the skills and can prove it, then batsugun them. It's why the option exists.

If any student does not feel they are progressing in a martial art, or math, or language, or history, or whatever, how will you keep them interested? Can you keep them interested?

Yes. I teach fun stuff with direct application.

 

[Tez3]

Then what's the freaking point of a belt? It's supposed to be a visible representation of the skill so that one can, at a glance, tell what minimum level of training and skill any random student has. Your method of allowing anyone to wear a belt which (they claim) came from another system kinda blows up the usefulness of colored belts entirely. It makes belts pointless. Just train in whatever cloths you like, like RBSD or old school WC, and give them certificates.

As far as not understanding a "military club." You make too many assumptions. My day job is on Wright-Patterson AFB.

And you have made so many assumptions I don't know where to begin. Firstly that our students are possibly liars...you don't think we contact their previous clubs and confirm their grading and that we don't know who their previous instructors were.

Working on an air force base isn't the same as being on an army base that has lost over 50 soldiers, had over 30 triple amputees, 40 double amputees and numerous other injured just in the last four years. We have a regiment still in Afghanistan.

Okay so it's major crime in your eyes to allow a child to wear a belt from another style for a few months until they grade with us, fine, we'll get over it.

 

[lklawson]

We try to make sure that children who have earnt a belt can actually wear it until they grade again in our style, for a child to go from white belt in for example TKD to yellow then have to go back to white then earn yellow karate then back to white then yellow in TSD then back to white then to yellow in Judo is soul destroying for kids

No, I haven't seen any actual evidence of this, despite hearing it repeated many times.

They aren't stupid but they understand we recognise they have a grading in another style.

If they're that smart, then how would it be "soul destroying?"

I'm sorry, but like I wrote, I just don't think we're going to find common ground on this.

 

[lklawson]

Okay so it's major crime in your eyes

What the hell?!?!

Why do I even bother trying to be polite any more. <sigh>

 

[Tez3]

Evidence? You had no evidence that British army dependents don't move regularly and have to change school, sports and leisure clubs so therefore you don't believe they do?

I don't suppose you understand the constant thing about always being 'new', always having to make new friends everywhere, always having to catch up, always being the newbie and with the attendant bullying that attracts. Of always being left out of teams because they'd been picked before you arrived, of knowing you are moving on again shortly so even if you do make friends, make teams etc it's all going to start again soon. They are constant outsiders, never feeling included. All the while worrying about their parent/s.

We accept children in our classes, we allow them to keep their old belt, so what. It helps them settle in, you don't like that well I can't help that. It's probably one of those things you have to have lived to understand. I was in the military as was my husband, he did numerous tours in Northern Ireland and was in the Falklands war, anything that made my children feel secure helped. Our chief instructor was in the First Gulf War as an army combat medic, he has three children, we understand what helps the children and what causes very real stress, going to our martial arts is the very last place they should be feeling like outsiders. We should be helping them cope in the difficult times and if it just takes little things like wearing a belt from another style then that how it will be. They are introduced to the others as being from another style and they get respect for being martial artists from martial artists then we get on with training.

This article from a few years ago has two of the fathers of the children we taught in it.
104.7 Minster FM - News - York pays tribute to six British soldiers killed in Afghanistan

 

[Tez3]

You can dislike my posts as much as you like, you can dislike the fact that we are actually part of the British Army's Welfare System, you can dislike the fact that we put children before anything else, you can dislike the fact that we manage to have martial arts standards while teaching children who will be leaving us at any time, you can dislike that we aren't a civilian club, you can dislike everything we stand for, it's fine.

You started off by assuming we graded children from the belts they gained in another style, then you assumed we didn't have standards, you assumed we lied to everyone, you have assumed so much that you are correct there is no common ground. You have ranted about styles not being the same as each other,, that one language isn't another, to what point? We welcome everyone to the club, everyone knows what each other's belt is for, everyone trains in our style to the same standard, everyone who wants to grade grades together to the same standard, everyone who grades with us received the belt appropriate to their grading. Those that come into the club with another styles belt and no knowledge of ours starts as white belts. All we do is allow them to wear their previous belt, which as I keep saying everyone knows what it's for. We get our various stylists to demonstrate sometimes how what they did is different or indeed the same, we teach them the various ways different styles have of going into fighting stance, how different styles do a knife hand etc we also teach all of them Judo as our chief instructor is a Judoka as well, he's also Shotokan, Wado Ryu and TSD ( because he was military for over 25 years) We aim to educate them on martial arts, having different styles in is beneficial, sparring is always interesting because of the differences. When they are posted out we find a suitable club for them, hopefully they will know enough to be able to fit in a bit better. Do those clubs let them wear the belts they have earned with us, rarely but what they have hopefully learnt with us is that martial arts can be enjoyable whatever you do.

 

[WaterGal]

Tez - that sounds really nice what you're doing to help support these kids. Really, I think when we're talking about young kids who are color belts, some leeway should be given on this stuff for these kind of situations. It doesn't help anyone to be a hard*** to a 7-year old over whether or not you should recognize the yellow belt they got before they moved from another town.

The only thing I would be concerned about is whether you're requiring the kids to know the material expected at that rank (the one they got at the old place) by your school before letting them progress to the next rank, and it sounds like you are doing that.

 

[Tez3]

The only thing I would be concerned about is whether you're requiring the kids to know the material expected at that rank (the one they got at the old place) by your school before letting them progress to the next rank, and it sounds like you are doing that.

They don't keep the rank of their previous club, we let them wear their belt while learning the white belt material from ours, they grade at white belt level to the next, yellow, then they can wear the yellow belt of ours, though because of previous knowledge they will often got to orange stripe. The belt they wear when they come in designates their rank at the style they did before, everyone knows that as they are introduced as being that rank from that style. It is understood by everyone that they will start from scratch with our style, most times they progress quickly because of previous knowledge but if they have come from Judo for example they find a stand up style difficult but they understand their belt is from Judo ( they do better when it comes to Judo of course lol)

Btw we have one 11 year old who has five yes five white belts, he graded once somewhere else and got a red belt ( that styles first one), we didn't give him a sixth white belt but let him wear his red belt until he graded with us and gained a yellow with orange stripe, he's grade once more and has a green belt. he's posted out again in five weeks.

 

[WaterGal]

Hey, I'm trying to say I think you're doing a good job and already addressed the only concern I'd have. That seems like a good system.

We have a McDojo-y TSD school that's our competitor and we'll also let kids wear whatever the highest color belt they got from them, but then make them sit at that rank until they know all the forms, kicks, etc up through that belt level and have decent sparring skill. We do the same with people that came from other KKW TKD places that didn't leave the kids with good skills, too.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Trying to prove working and being part of the community of one base is tougher/harder/screwier/whateverier than another makes as much sense as trying to prove who's job is better, a British cop or a cop here in the US (or most any other country you care to name). There's a lot that's the same -- and some big differences, too. Not only that -- but the whole belt issue has moved pretty far astray of the topic at hand...

 

[Tez3]

[

Hey, I'm trying to say I think you're doing a good job and already addressed the only concern I'd have. That seems like a good system.

We have a McDojo-y TSD school that's our competitor and we'll also let kids wear whatever the highest color belt they got from them, but then make them sit at that rank until they know all the forms, kicks, etc up through that belt level and have decent sparring skill. We do the same with people that came from other KKW TKD places that didn't leave the kids with good skills, too.

I wasn't attacking you, sorry if it seemed like that, I'm still shocked that I should be attacked over such a small thing that we obviously aren't alone in doing.

jks, I'm not trying to prove anything, I was just trying to explain that we do a very small simple thing to make our kids feel more at home and it seems I'm doing something that is tremendously awful. If you look at all the things I'm being accused of, lying to the children is just one of them, of course the topic is going to go awry. I think an apology should be forthcoming but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Flatfish]

Hey, I'm trying to say I think you're doing a good job and already addressed the only concern I'd have. That seems like a good system.

We have a McDojo-y TSD school that's our competitor and we'll also let kids wear whatever the highest color belt they got from them, but then make them sit at that rank until they know all the forms, kicks, etc up through that belt level and have decent sparring skill. We do the same with people that came from other KKW TKD places that didn't leave the kids with good skills, too.

Our school does the same thing with students from other TKD schools as well.

 

[tshadowchaser]

And what if anything do the last couple of pages have to do with the OP?

 

[Tez3]

Well don't ask me, it seems I lie.
Someone made a comment about belts, I said it was what we do then I got attacked for lying, giving out belts for nothing and mollycoddling children and a whole lot more so it went to hell in a handcart. I'm finished with this thread.

 

[seasoned]

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