Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?

[Hanzou]

So in the context of 'fraudulent' what is wrong with either of these videos?
:asian:

In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.

The second video is just sloppy Kata. I find it ridiculous that belts at that level can't perform basic kicks and punches. However, while its clearly a McDojo, I don't think its fraudulent.

That staff kata was pretty funny though. Looked like she was twirling a baton at a parade.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The second video is just sloppy Kata.

I like the way they added a "hip throw" followed by a downward punch in the middle of their form. The instructor had "open mind" and that's for sure. I always like to give people credit if they have "open mind".

I hate people to say that

- this is against my style principle, or
- we don't do this in our styles.

That means they just put a physical limitation on themselves for no good reason. the word "cross training" is a NO NO to them.

I have tried to suggest WC guys to add "hip throw" into their forms without any luck. Since I'm a long fist guy, I don't mind to add "hip throw" into my long fist form. I think it's a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It will remind the future generation that there is another area that they will need to explore. Since the "hip throw" is the mother of all throws, to add "hip throw" into your form does make sense no matter what style that you may train.

 

[K-man]

There is nothing new about "fake styles" or "made up styles". If you read through Gichin Funakoshi's book, he mentions coming across schools in Japan with styles of karate that he had never heard of back on Okinawa.

My concern is with the "liars" that went to the MSU school of Martial Arts (Make stuff up). If someone wants to create their own art, fine. Either it will or won't stand the test of time after they are gone. All arts are "made up" at some point anyways. BUT, at least admit that what you are teaching is of your own creation and judge it on it's own merits. I don't even think that lineage is important at that point, because you are just name dropping other instructors/styles to make you seem more legitmate instead of letting your own creation stand on it's own merits.

I had never heard of Kyuki-do before this thread so I went to check it out. It's been around for 40+ years! it says that it is a combination of styles, it doesn't claim fantastic lineage. I also found a thread on Bullshido dissing it and one of their members who actually had his kids involved in Kyuki-do tried to defend it. That was about as effective as a one legged goat trying to defend itself against a pack of rabid dogs. Those guys didn't want to know anything that was good about the style. They knew already that it had to be crap!

In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.

The second video is just sloppy Kata. I find it ridiculous that belts at that level can't perform basic kicks and punches. However, while its clearly a McDojo, I don't think its fraudulent.

That staff kata was pretty funny though. Looked like she was twirling a baton at a parade.

Hmm. I'm under the impression that Hapkido is the Korean version of Aikido. The last time I practised sword in Aikido, last week in fact, we were performing the same techniques. If you have a major issue with Hapkido people using Japanese techniques then out the door goes all the rest of it too. I mean the bulk of TKD is based on Shotokan. Then Kyuki-do claims to have incorporated Judo into its training. Last time I looked that was of Japanese origin. Then, of course, a lot of schools have been criticised for ignoring grappling but when a school introduces Judo it it is not authentic because it is not Korean.

Now it's interesting that you call the school in the second video McDojo. The research that I did didn't indicate that at all so how is it clearly a McDojo?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My opinion, not to be seen as "Official".

In regard to Bullshido as a quality judge of what is true in the arts, I'd suggest checking better references. Having been personally attacked several times on there, having watched as MartialTalk was roasted repeatedly, having personally had to ban countless members of their site after a number of board invasions here, I find them less that reputable, and more "Angsty Teener". I've found few serious professional martial artists who hold them in high regard. While some of their "investigations" target actual frauds, often times they have been just pileons by trolls hiding behind the anonymity of the site. It's telling that in the 13 years I owned MartialTalk, we worked cooperatively with over 30 other martial arts communities including MAP, Deluxe, E-Budo and Budoseek. Bullshido was never on that list by their choice.

Regarding frauds, any idiot can send a check to some soke board and get a ring and a piece of paper. I have one myself, 31st dan soke of Kung-a-te. It's not worth the paper it's printed on.

Martial Talk's long had a policy forbiding "Hot Pursuits" (where a member would follow another around demanding answers to questions often disrupting unrelated threads), and rabid "Fraud Busting". A real investigation into a persons background and credentials requires time, money and expertise that few forums have on hand. I've had a number of people offer to send me "proof", be it videos, certificates, etc. My FMA background doesn't qualify me as an expert in the KMA. Seeing a cert means nothing to me as unless I was there, or can find people who were, validating it is, difficult. We've had the position that if a member wanted to ask questions or share concerns and research, as long as it didn't disrupt the normal operation of this site or put us at legal risk, it would be fine.

 

[K-man]

My opinion, not to be seen as "Official".

In regard to Bullshido as a quality judge of what is true in the arts, I'd suggest checking better references. Having been personally attacked several times on there, having watched as MartialTalk was roasted repeatedly, having personally had to ban countless members of their site after a number of board invasions here, I find them less that reputable, and more "Angsty Teener". I've found few serious professional martial artists who hold them in high regard. While some of their "investigations" target actual frauds, often times they have been just pileons by trolls hiding behind the anonymity of the site. It's telling that in the 13 years I owned MartialTalk, we worked cooperatively with over 30 other martial arts communities including MAP, Deluxe, E-Budo and Budoseek. Bullshido was never on that list by their choice.

Regarding frauds, any idiot can send a check to some soke board and get a ring and a piece of paper. I have one myself, 31st dan soke of Kung-a-te. It's not worth the paper it's printed on.

Martial Talk's long had a policy forbiding "Hot Pursuits" (where a member would follow another around demanding answers to questions often disrupting unrelated threads), and rabid "Fraud Busting". A real investigation into a persons background and credentials requires time, money and expertise that few forums have on hand. I've had a number of people offer to send me "proof", be it videos, certificates, etc. My FMA background doesn't qualify me as an expert in the KMA. Seeing a cert means nothing to me as unless I was there, or can find people who were, validating it is, difficult. We've had the position that if a member wanted to ask questions or share concerns and research, as long as it didn't disrupt the normal operation of this site or put us at legal risk, it would be fine.

I'm not using Bullshido as a source to reference. I was using it as an example of how bad it can be when people try to discredit a particular style or even a person. I ended up there via a reference to Kyuki-do. In this instance a parent and martial artist in his own right tried to explain that the training was actually good. Nobody wanted to listen to a positive statement, even though it was from a first hand source.


I was just interested in the comments posted about a style I had never seen before. The comment posted with the videos implied that it was a fraudulent style which I queried and so far there hasn't been a response from Marnetmar. The other comment was from Hanzou stating that it was clearly a McDojo. Now it may well be but I could find nothing to suggest that was the case either, hence my question.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.

i don't care if they're doing Japanese swordplay. It's a modern eclectic art and they can borrow from wherever they want to. Just about all of the Korean arts are derived from Japanese arts anyway.

I do have a problem with how badly the sword techniques were done, but that doesn't make it fraudulent. Fortunately, the practitioners will almost certainly never have to defend themselves against a sword in real life.

 

[K-man]

i don't care if they're doing Japanese swordplay. It's a modern eclectic art and they can borrow from wherever they want to. Just about all of the Korean arts are derived from Japanese arts anyway.

I do have a problem with how badly the sword techniques were done, but that doesn't make it fraudulent. Fortunately, the practitioners will almost certainly never have to defend themselves against a sword in real life.

I'm not sure what they were trying to achieve. Even as a demonstration of sword taking from a set position was less than ordinary, then it's easy for me to say that from the comfort of home. I'm not sure it's being taught to defend against a sword. More that, with a weapon techniques such as kote gaeshi are easier to explain and teach.

If these videos are meant to encourage people to sign up ... um, no!
:asian:

 

[Argus]

The same goes for Chinese food. There's that old joke, "In China, they just call it food." But the reality is that the typical Chinese family doesn't eat an eggroll or two, a bowl of Hot and Sour soup, Orange Chicken, Mongolian Beef, BBQ pork, fried rice and some cheap, black tea. But, anywhere in America, that's what you get in a "Chinese" restaurant.

It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.

I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).

 

[K-man]

It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.

I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).

Exactly what happened to Karate.
:asian:

 

[Steve]

It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.

I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).

LOL. I hear you. But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago. You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes. Crab cakes are an East Coast treat. Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook. Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).

It's about where you are in relation to what you want. In the same way, you shouldn't expect authentic Chinese food outside of China. It's not realistic. It's better, I think, to enjoy it for what it is.

Regarding the fraud busting thing, i just want to point out that voicing a negative opinion of a video or even of a style is not "fraud busting." We all have opinions, and sometimes, people here allege some pretty silly things. It's not much worth talking if we aren't being frank and honest about things. Where the videos are concerned, people have made their opinions very clearly known without style bashing or fraud busting.

 

[Buka]

While I find all of this entertaining, I can't help but wonder if we as martial artists should allow such places to exist. Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore. However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts? Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed? Conversely, should we live and let live, and hope that the students eventually find a legitimate style to train in?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Oh, if we only lived in a perfect world. Charlatans probably ain't going anywhere soon, they've been around a long time. Yes, it's frustrating, but what can ya' do? Other than warning off a friend about going to one......but as I think about it, I've never known a friend that would, there aren't a lot of options other than training as hard as we can and being thankful for what we got, a damn good dojo.

Although......the idea of The Karate Police is kind of intriguing. Maybe we could get really cool hats.

 

[Hanzou]

Hmm. I'm under the impression that Hapkido is the Korean version of Aikido. The last time I practised sword in Aikido, last week in fact, we were performing the same techniques. If you have a major issue with Hapkido people using Japanese techniques then out the door goes all the rest of it too. I mean the bulk of TKD is based on Shotokan. Then Kyuki-do claims to have incorporated Judo into its training. Last time I looked that was of Japanese origin. Then, of course, a lot of schools have been criticised for ignoring grappling but when a school introduces Judo it it is not authentic because it is not Korean.

Oh so Hapkido is now claiming that their locks come from Aikido? That's new. Traditionally they claimed that it came from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu.

Anyway, I have no problem with KMAs using JMA techniques. I just think rocking the traditional Japanese garb is a bit much. They should wear the typical KMA uniforms.

Now it's interesting that you call the school in the second video McDojo. The research that I did didn't indicate that at all so how is it clearly a McDojo?

Upper belts/ Black Belts doing sloppy techniques= McDojo.

 

[Argus]

LOL. I hear you. But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago. You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes. Crab cakes are an East Coast treat. Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook. Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).

It's about where you are in relation to what you want. In the same way, you shouldn't expect authentic Chinese food outside of China. It's not realistic. It's better, I think, to enjoy it for what it is.

Being from Louisiana, your Jambalaya example hits home. Still, I can't help but be disappointed when I try "Jambalaya" or "Gumbo" just a state away. Not many people do to well with it here in Mississippi. I'm just spoiled on the good stuff, I guess

I get your point, though, and you make a good one. It's always better to enjoy things for what they are. Or just seek out what your area is known for.

I still don't think I'll find myself grabbing a caramel macchiato before heading off to train Don-Jeetsoo-Reeyoo, and ending the day with sushi & hibachi, but maybe I'll opt for some BJJ and good Southern cooking

 

[K-man]

Oh so Hapkido is now claiming that their locks come from Aikido? That's new. Traditionally they claimed that it came from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu.

Anyway, I have no problem with KMAs using JMA techniques. I just think rocking the traditional Japanese garb is a bit much. They should wear the typical KMA uniforms.



Upper belts/ Black Belts doing sloppy techniques= McDojo.

Well the word is written with the same Chinese characters as Aikido, the numbered techniques are the same as Aikido and there is no evidence I am aware of that Choi studied under Sokaku despite the claim. Either way it is still Japanese origin.

So because they don't fit your idea of what they should be they are McDojo. Sorry, you have no idea of McDojo. I don't mind kata that is not perfect and it is not a grading requirement to be perfect. I much prefer a student to demonstrate an understanding of the kata. In fact for my guys that is the requirement. Perfect kata is for competition and means nothing to me.

 

[Marnetmar]

For the record, my main issue with the kyukido videos was grabbing your opponent's katana by the blade and then swinging them around with it.

 

[Hanzou]

So because they don't fit your idea of what they should be they are McDojo. Sorry, you have no idea of McDojo. I don't mind kata that is not perfect and it is not a grading requirement to be perfect. I much prefer a student to demonstrate an understanding of the kata. In fact for my guys that is the requirement. Perfect kata is for competition and means nothing to me.

Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.

 

[Argus]

Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.

I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou?

I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.

Sometimes, I have half the mind to enter a forms competition and just pick one small section to work on freely and repeatedly for 10 minutes without any pretense of performance

 

[jezr74]

I don't think it's not unusual for more experienced higher ranks to neglect basic and starter forms. It's human nature, and not restricted by occupation.

That's why I think it's good when higher ranks need to go back to basics in class to refresh. I'd see it as an oversight more than anything as compared to fraudulent, and the result is sloppy kata and embarrassment.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou?

I don't. :supcool:

I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.

Wushu has Karate beat in that department. Might as well be a gymnastics competition.

My main issue with that clip is the fact that they're upper ranks and just going through the motions. At black belt you really shouldn't be performing that badly in forms. The black belts are the standard bearers of your school.

 

[K-man]

For the record, my main issue with the kyukido videos was grabbing your opponent's katana by the blade and then swinging them around with it.

Agree 100% with that one. As I said earlier some terrible sword taking.
:asian: