question on being gullible

[Grenadier]

But most of us have never actually met each other or visited each other's schools, or matched skills against each other. Since "lousy" is a subjective term, I wonder how many of us would think that some of our fellows here on Martialtalk are lousy frauds if we did know each other personally.

A valid question, indeed. This is why I still hold to the belief that I will not get involved, unless the individual in question has done so much to give a black mark to the martial arts, that it's painfully evident without having visited his schools. If someone is making the martial arts look that bad within the community, other schools could very well suffer.

Are such incidences common? Not really, since most fraudulent folks are actually pretty good showmen that can fool enough of their students. Also, most martial arts folks are content to simply leave them be.

However, once in a while, you'll come across a very oddball individual, who just does some really outrageous things that don't need any further witnesses to corroborate.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=vale+tudo+fraud+rank+black&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt

Just look at the first two results that the search produces. Seeing the responses from the fraudulent teacher makes me shake my head in disbelief at times...

 

[evenflow1121]

Very well said Terry and you are absolutely right. Fraud Busting imo is a waste of time. I can tell you that most of the bb that I have ran into that recieved their rank in a year or in an amount of time similar to that, knew exactly what they were paying for, they just wanted the bb. Now my heart does go out to the few really naive people out there that truly dont know what they are getting into is utter crap, but a lot of the reasons that there is fraud at least in the martial arts, is because individuals are willing to buy into it while knowing exactly what they are buying into. I used to be an advocate of fraud busint that is until I was exposed to the other side of the coin. Both Terry and Andrew are correct, or well atleast I agree with them, its better to leave it alone, and most people do know exactly what they are getting into, if not right away in time it should become clear.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In conclusion if 70% of the world knows what is happening and don't care why should we brother with trying to console them on being doop in the first place, with a little reseach and a internet line we can find out enough info. to make a educated guess about everybody and everything we do in life.

The problem is that, while some people think that people in martial arts can stop bullets, dodge bullets, and bend knives on their skin, and a lot of other stuff as well.

The fruads perpetuate the unrealistic and fantastic of martial arts. So, while can do the research, and will do it. Others will do the same research and buy into the sales pitch. When you are taking little Johny to the local club most people look for little ninjas and other kids programs, but they also look at the number of stripes on the top instructors belt. The think this is what makes one legitimate. Some, look for certs. How many times have I asked someone who was trying to prove someone was a fraud, to show me the registry, evenin KMA where there is one. Most people do not where to look or where to ask, or what is a BS answer or what is the truth, even if they do the research.

I really think your 70% IF is way over the top about people knowing what is going on, and or caring. For many of the parents honestly care they just do not have the information to make a reasonable decision.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The only problem with that is when you're talking about a self-defense school. If people are going to be claiming to teach techniques that will aid people in dangerous situations, failing to give the people accurate information can be harmful. IMHO, the passing along of B.S., in the guise of S.D., is harmful. It's too bad those gyms cannot be liable for said subsequent effect of their sub-standard S.D. training. In the end, it's still fraud, fraud's illegal; MA fraud just goes unnoticed.

I agree with this and I agree that a school that is fraudulent should be held liable, but I also agree with Flying crane, some of the responsibility falls on the student.

Should the lion be able to eat the gazelle because he was able to catch it?

The lion has to eat the gazelle to survive and the gazelle isn't paying for training. Fraudulent humans are motivated by things other than survival instinct, generally their motivation is money.

If asked by someone going to a fraudulent school or thinking about going to a fraudulent school, I will tell them what I think. But I tend not to go around broadcasting my opinion to all about any school, good or bad.

 

[terryl965]

I would like to say thanks to everyone so far, my objection is to gather info. so I can put together abook on what to look for in selecting a school. the answer so far have given me some great in sight to what I should write and not write. the next question is how would everybody handle student that come from these types of school and how would you get them out of all of thes bad habits.

Thanks to all
Terry

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sometimes you can't. And sometimes they leave and go elsewhere.

I have talked to a few TDK teachers and they seem to get a lot of crossover students. The ones I talked either start the student from the beginning or make them test for the belt they claim to have.

My main style is Tai Chi and there are people who are willing to change and follow the Sifu and there are people who come with their own agenda that are not willing to follow the Sifu.

My Jujitsu teacher use to have sparing at the end of every class. Those with an agenda or those who chose to not listen found themselves facing him on the mat. None ever defeated him, not even the guy who had been in Golden gloves competition. He, by the way, faced the teacher on 3 separate occasions, he finally got the message, after he was told “next time I just ask you to leave”.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

A "fighter" (attitude, size, fitness, aggressiveness, experience) trained in a McDojo will probably beat anybody trained in the best style or school who isnt a "fighter". I think its the person thats most important then its the school. Just my opinion.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

...the next question is how would everybody handle student that come from these types of school and how would you get them out of all of thes bad habits.

Thanks to all
Terry

The trick is being patient. I know when I switched dojo's I had a lot of bad habits to unlearn. The sensei's were wonderful and patient and took the time explaining why what I was doing was inadequate and how I could raise my skills up to an acceptable standard. They never mocked my previous training, said great things about the good that I did get from it and we kind of just left the past in the past and got on with the work that needed to be done.

 

[evenflow1121]

You have to have patience with the student, bad habits can be corrected but he or she will probably have a more difficult time shifting away from them, than someone who enters a martial arts school for the first time in their lives. Doc in one of the forums here once said that there comes a point where a technique can no longer be shifted to accomodate an individual because you run the risk of making the technique ineffective, I believe that. Unfortunately, in a lot of these fraudulent schools, these students are taught techniques that fully accomodate to their liking, and it is very hard to get them to shift away from that.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

A "fighter" (attitude, size, fitness, aggressiveness, experience) trained in a McDojo will probably beat anybody trained in the best style or school who isnt a "fighter". I think its the person thats most important then its the school. Just my opinion.

What's a "fighter?" How can "fighter" be operationalized in terms of measurement? Fighter, I believe, deals more with personality than with ability--I think that's what you're suggesting, correct? A fighter is going to win more out of aggressive and intimidating behavior, in my opinion, than due to any skill-set.

Now, you pit a fighter up against a guy, passive or otherwise, who knows what he's doing, eventually--after one or two "WTF?" punches, the more experienced practitioner's instincts will kick in.

Also, be careful about using "McDojo" as a term. I kind of think of McDojo as the corporate-esque distribution of MA, as opposed to some low-quality, knock-off version. I kind of think Fairtex and Muay Thai, in general, are being McDojo'ed out, but that doesn't mean that what is being taught is, by any means, ineffective. Usually, quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[jdinca]

You have to have patience with the student, bad habits can be corrected but he or she will probably have a more difficult time shifting away from them, than someone who enters a martial arts school for the first time in their lives. Doc in one of the forums here once said that there comes a point where a technique can no longer be shifted to accomodate an individual because you run the risk of making the technique ineffective, I believe that. Unfortunately, in a lot of these fraudulent schools, these students are taught techniques that fully accomodate to their liking, and it is very hard to get them to shift away from that.

Amen! We get a number of transfers every year. Some of them are pretty good but many of them don't have what they should have, given their level of experience at the other school. Patience and positive reinforcement is key, especially if it's a young person.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

What's a "fighter?" How can "fighter" be operationalized in terms of measurement? Fighter, I believe, deals more with personality than with ability--I think that's what you're suggesting, correct? A fighter is going to win more out of aggressive and intimidating behavior, in my opinion, than due to any skill-set.

Now, you pit a fighter up against a guy, passive or otherwise, who knows what he's doing, eventually--after one or two "WTF?" punches, the more experienced practitioner's instincts will kick in.

Also, be careful about using "McDojo" as a term. I kind of think of McDojo as the corporate-esque distribution of MA, as opposed to some low-quality, knock-off version. I kind of think Fairtex and Muay Thai, in general, are being McDojo'ed out, but that doesn't mean that what is being taught is, by any means, ineffective. Usually, quite the opposite, in fact.

What Im saying is that there are some very nasty people out there that havent taken a second of MA training that can kick the *** of some high ranking black belts.