MA frauds

[tshadowchaser]

Having seen a complete fraud in my area promote his 14 years old son to fifth degree from first and on the same day see him promote two other to 3rd degree I have to say there is not really much can do about it except bite your lip and hope those promoted learn soon how they are lacking in martial knowledge and ability. When this instructor left town his two 3rd degree students tried to join a few other schools in the area and where told they could test for a mid level under black belt and if they passed they could wear that belt but there 3rd degree belt was a farce.
another fake instructor was in the area for a time and when he left his students also found out his history was false and most of what he taught them was from books and YouTube .
There is not much one can do except give your thoughts to those that ask. Going to the better business bureau is of no help because they are not in the business of fraud busting. Unless someone is seriously hurt in that school the police and district attorney will not look at the credentials or teaching going on.
The old days of closing down such schools by physical confrontation is long gone I'm afraid.

 

[Hanzou]

i wish i had an emoji of me slaping my forehead and shaking my head.
in the words of Dr, Evil....."you just dont get it ..do you scott (Hanzou)" the world dosent revolve around MMA and competition. your view of the world seems very skewed.

Where did I say that? I simply said that an art with a heavy focus on competition and sparring makes a system less susceptible to being utilized by frauds.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure what you mean by free-flow belts?

The Gracie University online belt system is controversial, but a few things should be noted:

1) GU students cannot be ranked past blue belt without in-person evaluation. Certainly no one will be getting a legit BJJ black belt online.
2) GU students who have been awarded rank through that system are listed online, so if someone was (for some reason) faking being a GU blue belt they would be easy to expose.
3) The standards for GU rank are publicly available. You might or might not agree with them, but there's no fraud involved. If someone has a GU blue belt you can say exactly what that means.

Bjj Eastern Europe – Guy Never Sparred & Receives Gracie University Blue Belt in Mail

Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

 

[Chris Parker]

that was easy...video number 2 is clearly the real deal. but your right the Jigen Ryu video looks like something that is fake but i think i have seen the style before so i am guessing its real but i am not a Koryu expert. the last video has me guessing as well. i see some Japanese art in it as well as some Chinese Chin-na but i dont see some tell tale signs of it being Chin-na, it just stands out to me as legit technique but as a "put together" system. thats my guess for what its worth ( not much).

And… did you want to have another go?

Video's 1, 2, and 5 were all legitimate. Videos 3 and 4 were not.

Video one is of Jigen Ryu, a system of swordsmanship from Satsuma famous for having little finesse, but producing incredibly fierce warriors. In that school, it is taught that there is no second strike, as your first one has already killed the other guy. They spend a lot of time working on striking drills, and develop power to the degree that enemy warriors on the battlefield would be found with the backs of their own swords driven back into their skulls from an attempt to block the incoming strikes.

Video two is of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, a very powerful system that includes many areas, including truly battlefield armour-based combat. The video in question is a specialised conditioning exercise known as mifuri (spinning the body), utilising basic movements of the art in rapid succession to develop strength, endurance, spirit, and to work on breathing and cardio conditioning.

Video five is Hideo Iwaki demonstrating the basic forms of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. In this system, there is a big distinction made between kihon form and application (oyo) form.

As to the other two, the third video is of "Junsei Ryu"… which is a system developed in the UK in the 90's in order to "preserve the traditional martial arts of Japan"… unfortunately, no-one involved in the creation actually had any experience in the traditional martial arts of Japan, or recognised the simple fact that they do still exist, and in order to preserve them, you train in them, not make up some imitation claiming to be the same thing. The particular form there (for naginata) is unlike anything seen in actual naginata systems… in simple terms, it's a low-grade imitation of Ryukyu (Okinawan) bojutsu kihon, applied with a naginata… and not well.

The fourth is an interesting case study… the Ogawa Ryu (alternatively identified as "Kaze no Ryu Ogawa-ha") was created in Brazil in the late 80's/early 90's… they've since also gotten a decent following in Europe, mostly in Spain. They basically copied (with slight alterations) a number of koryu videos and techniques, combining from rather disparate sources, and making up a number of other aspects to fill in the gaps. They came to notice in the 90's/early 2000's with the advent of the internet, however initially they weren't recognised as being fake… really, they're quite a good counterfeit. There were always questions, certain things didn't quite add up, but relatively unknown ryu-ha do turn up every now and then (Unkou Ryu being a relatively recent one… it's basically just a father and son these days)… and it wasn't until they started to show their version of the Tea Ceremony (Cha no Yu), with a claim about it's heritage that they were found out (largely due to a Koryu practitioner who is also a tea practitioner). Too many details were wrong for it to be legit… and everything unraveled at that point.

Even with this known, they still fool a large number of people, and I see videos of theirs put up in otherwise knowledgable groups asking for information on them (such as a Kyudo group recently where someone put it up as an example of kyujutsu [old, combative archery]). In the same way, people training in Junsei Ryu, or in my friends system, honestly believe they are training in authentic Japanese martial arts. They're not, of course… but it matches what they expect… leading to people not knowing which is real or not when videos are put up.

what i was making an attempt to do was to be polite and not have the thread go down the path where people make posts about busting down the doors and making challenges.

Yeah, sorry, I was asking in particular about the phrasing you used there… I wasn't sure if you were suggesting we don't take a physical course of action because (as martial artists) we train not to engage physically, or that we shouldn't engage despite the fact that we train to.

I have no problem with anyone getting good training. I'm not sure why anyone would make up a history, though.

There are a number of reasons… marketing… delusion… desire to be something "more" than they are…

As for fraudulent, by some definitions in this thread I teach and train in a fraudulent art. American Karate. It's all made up. Keeps changing, too. I'm just fine with that.

Eh, if it's American Karate, developed in America, then that's what it is. If it's American Karate, developed in America, but claiming to be purely Japanese, that's a case of fraud.

Actually it's the exact opposite, since Koryu have the double whammy of having old origins, and not being expected to have a strong sparring base. So you can you have frauds concocting phony lineages, and teaching their students BS while never having a mechanism in place to actually prove that they're legit.

Yeah… you really missed the point (and don't understand what "fraud" actually is, it seems). It's quite difficult to come up with a historical lineage that passes scrutiny… which makes it exceedingly difficult to "fake". Sparring, even performance, have absolutely nothing to do with that. It's precisely that old origins that makes it hard to fake… and "legit" doesn't mean what you think it does.

In other words, it's exactly the opposite of what you think it is. And I'd be careful about assuming you know what koryu actually are like… or what they contain and do. You might be surprised by some systems…

Having seen a complete fraud in my area promote his 14 years old son to fifth degree from first and on the same day see him promote two other to 3rd degree I have to say there is not really much can do about it except bite your lip and hope those promoted learn soon how they are lacking in martial knowledge and ability. When this instructor left town his two 3rd degree students tried to join a few other schools in the area and where told they could test for a mid level under black belt and if they passed they could wear that belt but there 3rd degree belt was a farce.

What makes you say that the instructor was a "complete fraud"? Nothing in your story suggests that… poor quality, sure. Lax standards, no issue. Nepotism, no question. But nothing suggests "fraud"… and that's the issue. "Fraud" is to do with credibility and honesty in regards to claims… not quality or living up to the desired standards of outsiders.

Now, I'm not saying he wasn't a fraud… I'm saying that having a poor quality school is not by any stretch evidence or proof positive of fraudulent action.

another fake instructor was in the area for a time and when he left his students also found out his history was false and most of what he taught them was from books and YouTube .

See, that's more like it.

There is not much one can do except give your thoughts to those that ask. Going to the better business bureau is of no help because they are not in the business of fraud busting. Unless someone is seriously hurt in that school the police and district attorney will not look at the credentials or teaching going on.
The old days of closing down such schools by physical confrontation is long gone I'm afraid.

Yep.

Realistically, the only thing we can do is to better educate ourselves, and any who come with questions. But those that don't ask, won't find out. And such schools will continue to thrive.

Where did I say that? I simply said that an art with a heavy focus on competition and sparring makes a system less susceptible to being utilized by frauds.

Which is precisely where you're on the wrong track. I mean… the system my friend teaches has a fair bit of sparring, and engages in competition fairly frequently. Still fake. In fact, it's precisely those elements that would have people think it's genuinely legitimate, whereas that's far from the case.

 

[hoshin1600]

The fourth is an interesting case study… the Ogawa Ryu (alternatively identified as "Kaze no Ryu Ogawa-ha") was created in Brazil in the late 80's/early 90's… they've since also gotten a decent following in Europe, mostly in Spain. They basically copied (with slight alterations) a number of koryu videos and techniques, combining from rather disparate sources, and making up a number of other aspects to fill in the gaps. They came to notice in the 90's/early 2000's with the advent of the internet, however initially they weren't recognised as being fake… really, they're quite a good counterfeit. There were always questions, certain things didn't quite add up,

so one thing i noticed in the Ogawa ryu clip that bothered me was the way the guy in the white hakama had it tied. so i am asking the experts does that look right, is that exceptable? i was taught different. ours had a nice bow in the front. it was very clean and neat. i know there are different ways, kyudo keeps the knots out of the way as example. the japanese tend to have a formal way to tie and fold everything the knots on this guys hakama just looked wrong to me.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A friend of mine teaches a particular system that he learnt from his father and godfather. His godfather is the founder of the system itself (in the UK in the 50's), and his father is the second head of the art. In simple terms, the art is a combination of basic judo nage-waza and katame waza, karate daken methods, some aikido kansetsu waza (none of these in a "complete" form) combined with weaponry systems that are, honestly, largely made up (with a visual basis in both Japanese and Ryukyu methodology)… but betraying a number of traits that show that they're not authentic in their origin. My friend believes (as he's been taught) that his godfather learnt a number of classical Japanese systems while briefly stationed there in the 40's and 50's… some of which he's named to me (and none of which have any evidence of any place in the methodology of his art at all)… and describes it as "classical Japanese martial arts… the art of the samurai… koden bujutsu (old transmission martial arts)". Sad to say, it's none of these things at all.

So… that's a fraudulent system. But does it mean that the practitioners don't have skills? Nope, not at all. They train diligently, and the school is very big and successful. The issue is the claims made… it's not traditional, it's not classical, it's not even Japanese (although it takes a lot from Japanese arts). My friend even goes to Japan each year to try to research the origins of his art, based on the stories he's been given… but always comes back with nothing but tenuous possibilities. He takes the opportunity while in Japan to train in authentic arts… but doesn't (or won't) make the connection to the lack of authenticity of his own art.

Here we start to get into the difference between a fraudulent individual (one who claims experience or credentials he doesn't have) and a fraudulent system.(one where the actual history is not what it is claimed to be). Your friend is not a fraud, but by your standards his system is fraudulent.

The thing is, I'm not sure that "fraudulent" is the best term for describing a system where the claimed history is inaccurate. Martial artists are not historians. Most martial artists (if they particular care about their art's history) generally accept whatever mish-mash of myths, half-truths, and bits of genuine history that get passed down from their teacher, their teacher's teacher, and so on. Whatever bits you consider the greatest sins against historical veracity may have originated as lies, legitimate misunderstandings, or advertising spin in the current generation, the previous generation, or a hundred years ago or longer.

Examples ...

When I was in college, I talked to an acquaintance who was a 3rd dan in TKD and who believed the myth about TKD being an ancient Korean art. (He told me that Karate was "bastardized Americanized Tae Kwon Do." ) He wasn't a liar, he just believed what his teacher had told him. Is Tae Kwon Do a fraudulent martial art because a false history was being spread that many practitioners believed?

When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught that Togakure Ryu is an 800-year old art and that Hatusmi was the historically documented 34th generation grandmaster. In fact, only 3 of the 9 disciplines taught in the Bujinkan can be verified as existing before Takamatsu and Togakure Ryu isn't one of them. However far back Togakure Ryu does go, it almost certainly isn't 800 years old. Are the Takamatsuden arts fraudulent?

In the early decades of BJJ, Helio Gracie claimed that his Jiu-Jitsu was the true art of the samurai and that Judo was just a watered down version of the art that the Japanese had created to fool westerners. Later on (after his brothers had passed away) he changed his tune and claimed that he had single-handedly created BJJ by watching the rudimentary Judo that Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving it so that a smaller individual like himself could defeat large opponents. Many schools still teach this second version of BJJ history, which isn't much more accurate than the first. Is BJJ a fraudulent art?

The commonly taught legend of Wing Chun's origin from Ng Mui and Yim Wing-Chun is probably not true. Does that mean Wing Chun is a fraudulent art?

Those of us who are not Shintoist are unlikely to believe the claim that the secrets of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu were originally given to Choi-sai by Futsunushi no kami. Is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu a fraudulent martial art?

I think it's sufficient to note the places where the claimed history of an art diverge from what is known or what is likely and reserve "fraud" for the individuals who are knowingly attempting to deceive.

 

[Sapphire]

Beat up his students of course. Either that or send him flowers.

 

[Chris Parker]

so one thing i noticed in the Ogawa ryu clip that bothered me was the way the guy in the white hakama had it tied. so i am asking the experts does that look right, is that exceptable? i was taught different. ours had a nice bow in the front. it was very clean and neat. i know there are different ways, kyudo keeps the knots out of the way as example. the japanese tend to have a formal way to tie and fold everything the knots on this guys hakama just looked wrong to me.

Sorry, which hakama are you referring to? In the Ogawa Ryu clip, both the male and female practitioner are wearing indigo hakama… the only clip where white pants are worn is in the Asayama Ichiden Ryu one (video number 5)… and that's not hakama.

For the record, the dress-sense that raises eyebrows in the Ogawa Ryu clip is the use of tatsuke with keikogi… although the momohiki method shown by the gent is… unusual, to say the least.

Here we start to get into the difference between a fraudulent individual (one who claims experience or credentials he doesn't have) and a fraudulent system.(one where the actual history is not what it is claimed to be). Your friend is not a fraud, but by your standards his system is fraudulent.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly the way I'd put it. I'd probably be tempted to label his godfather (the founder of the system in the UK) as a fraud… but my friend (and, to a fair degree, his father) are more victims of a lack of education, or being taken in by false claims and not being informed enough to recognise the lies.

The thing is, I'm not sure that "fraudulent" is the best term for describing a system where the claimed history is inaccurate.

I will agree that it's not always the correct term… the times it will be appropriate, in my mind, are when it's a deliberate, knowing act. This is why I'd describe my friend's system as fraudulent, but not him… he genuinely believes even the rather obviously false ideas present… such as the usage of "warrior animals and colours" given to each dan-ranked member… which is supposed to be a callback to the usage of such identifying ideas with clan loyalties… except, of course, there is nothing in Japanese history to support such a weird idea.

Martial artists are not historians.

That will depend on the martial artist in question… for example, Koryu practitioners tend to be far more than any other… as the history, lineage, and so on is a major aspect of the study. And, if we're still using my friends system as an example, that's precisely what he believes it to be (or, at the very least, directly related to them).

Most martial artists (if they particular care about their art's history) generally accept whatever mish-mash of myths, half-truths, and bits of genuine history that get passed down from their teacher, their teacher's teacher, and so on.

Again, it'll depend on the art. Honestly, if the martial artist genuinely does have a real interest in their history, they will look far beyond whatever stories they get given… and, again, in Koryu terms it's very common for people to do a lot of independent research into their schools lineage and history, separate from any stories of the school itself, or as a way to see the truth behind the poetry, so to speak.

Whatever bits you consider the greatest sins against historical veracity may have originated as lies, legitimate misunderstandings, or advertising spin in the current generation, the previous generation, or a hundred years ago or longer.

Yep, true.

Examples ...

When I was in college, I talked to an acquaintance who was a 3rd dan in TKD and who believed the myth about TKD being an ancient Korean art. (He told me that Karate was "bastardized Americanized Tae Kwon Do." ) He wasn't a liar, he just believed what his teacher had told him. Is Tae Kwon Do a fraudulent martial art because a false history was being spread that many practitioners believe.

This is where it starts to get very grey… no, I wouldn't consider TKD a "fraudulent" art… but I would consider such claims to be fraudulent.

When I was in the Bujinkan, I was taught that Togakure Ryu is an 800-year old art and that Hatusmi was the historically documented 34th generation grandmaster. In fact, only 3 of the 9 disciplines taught in the Bujinkan can be verified as existing before Takamatsu and Togakure Ryu isn't one of them. However far back Togakure Ryu does go, it almost certainly isn't 800 years old. Are the Takamatsuden arts fraudulent?

Ah, Togakure Ryu… here's a case of an unsubstantiated claim being made (one that is, honestly, highly likely to be, at the very least, greatly embellished and exaggerated). I have my personal beliefs of where it comes from, and have seen certain documents claiming to be evidence prior to Takamatsu, but when all's said and done, I'd absolutely agree that it's not the 800 years old that it's claimed to be. I'd also cast serious doubt on the claims of the history of Gyokko Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Kukishin Ryu for that matter… but we'll take a look at how certain cultural considerations can play into things in a bit.

I will say that one out of the 9 having doubts on it's historical veracity doesn't quite equal the entire Takamatsuden being labeled fraudulent (honestly, there's a huge can of worms on many fronts there)… but can agree that a case might be well made for Togakure Ryu on a number of levels. I might also ask just how much Togakure Ryu was actually being taught at the time, of course…

In the early decades of BJJ, Helio Gracie claimed that his Jiu-Jitsu was the true art of the samurai and that Judo was just a watered down version of the art that the Japanese had created to fool westerners.

Ha! That's adorable! And yes, I'd have major issues with any claim that BJJ is "the true art of the samurai". Again, though, a false (fraudulent) claim within the art

Later on (after his brothers had passed away) he changed his tune and claimed that he had single-handedly created BJJ by watching the rudimentary Judo that Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving it so that a smaller individual like himself could defeat large opponents. Many schools still teach this second version of BJJ history, which isn't much more accurate than the first. Is BJJ a fraudulent art?

Again, a distinction between a fraudulent claim and a fraudulent art is found here.

The commonly taught legend of Wing Chun's origin from Ng Mui and Yim Wing-Chun is probably not true. Does that mean Wing Chun is a fraudulent art?

No… but I'll deal with why more in the next example.

Those of us who are not Shintoist are unlikely to believe the claim that the secrets of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu were originally given to Choi-sai by Futsunushi no kami. Is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu a fraudulent martial art?

There is a real danger in looking at arts from a different culture… one of which is to take things on face value, when that's far from the intended. This is the case with Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Wing Chun, and potentially at least, some of the Takamatsuden traditions, as well as many, many others.

To take the Shinto Ryu story… Iizasa Choisai was an experienced warrior, a veteran of battle and war, skilled with a spear and sword, who had come to near the end of his career. In his journeys with his entourage, he came to the Katori Shrine… where he stopped for a time to train and meditate on the experiences of his life. During this time, he was vitiated in a dream by the God of the shrine, Futsunushi no Kami, who presented him with a scroll detailing the secrets of all martial arts… which became the basis of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu.

Now, if we take this as literal, it's obviously not a realistic story. Choisai received a scroll in a dream (in most versions, he woke up holding the scroll)… but is it meant to be literal? I don't think so. What's it really saying? Well… it tells me that, after many years of experience and warfare, Iizasa Choisai was in a position unusual for someone of his occupation… old age. He'd managed to gather quite a number of followers and retainers… who looked to him for guidance and instruction. When arriving at Katori Shrine, he took it upon himself to dedicate himself to gaining a greater understanding based on everything he'd experienced so far… and, I believe, had what is often referred to as a "Eureka" moment… a sudden revelation of a training methodology, an insight of how to formulate a single system that taught everything a warrior would need to know. And he worked on that methodology, eventually writing it all down in a scroll to formalise the lessons. But where did this revelation come from? Well… it came from Choisai himself… as he meditated in this Shinto Shrine… focusing his thoughts towards the guardian deity, Futsunushi no Kami. As a result, is it surprising that such a revelation, such a new understanding would be taken as a divine inspiration? Especially in the mid-15th Century?

These stories aren't literal, any more than the Bible is literal. They're allegorical… and, as such, are as true and any actual historically verified event or location. And they are not what makes a system fraudulent… as they are an expression of a truth, not a deliberate misdirection and denial of the truth (such as the claim that TKD is 2,000 years old).

I think it's sufficient to note the places where the claimed history of an art diverge from what is known or what is likely and reserve "fraud" for the individuals who are knowingly attempting to deceive.

Honestly, I think we need at least one more category. I think we can divide the issue of fraud in martial arts into the following:
- Fraudulent person: someone who has presented false credentials, claimed aspects of their history and training, or of their art, which are deliberately and demonstrably false.
- Fraudulent system: a system which is designed specifically to mislead, or to portray itself as something that it's not.

Note that a fraudulent person might be teaching a legit art (or, at least claiming to be… say, someone who had taken a couple of years of TKD creating their own school and claiming to be a 10th Dan master with 30 years experience), or a fraudulent system itself (the same TKD instructor who re-styles themselves as the only practitioner of the super-secret samurai art of Dim Mak Tai Chi Jutsu)… and that a fraudulent system, particularly if it's past it's first generation, might well be taught by people not fraudulent by nature, but simply teaching as they've been taught (both my friend and Junsei Ryu on the previous page are examples of this).

When it comes to places where the claimed history of an art diverges from historically verified reality, that's honestly not enough to label a system as fraud… depending on what and why the claims were made in the first place. One way to look at it is to examine internal consistency… these fraudulent systems simply lack it (again, Junsei Ryu claiming to be a preservation of traditional Samurai martial arts, but using Okinawan basics for Japanese weaponry, my friends system doing much the same, as well as having a range of telltale signs in the "Japanese" aspects that betray the actual origins, and so on).

When it comes to examples such as the TKD stories, here you have a case of a legit system having fraudulent claims (primarily for propaganda purposes). Same with the various BJJ history versions. But these arts maintain an internal consistency… which is a hallmark of a legitimate system. The fake systems don't have that.

For example, these are all the same system… one which claims to be tied to traditional Japanese arts, and is focused on preserving those traditions:

When inquiring about the weapon work, I was told that "obviously there's some Shinto (Muso) Ryu there…" For the record, this is Shinto Muso Ryu:

… so… no.

It should also be noted that these are hardly the greatest offenders that I've seen from that system… but they should be enough to make my point. I should also note that just because a system is modern, and eclectic, doesn't in and of itself make it fraudulent. Elder's system of Miyama Ryu, for instance, is a modern, Western take on Japanese arts… but there is no claim to be anything other than what it is. The systems that it is derived from are all documented, as is the training time and experience of the founder… no fraudulent claims of being an old samurai methodology are found.

Fraud is a very difficult thing to get a handle on… in some cases, certain aspects are fraud, but the overall approach or system isn't. Or an individual within a system might be (or, at least, claiming to be within a system)… or you might have very genuine people who further poor information and incorrect understandings or expressions. While not their fault at all, it doesn't remove the damage done… to once again take my friends system, as noted, the students train hard and diligently… my friend is a dedicated and sincere teacher and practitioner… but what is being taught is incorrect and based in gross misunderstandings of Japanese martial arts and history. Which would lead to a new generation of martial practitioners who have a lot of false beliefs… which, no matter how far from the origin of the art (the founder in the UK) we get, is never going to be correct, accurate, or anything other than false.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with a lot of your analysis, Chris, but I'll play Devil's advocate for a bit ...

I will agree that it's not always the correct term… the times it will be appropriate, in my mind, are when it's a deliberate, knowing act.

After a few generations, though, it becomes hard to determine intent. Was the bogus history passed down by the founder a deliberate lie or just an uneducated misunderstanding?

This is where it starts to get very grey… no, I wouldn't consider TKD a "fraudulent" art… but I would consider such claims to be fraudulent.

Agreed.

And yes, I'd have major issues with any claim that BJJ is "the true art of the samurai". Again, though, a false (fraudulent) claim within the art

Agreed. Although if Helio's original story was still the dominant history being presented to the public I wonder if you would be a little harsher in judging it a fraudulent art.

When it comes to examples such as the TKD stories, here you have a case of a legit system having fraudulent claims (primarily for propaganda purposes). Same with the various BJJ history versions. But these arts maintain an internal consistency… which is a hallmark of a legitimate system. The fake systems don't have that.

Hmm ... back when I took TKD (33-34 years ago) I saw 3 major components:

Forms (from Shotokan, although I didn't know it at the time) - lots of stepping through low, wide stances using punches, knife hands, and hard-style blocks.

Sparring - bouncy, bouncy, high stances and high kicks.

"Self-defense" - escapes and joint locks against grabs while standing in a natural stance.

The three components used completely different body dynamics and implied tactical assumptions.

Maybe I went to a bad TKD school and maybe the art has evolved in the decades since, but at that time I wasn't seeing a lot of internal consistency.

Honestly, I think "internal consistency" is probably a better marker of a good system than of a historically non-fraudulent system. I've seen newer systems created with and without good internal consistency, regardless of whether the claimed history was accurate.

Now, if we take this as literal, it's obviously not a realistic story. Choisai received a scroll in a dream (in most versions, he woke up holding the scroll)… but is it meant to be literal? I don't think so. What's it really saying? Well… it tells me that, after many years of experience and warfare, Iizasa Choisai was in a position unusual for someone of his occupation… old age. He'd managed to gather quite a number of followers and retainers… who looked to him for guidance and instruction. When arriving at Katori Shrine, he took it upon himself to dedicate himself to gaining a greater understanding based on everything he'd experienced so far… and, I believe, had what is often referred to as a "Eureka" moment… a sudden revelation of a training methodology, an insight of how to formulate a single system that taught everything a warrior would need to know. And he worked on that methodology, eventually writing it all down in a scroll to formalise the lessons. But where did this revelation come from? Well… it came from Choisai himself… as he meditated in this Shinto Shrine… focusing his thoughts towards the guardian deity, Futsunushi no Kami. As a result, is it surprising that such a revelation, such a new understanding would be taken as a divine inspiration? Especially in the mid-15th Century?

These stories aren't literal, any more than the Bible is literal. They're allegorical…

The thing is, there are still plenty of people who do take everything in the Bible completely literally, even in this day and age. (Well .. they claim to, although many seem to be rather selective in which parts they read.) Given that, are we certain that 15th century students of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu all took the origin story as allegorical and didn't believe that Choisai had an actual scroll from the kami? Beats me. Perhaps an historian of the period might have a better idea.

With regards to the Wing Chun origin story, I've encountered plenty of people who take the myth as historical fact. Were early-20th century Chinese students of the art more likely to regard the story as allegory? I have no idea.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For example, these are all the same system… one which claims to be tied to traditional Japanese arts, and is focused on preserving those traditions:







When inquiring about the weapon work, I was told that "obviously there's some Shinto (Muso) Ryu there…"

Just got around to watching the "tanto kata." Oh ... my. Do these people think that is an actual traditional kata or just that it has something to do with traditional Japanese knife usage? (Obviously, they're deluded either way. Even I can tell that, despite it being outside my bailiwick.)

 

[Chris Parker]

I agree with a lot of your analysis, Chris, but I'll play Devil's advocate for a bit …

Ha, cool.

After a few generations, though, it becomes hard to determine intent. Was the bogus history passed down by the founder a deliberate lie or just an uneducated misunderstanding?

Is there a difference?

Once a system goes beyond it's first generation, it becomes the same anyway… my friend's system is a good case in point. His godfather knew that he was making much of it up… coming up with stories of where certain parts came from… deliberately giving fraudulent stories and claims… however, my friends father and my friend himself are simply following the way they were taught… which makes it an uneducated misunderstanding on their part. But that doesn't make the claims any less fraudulent/false… it only changes the intent behind presenting them. But the reason for the fraud in the first place remains the same… to deliberately confuse and mislead. The biggest difference is not even why the claims are being repeated… as, when you get to that point, you're really just dealing with victims of the fraud themselves. Of course, should said victims become aware of the reality, and continue to present a fraudulent claim… that's where we get back to deliberate misleading.

Agreed.

Cool.

Agreed. Although if Helio's original story was still the dominant history being presented to the public I wonder if you would be a little harsher in judging it a fraudulent art.

Perhaps… well, quite likely, actually… the phrase "Basically Just Judo" might get thrown around with a little more vigour, at least...

Hmm ... back when I took TKD (33-34 years ago) I saw 3 major components:

Forms (from Shotokan, although I didn't know it at the time) - lots of stepping through low, wide stances using punches, knife hands, and hard-style blocks.

Sparring - bouncy, bouncy, high stances and high kicks.

"Self-defense" - escapes and joint locks against grabs while standing in a natural stance.

The three components used completely different body dynamics and implied tactical assumptions.

Maybe I went to a bad TKD school and maybe the art has evolved in the decades since, but at that time I wasn't seeing a lot of internal consistency.

Hmm… while I can't speak for your experience, or the school you attended, I will say that I can see nothing there that absolutely denies internal consistency… outward appearances can sometimes be rather misleading themselves… I mean… if you saw our "street" material, and our "traditional" material, you would probably think you're looking at two completely different things… but, from my perspective, all that changes is the context and cultural "dressings"… which is what I see in the descriptions you provide.

Honestly, I think "internal consistency" is probably a better marker of a good system than of a historically non-fraudulent system. I've seen newer systems created with and without good internal consistency, regardless of whether the claimed history was accurate.

The reason I say that a lack of internal consistency is a good indication of a "fake" system is that they are often an attempt to match an internal belief or imaginings of what they're trying to be… without really understanding what they're trying to be in reality. In other words, it's when you get someone making up sword methods because they think they should have them (and think they know what they're like, based on imagination only), then combine that with karate, because obviously karate is the only striking system of the samurai, plus aikido (which is only joint locks, obviously), because the samurai all used that… plus ground work, because obviously all samurai did jiujitsu… then add in some other bizarre weapons, because samurai…

The thing is, there are still plenty of people who do take everything in the Bible completely literally, even in this day and age. (Well .. they claim to, although many seem to be rather selective in which parts they read.)

I know… and, obviously, I have my own views on that… but to avoid upsetting some here, I won't voice them. I'm sure you can figure out what they are, though, my friend...

Given that, are we certain that 15th century students of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu all took the origin story as allegorical and didn't believe that Choisai had an actual scroll from the kami? Beats me. Perhaps an historian of the period might have a better idea.

Honestly, I don't know that that matters either (I will point out that such stories were regarded with as much skepticism as they would be today… Musashi wrote warning about believing stories of schools being founded by the gods, or their influence… he was pretty much directly referencing Shinto Ryu there, by the way…). To take it back to a Biblical concept, for those that believe that the Bible is the transmitted Word of God, but also believe that that Word is far more allegorical than historically accurate, filled with lessons and moral guidance for a life lived well and in service of others, does it matter if others have believed that the Word is exact and literal? After all, in a way, by recognising that the story is allegorical you are affirming it's intrinsic truth at it's heart…

Is Shinto Ryu divinely inspired? According to the founder, yes. Does that mean that the literal way that inspiration is described is true (in a cold, hard, factual sense)? No… but it's not meant to be. Is the Bible the Transmitted Word of God? To a Christian, yes. Does that mean that everything in it is literal and true (in a cold, hard, factual sense)? No… but it's not meant to be.

With regards to the Wing Chun origin story, I've encountered plenty of people who take the myth as historical fact. Were early-20th century Chinese students of the art more likely to regard the story as allegory? I have no idea.

Again, that'd be a question for them.

Just got around to watching the "tanto kata." Oh ... my. Do these people think that is an actual traditional kata or just that it has something to do with traditional Japanese knife usage? (Obviously, they're deluded either way. Even I can tell that, despite it being outside my bailiwick.)

I'll address this more in my PM to you, but, no, they don't think it's a traditional kata… but they do believe that it's based in actual, traditional tanto-jutsu learnt in Japan and Okinawa… if you go to the you-tube link, you'll see the explanation in the comments.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm… while I can't speak for your experience, or the school you attended, I will say that I can see nothing there that absolutely denies internal consistency… outward appearances can sometimes be rather misleading themselves… I mean… if you saw our "street" material, and our "traditional" material, you would probably think you're looking at two completely different things… but, from my perspective, all that changes is the context and cultural "dressings"… which is what I see in the descriptions you provide.

I would suspect that your "traditional" and your "street" material use the same (or at least congruent) underlying body mechanics though, even if the details of application are different. do they not?

 

[pgsmith]

Makes me think of what I was told by an older Japanese gentleman quite a number of years ago. It was after training and we were at the bar drinking (standard procedure in Japan back then ) and I was lamenting all of those people making up their own arts and selling them to unsuspecting folks. When I asked if it bothered him that they were labeling this stuff Japanese budo, even though it had no real connection with Japan, this is what he told me ... "That is not my problem, that is my great-grandchildren's problem. If the art that these people have invented is worthy, it will survive and grow, and my great-grandchildren will have to check into it to see if it is worth training in. If it is a poor art, they will not have to worry about it because it will no longer exist. Either way, it isn't my problem so I refuse to worry about it."

 

[Chris Parker]

I would suspect that your "traditional" and your "street" material use the same (or at least congruent) underlying body mechanics though, even if the details of application are different. do they not?

Yes, they do… but (from the outside… or even the inside, until you get a much better understanding of them) it's hard to see that. If you think of something like Seigan no Kamae (Koto Ryu… testing your memory, there, mate!), and do a side-by-side comparison with Geoff Thompson's "fence"… to us, they're the same thing in many ways… but physically, they look very different. Tactically, though…

Makes me think of what I was told by an older Japanese gentleman quite a number of years ago. It was after training and we were at the bar drinking (standard procedure in Japan back then ) and I was lamenting all of those people making up their own arts and selling them to unsuspecting folks. When I asked if it bothered him that they were labeling this stuff Japanese budo, even though it had no real connection with Japan, this is what he told me ... "That is not my problem, that is my great-grandchildren's problem. If the art that these people have invented is worthy, it will survive and grow, and my great-grandchildren will have to check into it to see if it is worth training in. If it is a poor art, they will not have to worry about it because it will no longer exist. Either way, it isn't my problem so I refuse to worry about it."

Yeah… and I get the attitude. My feeling is that that's fine for someone who has chosen what they're doing, and knows what they're doing… my concern is (as you said) "selling them to unsuspecting folks"… as well as furthering bad (false) information. This is where we get people arguing against the actual reality, as they've been taught something that's not correct… and, in todays world, it's easier than ever before to be influential with that bad information. You can do you-tube videos… self-publish books (or, it seems, get actual publishing houses to print anything if you can put yourself across as knowledgable… looking at you, Antony Cummins…)… present yourself as an "expert"… and have all of this accepted. That's really what concerns me.

 

[Danny T]

...and is why I use the term 'legend' when speaking to the supposed histories of the arts I am involved in. I wasn't there and neither were my instructors during their developments. All were developed over several years, decades even. All have gone through numerous changes within their development and some continue to do so. (especially those open to today's weapon changes and tactics)

 

[Chris Parker]

I typically phrase things as "According to this system/ryu, their history is…."

 

[lklawson]

my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?

What would I do? Don't you mean, "what have you done?" Because, frankly, anyone who's studied martial arts for more than a few years has seen what you're talking about.

I've seen variations of it several times. You know what I've done?

Nothing.

Yup. What I did. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

I don't know about you, but I live in a Free Market system (more or less). If the guy is selling a product to his customers that they desire then, by all means, let them buy it. If the students later on find out that they can't actually fight, then they can leave and go some where else. Maybe the product he's selling isn't actual skill at fighting but, "self confidence, discipline, mutual understanding, respect, fitness, tradition" and all the other mule-muffins that the martial arts community as a whole uses to promote the awesomeness of martial arts training. See, you don't actually have to be able to fight, or have ANY reputable martial skills whatsoever to be able to sell (and sometimes deliver) those things.

And what if the guy doesn't have a "legitimate" lineage? Does anyone actually believe the story of Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Chun to solve her lovers triangle? A better question would be "can the instructor actually teach the students how to fight?" That's way more important than what supposed "lineage" is.

I, personally, like the old Western method. If you could teach your students how to successfully fight, you're school flourished. If you were a successful fighter, either as a duelist or as a military man, your instruction was in demand. Having the right teacher could pad your resume a little bit but you had to be able to fight, and if you fought well no one gave a fat fiddler's fart if you didn't have a respectable lineage, or any lineage at all! One famous and successful Master of Fencing claimed that he learned the very basics from his Village's instructor then honed his art in multiple successive military campaigns, and then gained the final polish by working security at his wife's whore-house. That's his "lineage?" Bouncer at a whore-house? Yeah, but he knows how to FIGHT, KILL, and WIN and can teach.

So what do I do when I see people teaching B.S.? Nothing. If someone comes to me and specifically asks my opinion of said instructor's skills or the quality of the martial art in question, I'll tell them honestly. But I'm not going to go out of my way to "do" anything about it. I have more productive things to do. ...like trimming my nose-hair or something.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Martial artists are not historians.

That will depend on the martial artist in question… for example, Koryu practitioners tend to be far more than any other… as the history, lineage, and so on is a major aspect of the study.

*cough*HEMA*cough*...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

*cough*HEMA*cough*...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Okay, okay. Most martial artists are not historians.

 

[Chris Parker]

*cough*HEMA*cough*...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ha, yes, that would be another good example…