Liu He Ba Fa

[Xue Sheng]

Since I am tall and young, I was always told to practice Long Fist, White Crane style Kung Fu. going back to topic

I am too learning about Liu he ba fa. It sounds pretty good according answers.com , but can't let everything sound good to me

From what I am finding out Liu he ba fa is hard to find. Its not even easy to find a book on the subject.

I know of a school in New York that teaches Tibetan White Crane, but they go under the name Lama Pai. I have never met the instructors so I can't vouch for them, but I know they are there. I believe one instructor's name is David Ross, can't remember the others. I know they have a website, you'll probably find it if you poke around a bit.

Flying Crane would know better than I, but I am reading a book by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming about White Crane that seems fairly good.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng

Have a look at www.shenwu.com/discus/messages.

there is some more information about Liu Ho Pa Fa and Khan Foxx talks about reproducing his book if there is enough interest.


Best wishes

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng

Should have said that the discussion on Liu Ho Pa Fa comes under the "Martial Arts - Miscellaneous" heading. There are lots of links to Liu Ho Pa Fa offered as well.

Best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng

Should have said that the discussion on Liu Ho Pa Fa comes under the "Martial Arts - Miscellaneous" heading. There are lots of links to Liu Ho Pa Fa offered as well.

Best wishes

Thank You, I will check it out.

 

[dmax999]

I used to know this form. From my understanding it is earlier then BaGua, XingYi, and TaiChi. It is closer to Tai Chi then the other two. It is an internal art, but is more common then you probably think. Not many teach it in America, but there are many that practice it. Many that I have seen who practice it also practice O-Mei Kung Fu, but I have no idea if there is any connection.

As for finding a teacher, good news and bad news... Taoist Tai Chi Society teaches it in Canada via seminars. Many local branches will also teach it from them as well. The reason TTCS Tai Chi looks so bad is that their creator was better at LHBF and turned his Tai Chi to look like LHBF. He wanted to teach LHBF, but found it too difficult to teach most westerners, so he modified Yang Tai Chi to be closer to LHBF. The "advanced" students there move to LHBF.

It is more difficult then Yang Tai Chi. It is also performed mostly slow, and when done correctly should be very low stances. Not knowing much about Chen Tai Chi, I would say it is closest to that from what I have seen of Chen.

Any specific questions about it?

 

[East Winds]

The Liu He Ba Fa taught by the Taoist Tai Chi Society is (with the best will in the world) a bit of a joke! Liu He Ba Fa is a beautiful (some would say the ultimate) IMA. The founder of the TTCS (Moy Lin Shin) expressley forbade any mention of martial aspects in the society and therefore he emasculated not only Yang Taijiquan but also Liu He Ba Fa. Steer welll clear of this lot if you truly wish to research LHPF.

Best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

I used to know this form. From my understanding it is earlier then BaGua, XingYi, and TaiChi. It is closer to Tai Chi then the other two. It is an internal art, but is more common then you probably think. Not many teach it in America, but there are many that practice it. Many that I have seen who practice it also practice O-Mei Kung Fu, but I have no idea if there is any connection.

As for finding a teacher, good news and bad news... Taoist Tai Chi Society teaches it in Canada via seminars. Many local branches will also teach it from them as well. The reason TTCS Tai Chi looks so bad is that their creator was better at LHBF and turned his Tai Chi to look like LHBF. He wanted to teach LHBF, but found it too difficult to teach most westerners, so he modified Yang Tai Chi to be closer to LHBF. The "advanced" students there move to LHBF.

It is more difficult then Yang Tai Chi. It is also performed mostly slow, and when done correctly should be very low stances. Not knowing much about Chen Tai Chi, I would say it is closest to that from what I have seen of Chen.

Any specific questions about it?

Thank You, but I am not really looking for a teacher at this point, I am just looking for information. I am an internal CMA guy and I realized I knew little about Liu He Ba Fa.

However I am suppose to go to China in a couple of months and I have been recently told, meet with a Taoist about CMA. I will also be looking for Xingyi, since I use to do Xingyi and I will start formal training again in a couple weeks. And since I am trying to find out about Liu He Ba Fa I will look for it as well to see what it looks like there.

As to the age of Liu He Ba Fa, I am not certain when it was actually called Liu He Ba Fa. However I am fairly certain that the original CMA that it came form is older than at least Bagua.

This is what I have so far as to origin

Liu He Ba Fa proponents say that it contains form and principle elements from the arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. Each of these art forms are believed by some schools to share principles extending back to various precursor disciplines, Tao Yin, for one example.

Thanks

 

[Flying Crane]

I had never heard of this, or at least not in the context of it being a fourth internal art, but something has caught my eye. The Cantonese Lok Hop Ba Fa. My sifu has taught me a set called Lok Hop Kuen, and he says he knows a Broadsword and a Spear set from the same system, but that is all he knows of this. I believe he learned it from Sifu Wong, Jack Man of the Ching Wu association in San Francisco. Now that I think about it, I think I remember him referring to it as more "internal", at least more so than most people realize. Perhaps it is from the system you are referring to. I shall have to ask him about it.

Stylistically, it has many similarities to Tibetan White Crane technique (which is why he taught it to me since I am most interested in this art), but the Tibetan crane is entirely different from the Fujian crane. Technique is entirely different, different history, totally separate arts.

OK, I had a chance to ask my sifu about this. Lok Hop Kuen that he taught me is Six Harmonies Lost Track style, and is not what you are asking about, so I was mistaken. He says that it is sort of external/internal mix, but is a whole different method.

He was familiar with LHBF, but has not had any experience training it. He believes it is somewhat newer as a system, looks somewhat like tai chi in that it is slow and relaxed and meditative, but the physical technique is quite different and unique. Sorry, but that's about all I got right now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, I had a chance to ask my sifu about this. Lok Hop Kuen that he taught me is Six Harmonies Lost Track style, and is not what you are asking about, so I was mistaken. He says that it is sort of external/internal mix, but is a whole different method.

He was familiar with LHBF, but has not had any experience training it. He believes it is somewhat newer as a system, looks somewhat like tai chi in that it is slow and relaxed and meditative, but the physical technique is quite different and unique. Sorry, but that's about all I got right now.

That's great thanks for the info; your Sifu actually gave you a lot of information on the style. "relaxed and meditative, but the physical technique is quite different and unique"

I am going to look for it when I'm in China just to see what it looks like.

Thanks

On an unrelated note, I just found out that there are Xingyi and Bagua forms in San Da/San Shou….at least in the police version.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's great thanks for the info; your Sifu actually gave you a lot of information on the style. "relaxed and meditative, but the physical technique is quite different and unique"

I am going to look for it when I'm in China just to see what it looks like.

Thanks

On an unrelated note, I just found out that there are Xingyi and Bagua forms in San Da/San Shou….at least in the police version.

yeah, I tried to pin him down a little with regard to the description of the technique: "what do you mean, sifu? The technique is different as in more like longfist, or something still like like tai chi?"

response: "hmmm... it's just different, but not like longfist, but not like tai chi. tai chi has certain movements that define it and are common in one variation or another from one style to the next, but the all have it. But this one doesn't. It's just different."

I guess that's him using Verbal Tai Chi. He just pivots and rolls and my questions sort of slide off him sometimes...

 

[Xue Sheng]

yeah, I tried to pin him down a little with regard to the description of the technique: "what do you mean, sifu? The technique is different as in more like longfist, or something still like like tai chi?"

response: "hmmm... it's just different, but not like longfist, but not like tai chi. tai chi has certain movements that define it and are common in one variation or another from one style to the next, but the all have it. But this one doesn't. It's just different."

I guess that's him using Verbal Tai Chi. He just pivots and rolls and my questions sort of slide off him sometimes...

I know the feeling; I have received similar responses from my tai chi teacher in the past. I guess it is just the nature of the beast.

I have been checking some of the other suggestions, I have not yet checked them all but I am working on it. Some lead to other places to check.

I will be in China in a less than 2 months and if I find out anything more when I'm there I will post it here.

I appreciate you taking the time to check with your Sifu

Thanks.
T

 

[Xue Sheng]

I used to know this form. From my understanding it is earlier then BaGua, XingYi, and TaiChi. It is closer to Tai Chi then the other two. It is an internal art, but is more common then you probably think. Not many teach it in America, but there are many that practice it. Many that I have seen who practice it also practice O-Mei Kung Fu, but I have no idea if there is any connection.

As for finding a teacher, good news and bad news... Taoist Tai Chi Society teaches it in Canada via seminars. Many local branches will also teach it from them as well. The reason TTCS Tai Chi looks so bad is that their creator was better at LHBF and turned his Tai Chi to look like LHBF. He wanted to teach LHBF, but found it too difficult to teach most westerners, so he modified Yang Tai Chi to be closer to LHBF. The "advanced" students there move to LHBF.

It is more difficult then Yang Tai Chi. It is also performed mostly slow, and when done correctly should be very low stances. Not knowing much about Chen Tai Chi, I would say it is closest to that from what I have seen of Chen.

Any specific questions about it?

From what I am reading it appears to have some Qin na, in the Dragon and Tiger Fighting form. Do they teach these forms at the Taoist Tai Chi Society?

 

[Flying Crane]

I know the feeling; I have received similar responses from my tai chi teacher in the past. I guess it is just the nature of the beast.

I have been checking some of the other suggestions, I have not yet checked them all but I am working on it. Some lead to other places to check.

I will be in China in a less than 2 months and if I find out anything more when I'm there I will post it here.

I appreciate you taking the time to check with your Sifu

Thanks.
T

I think he also referred to it as "water boxing". That might be a lead to check.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is what I have so far.

As suggested by TaiChiTJ I went here; Wai Lun Choi's Chinese Internal Arts

http://www.liuhopafa.com/

I found this so far:
Apparently there is a simplified wushu version not to be confused with the real thing

Liu Ho Pa Fa System
The complete system consists of six hand forms, The Twelve Animal form, Eight Linking Palms, Six Harmonies Eight Methods Fist, Dragon and Tiger Fighting, Coiled Dragon Fist and Coiled Dragon Swimming.

The Twelve Animal forms are a set of twelve short forms that build the necessary foundation need to practice the remaining forms. Each set was developed in characteristics associated with each animal. These forms develop the basic body movement and proper breathing necessary to complete the more complex techniques found in the remaining forms.
The main form (Six Harmonies Eight methods Fist) contains some seven hundred different techniques alone. It is in essence contain all of the movements of the other forms, but in for instance in the Dragon and Tiger Fighting form, contain a more in dept extrapolation of the chin na skills found in the main form.

And here: Mike Patterson’s site (I had been here before looking a Xingyi and never noticed the Liu he ba fa)

This is the “long form” of the Six Harmony; Eight Methods style. This is a strikingly beautiful and intricate form. It combines the thirteen postures of Tai Chi, the Eight Palms of Pa Kua, and the Twelve Animals and Five Elements of Hsing I, all rolled into one long 137 posture, 512 technique form. Performed at a pace as if practicing Yang style Tai Chi, this set ambles through some impressive combinations from the three classic Internal Families.

Some videos too: http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html
The part of the form he does looks very Tai Chi, but the applications demo looks Tai Chi and little Xingyi with Qin Na. I have to say, I feel sorry for the Demonstrate-ee, especially for the last application demonstration.

I also went to Tim Cartmell's site per suggestion of East Wind and found a link to Kann's site, http://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com/id13.html
He gives lessons in Thailand…and I doubt I could convince my wife that we need to go to Thailand..just to find out more
But I think I will look for a book when I am in China

Thanks for all the help, I am still looking and what I find I will post here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think he also referred to it as "water boxing". That might be a lead to check.

I have come across that before, I will have to look into it in greater depth. It may also be the terminology for the alleged original Taoist form that it supposedly came from.

I will look into it more
Thanks

 

[Flying Crane]

And here: Mike Patterson’s site (I had been here before looking a Xingyi and never noticed the Liu he ba fa)

This is the “long form” of the Six Harmony; Eight Methods style. This is a strikingly beautiful and intricate form. It combines the thirteen postures of Tai Chi, the Eight Palms of Pa Kua, and the Twelve Animals and Five Elements of Hsing I, all rolled into one long 137 posture, 512 technique form. Performed at a pace as if practicing Yang style Tai Chi, this set ambles through some impressive combinations from the three classic Internal Families.

If this is an accurate description, do you think this qualifies as a fourth internal style, rather than just a hybrid style?

 

[Xue Sheng]

If this is an accurate description, do you think this qualifies as a fourth internal style, rather than just a hybrid style?

If it is accurate I would be leaning more towards a hybrid style of the internal styles.

But I am really not sure what to make of it at this point, but if this is true then it is certainly does not appear to be a unique style, I will have to see it before I am certain.

But there are some very good styles that pop up out of a combination of other styles as I found out just yesterday; San Shou has Xingi and Bagua in it.

 

[Flying Crane]

But there are some very good styles that pop up out of a combination of other styles as I found out just yesterday; San Shou has Xingi and Bagua in it.

very true. the label can be a bit misleading, that's all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

very true. the label can be a bit misleading, that's all.

That is true, labels can be very missleading.

I thought about this late last night as far as internal styles go.

Sun Lu Tang (1861 - 1933) was a master of Xingyi and he studied Bagua, possibly also considered a master of Bagua as well. He also studies Wu/Hao Style Tai Chi, Sun was considered a very good martial artist.

He went on to developed Sun Style Tai Chi, which is recognized by the Chinese government as the 5th Tai Chi family.

I have only seen the Sun Short form done in person, but I have seen clips Sun style forms that appear to have Xingyi and Bagua elements.

So I suppose based on this Liu He Ba Fa could be considered the 4th internal style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

More Liu He Ba Fa Sites,

Waterboxing
Liu He Ba Fa
http://www.waterboxing.com/
Directory of Six Harmonies & Eight Methods (Liu He Ba Fa) Masters
http://www.geocities.com/zibocekungfubox1/68box
Liu He Ba Fa
http://www.liuhebafa.ca/

Liang Shou-Yu also teaches Liu He Ba Fa.
http://www.shouyuliang.com/classes/liuhe.shtml