Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue Sheng said:
But Sun's style is considered a style of Tai Chi, not a new style of Internal Martial Art.
Liu He Ba Fa
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
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But Sun's style is considered a style of Tai Chi, not a new style of Internal Martial Art.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Flying Crane said:
This is true, so my late night realization is a bust. I HAVE to stop thinking late at night.
However I have been online so much today looking a Liu He Ba Fa stuff my eyes are burning, so I am not going to write much right now, but I have found a lot today. And I have printed a lot today and I am going to read it and try and condense it down to a couple of paragraphs and post it.
I will add a couple of things.
I have seen a few references that say it is seen as the highest form of internal kung fu.
Also it is a long internal form consisting of elements from Xingyi, Bagua and Tai Chi
From Xingyi - 5 elements and 12 animals
From Bagua - the 8 main palm variations
From Tai Chi - the 13 postures.
It appears to be much older than I originally thought, but has been changed to include the other 3 internal styles to fill in the gaps. I will explain more of that later.
It is supposedly not a mere amalgam of forms, it's most distinctive trait is a smooth flowing character. Hence the name water boxing (flows like water)
Is very likely, originally, from a Taoist. Possibly the same Taoist that came up with the Tai Chi Ruler.
And at one point a master of Liu He Ba Fa made the statement that there were only 2 and a half martial artists left in China. Half was a Crane stylist the other 2 were Xingyi. Apparently these were the only 3 people he did not defeat with great ease, possibly a draw.
That is just a little of what I read today and I am going to try and condense it into a couple paragraphs....ok maybe 6 paragraphs.
But since my eyes feel like they are vibrating, I think I will stop now. :erg:
CrushingFist
Blue Belt
I found this today on Mancuso's Plum Publication site. It is a series of vcd's from the mainland that teach the Liu He Pa Fa style.
Xue Sheng, if you go out to the Plum Publications home page, then click on "Weblog", this is the page where Shifu Mancuso discusses new vcd's they are selling. Mancuso mentions this new series, and makes a few tactful comments about it, saying its history is quite colorful and so forth.
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd4/coll_LHBF1.htm
Xue Sheng, if you go out to the Plum Publications home page, then click on "Weblog", this is the page where Shifu Mancuso discusses new vcd's they are selling. Mancuso mentions this new series, and makes a few tactful comments about it, saying its history is quite colorful and so forth.
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd4/coll_LHBF1.htm
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have been reading a lot about Liu He Ba Fa and I am still reading.
I have found something that explains why what Gaoguy saw looked nothing like Bagua.
There are different styles of Liu He Ba Fa. Some look more like Xingyi, Some look more like Bagua, some are stronger in Tai Chi and yet others look absolutely nothing like any of them.
As for the origin, I agree with what TaiChiTJ found, the history is quite colorful and I will add difficult to figure out what is true and what is not.
But then again I know at least 4 Tai Chi origin stories, 3 go to Zhang, San-Feng and 1 goes to the Chen family. So this is not surprising.
Thanks for all the help. Once I figure out all this stuff I will try and post a summary.
I have found something that explains why what Gaoguy saw looked nothing like Bagua.
There are different styles of Liu He Ba Fa. Some look more like Xingyi, Some look more like Bagua, some are stronger in Tai Chi and yet others look absolutely nothing like any of them.
As for the origin, I agree with what TaiChiTJ found, the history is quite colorful and I will add difficult to figure out what is true and what is not.
But then again I know at least 4 Tai Chi origin stories, 3 go to Zhang, San-Feng and 1 goes to the Chen family. So this is not surprising.
Thanks for all the help. Once I figure out all this stuff I will try and post a summary.
Is anyone still interested in Liu He Ba Fa or is this thread dead?
As a former assistant instructor in Liu He Ba Fa, I don't know much about the history and the master-tree for the style, but I do know about the style itself.
When people doing Liu He Ba Fa says it has elements of Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi, they do not mean that LHBF was created by taking parts from them. All they are saying is that a few movements in LHBF resemble the idea behind a few movements in the other three styles.
There are a few forms of Liu He Ba Fa that survive today:
The beginner's form: Jook Gei (Cantonese pronunciation) which literally means initiation form or something like that - it has two unequal halves to it that are sometimes treated as separate forms for teaching purposes; the advanced form: Tsik Long which means Straight Dragon; the twelve animals; and one called Long Fu Tsin which means Dragon Tiger Battle.
The first half of Jook Gei is a lot like Taiji in that there's not much body translation. The second half of Jook Gei is a lot like Bagua - it's more mobile and some parts uses evasive footwork like in Bagua. The Straight Dragon form is like Xingyi. It goes up and down in a straight line. That is practiced slow like Taiji, but is very explosive when used. The Twelve Animals are separate short forms that are used for training for actual combat (but that is not too say the other forms are not: the other forms can be more deadly than the twelve animal short forms).
I have no idea what Dragon Tiger Battle is like. I've heard of it and apparently some people teaches it. My teacher's teacher did not teach it because he thought it was an unnecessary form: there are no original movements which cannot be learnt from practicing Jook Gei and Straight Dragon.
LHBF is supposed to be consistent with Daoist philosophy. No extremities, only what's natural for the body. Therefore, there are no wide stances. The low stances all have the legs close together in the same way that some Bagua stances have the legs close together.
There should also be no flowery movements at all in keeping with Daoist philosophy. Modern Taiji and ultra modern LHBF unfortunately suffers from unnecessary undulations in the body and hands which have no use at all. Daoist martial arts are supposed to be internal. So the intention should be in the mind and not expressed in the form explicitly. When it's all in the mind, the intention comes out in the form by itself such that it is only noticeable by equally and higher skilled practitioners. Such expression is proper. Highly visible expression is not.
As for other styles having the Liu He name:
There is a style of Praying Mantis called Liu He Praying Mantis. There are no doubt other Liu He styles.
That does not point to any relation between the LHBF style and the others. The concept of Liu He is a very important Daoist concept. So all it points to is that many people are trying to adapt Daoist concepts into other martial arts.
To avoid confusion, the actual name of LHBF is Xin Yi Liu He Ba Fa. Xin Yi means something like "intention of the heart".
There are other people who have mistakenly appended the names of the forms into the LHBF name like Xin Yi Liu He Ba Fa San Pan Shi Er Sai or something like that. The last five words are actually the official name of the twelve animal forms and not the name of the style.
As a former assistant instructor in Liu He Ba Fa, I don't know much about the history and the master-tree for the style, but I do know about the style itself.
When people doing Liu He Ba Fa says it has elements of Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi, they do not mean that LHBF was created by taking parts from them. All they are saying is that a few movements in LHBF resemble the idea behind a few movements in the other three styles.
There are a few forms of Liu He Ba Fa that survive today:
The beginner's form: Jook Gei (Cantonese pronunciation) which literally means initiation form or something like that - it has two unequal halves to it that are sometimes treated as separate forms for teaching purposes; the advanced form: Tsik Long which means Straight Dragon; the twelve animals; and one called Long Fu Tsin which means Dragon Tiger Battle.
The first half of Jook Gei is a lot like Taiji in that there's not much body translation. The second half of Jook Gei is a lot like Bagua - it's more mobile and some parts uses evasive footwork like in Bagua. The Straight Dragon form is like Xingyi. It goes up and down in a straight line. That is practiced slow like Taiji, but is very explosive when used. The Twelve Animals are separate short forms that are used for training for actual combat (but that is not too say the other forms are not: the other forms can be more deadly than the twelve animal short forms).
I have no idea what Dragon Tiger Battle is like. I've heard of it and apparently some people teaches it. My teacher's teacher did not teach it because he thought it was an unnecessary form: there are no original movements which cannot be learnt from practicing Jook Gei and Straight Dragon.
LHBF is supposed to be consistent with Daoist philosophy. No extremities, only what's natural for the body. Therefore, there are no wide stances. The low stances all have the legs close together in the same way that some Bagua stances have the legs close together.
There should also be no flowery movements at all in keeping with Daoist philosophy. Modern Taiji and ultra modern LHBF unfortunately suffers from unnecessary undulations in the body and hands which have no use at all. Daoist martial arts are supposed to be internal. So the intention should be in the mind and not expressed in the form explicitly. When it's all in the mind, the intention comes out in the form by itself such that it is only noticeable by equally and higher skilled practitioners. Such expression is proper. Highly visible expression is not.
As for other styles having the Liu He name:
There is a style of Praying Mantis called Liu He Praying Mantis. There are no doubt other Liu He styles.
That does not point to any relation between the LHBF style and the others. The concept of Liu He is a very important Daoist concept. So all it points to is that many people are trying to adapt Daoist concepts into other martial arts.
To avoid confusion, the actual name of LHBF is Xin Yi Liu He Ba Fa. Xin Yi means something like "intention of the heart".
There are other people who have mistakenly appended the names of the forms into the LHBF name like Xin Yi Liu He Ba Fa San Pan Shi Er Sai or something like that. The last five words are actually the official name of the twelve animal forms and not the name of the style.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
oxy said:
Thank You, I have been doing research on Liu He Ba Fa. I am intrigued by what appears to be a bit of a hazy origin, but that is not all that surprising in CMA.
I wish you the best if you do decide to teach. Liu He Ba Fa is rare and good teachers are needed.
Definate post more information if you have any... this is an interesting discussion.
BTW, do any of you know the Choi in the Chicago area whose website is http://www.liuhopafa.com? What were your impressions of him?
BTW, do any of you know the Choi in the Chicago area whose website is http://www.liuhopafa.com? What were your impressions of him?
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I am not questioning Sedaburg or Insanto; I know nothing about Sedarburg and only slightly more about Insanto.
But Lama Pai, from what I have been researching, is more closely related to Tibetan White Crane, and Hop Gar. And has little relation to Liu He Ba Fa. But I could have missed something in my research and since the history is somewhat difficult to trace I suppose it could be.
Liu He Ba Fa is related to Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua. Different forms of Liu He Ba Fa have different amounts of those 3. Example one could have more of a Tai Chi feel where another has less of a Tai Chi feel. Bagua could be very prevalent in one style and hardly noticeable in another.
But Lama Pai, from what I have been researching, is more closely related to Tibetan White Crane, and Hop Gar. And has little relation to Liu He Ba Fa. But I could have missed something in my research and since the history is somewhat difficult to trace I suppose it could be.
Liu He Ba Fa is related to Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua. Different forms of Liu He Ba Fa have different amounts of those 3. Example one could have more of a Tai Chi feel where another has less of a Tai Chi feel. Bagua could be very prevalent in one style and hardly noticeable in another.
Most Liu He Ba Fa practitioners started learning when they were already proficient in other forms of martial arts. In Hong Kong, it has a rare reputation as a "master's kung fu" because only masters of some martial art even hear of it. Choi knew a lot of martial arts like Lama before he began learning from Chan Yik Yan.
All of my classmates and I had to learn four forms of Seven Star Praying Mantis with a combat emphasis before we could go on to Liu He Ba Fa. Despite the differences, SSPM is a very good martial art to transition into Liu He Ba Fa (is a very good martial in its own right if you practice it properly).
Of all the videos I have seen of Liu He Ba Fa, Choi is the only one who even comes close to resembling Chan Yik Yan and Wu Yi Hui in their photos. I've also got his Twelve Animals VCDs and he teaches just like how I was taught (if you give some leeway to the fact that you only get like 6 hours of video only).
Here's the tip:
If you are looking to learn Liu He Ba Fa, learn your style very well, but be prepared to forget it.
The best thing is, once you learn Liu He Ba Fa, learning other styles becomes a whole lot easier, and you can even tell when people from other styles are not doing theirs properly (though, due to common courtesy, it's best not to point that out to them).
Liu He Ba Fa gives you many benefits besides the health and self defence aspects. Believe it or not, I did not understand maths at all until I started learning (again) in Year 10. For some reason, practicing LHBF helped me understand analytical geometry, calculus and statistics.
All of my classmates and I had to learn four forms of Seven Star Praying Mantis with a combat emphasis before we could go on to Liu He Ba Fa. Despite the differences, SSPM is a very good martial art to transition into Liu He Ba Fa (is a very good martial in its own right if you practice it properly).
Of all the videos I have seen of Liu He Ba Fa, Choi is the only one who even comes close to resembling Chan Yik Yan and Wu Yi Hui in their photos. I've also got his Twelve Animals VCDs and he teaches just like how I was taught (if you give some leeway to the fact that you only get like 6 hours of video only).
Here's the tip:
If you are looking to learn Liu He Ba Fa, learn your style very well, but be prepared to forget it.
The best thing is, once you learn Liu He Ba Fa, learning other styles becomes a whole lot easier, and you can even tell when people from other styles are not doing theirs properly (though, due to common courtesy, it's best not to point that out to them).
Liu He Ba Fa gives you many benefits besides the health and self defence aspects. Believe it or not, I did not understand maths at all until I started learning (again) in Year 10. For some reason, practicing LHBF helped me understand analytical geometry, calculus and statistics.
I found a new video on Youtube - there are actually three liu he ba fa videos now.
- this one has Choi, the head of the system according to his website, performing the second half of their main form. Choi seems to be highly regarded on the internet, but I am not particularly impressed with the clip. Then again, I'm not an expert in what I should be looking for.
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East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Rook,
I agree with your assessment of Choi. His footwork is extremely sloppy!!!! I'm not impressed by this performance.
Very best wishes
I agree with your assessment of Choi. His footwork is extremely sloppy!!!! I'm not impressed by this performance.
Very best wishes
I actually have bought his VCDs that has him demonstrating and teaching a class the twelve animal forms of LHBF. His footwork is much better there. There is a clip of Choi Wai Lun doing Xingyi. There doesn't seem to be much wrong with his footwork.
I myself do not understand why he performs the second half of the LHBF main form so differently (in terms of "spirit") than his twelve animal forms. However, I would like to know what criteria and such that would cause someone to evaluate his footwork as sloppy and what "sloppy" is defined as.
LHBF has slightly different philosophies than other martial arts. Given that, every LHBF video I have seen out there on the net is appalling. Especially the competition-wushu-fied and the Taiji-fied versions out there. But then, if I were to release our own videos everyone else would say the same thing (ie, that our way of doing the pattern is not the True Way(tm) ). But then, Choi Wai Lun's forms are the most closest to the photos of Chan Yik Yan and Wu Yi Hui in the books they wrote.
I myself do not understand why he performs the second half of the LHBF main form so differently (in terms of "spirit") than his twelve animal forms. However, I would like to know what criteria and such that would cause someone to evaluate his footwork as sloppy and what "sloppy" is defined as.
LHBF has slightly different philosophies than other martial arts. Given that, every LHBF video I have seen out there on the net is appalling. Especially the competition-wushu-fied and the Taiji-fied versions out there. But then, if I were to release our own videos everyone else would say the same thing (ie, that our way of doing the pattern is not the True Way(tm) ). But then, Choi Wai Lun's forms are the most closest to the photos of Chan Yik Yan and Wu Yi Hui in the books they wrote.
If you get a chance, post some of the video of your movement. I have been looking at the ones on youtube and they vary greatly in apparent quality. However, liu he ba fa's movement seems particularly interesting to me and I like the way it seems to combine multiple methods of power generation. It would be more apparent if I saw higher quality practitioners in action.
