Can Kenpoists achieve "Mushin" aka the state of "mind of no mind"?

[Michael Billings]

Since the introduction of message boards, I have seen kenpo topics analyzed and over-analyzed until finally, the "paralysis of analysis" stage is reached.

So, yes, kenpoists can achieve a state of no mind. :btg:

You are implying we HAVE a mind to start with ... not always an accurate statement

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

An interesting implication of the tradition of no-mind is not so much the simple act of getting out of ones own way, as much as silencing the mental chatter of the lower mind, and surrendering the control of the physical form to the Spirit. That is to say, in the state of mushin, the fighter ceases to be concerned with the interplays and consequences of actions or activity, and surrenders to the Soul, which then pilots the body like a puppeteer working a marionette (sp?).

While the easy way out is to re-define mushin as a culturally-specific conceptualization of "flow", or optimal states of performance mentality, a question of equal import would be to ask 'How many Kenpoists believe in the notion of a Spiritual Self, apart from and in addition to the daily Self, that could step in and drive the car for you if your were able to get out of it's way? While in the witness-self mode associated with no-mind/spirit-mind, who do you believe is driving the bus?'

Having moved in to (or been moved in to) this state on a couple occasions, I've come to believe the metaphysical component of the idea: That our daily mind is a smaller side of the iceberg of Self, or Mind, and that the larger part is capable of directly interfacing with the command and control centers of the body and mind, to push us to levels of performance not accessible in unaltered states. Not scientific, but what the heck...even Einstein pondered that there was more to creation than meets the eye.

Is there room in scientific kenpo for mystic models of mind? If the mystics are right, and the psychoneurologists wrong, is there room for mushin (spirit-moved mind) in the kenpo of Western Christian practitioners (since many on this board have professed in other threads to having such leanings)?

Just curious,

Dave

 

[Mekugi]

AHHH yes...Zen and all it's trappings.


Until you have performed zazen, none of you will ever truly know Mushin the "way it is supposed to be".
That is to say, you have to sit on a cushion on the floor in a tiny, overheated room, have an Abbot monk walk around behind you and smack you with a piece of wood suddenly and without due cause "as a blessing" or "to keep you focused". Meanwhile your legs falling asleep and because that stupid Abbot is sneaking up behind and thwapping you, there is no way to catch a nap. Just as you start to relax, "WHAP" there is that stupid Abbot again with his little board. You end up clenching your teeth and thinking "I Nevermind....I don't mind...it's ok...don't think about it" to keep from standing up and beating the monk to death with his own piece of thin pine. Then, as a "thanks" you have the ability to give them a donation for the blessed event, which empties out your wallet- another state of zen I suppose. NoYen-Noflow I think they call it. Now this is the most important part of mushin, because you have to act as if you "no-mind" what just happened.
:whip:
Anyway, my wooden nickle. I think I would much rather take a nap to sharpen up my senses.

 

[Michael Billings]

7 years of meditating Za-Zen before I figured out TM was much easier on my knees, back, and just as "settling", that is, allowing the thoughts to come and allow them to go without criticism (harder than you think ... especially when you are not "supposed" to be thinking), now I am really getting confused. Not a bad state to start from.

-Michael

 

[mj-hi-yah]

AHHH yes...Zen and all it's trappings.


Until you have performed zazen, none of you will ever truly know Mushin the "way it is supposed to be".

That is to say, you have to sit on a cushion on the floor in a tiny, overheated room, have an Abbot monk walk around behind you and smack you with a piece of wood suddenly and without due cause "as a blessing" or "to keep you focused". Meanwhile your legs falling asleep and because that stupid Abbot is sneaking up behind and thwapping you, there is no way to catch a nap. Just as you start to relax, "WHAP" there is that stupid Abbot again with his little board. You end up clenching your teeth and thinking "I Nevermind....I don't mind...it's ok...don't think about it" to keep from standing up and beating the monk to death with his own piece of thin pine. Then, as a "thanks" you have the ability to give them a donation for the blessed event, which empties out your wallet- another state of zen I suppose. NoYen-Noflow I think they call it. Now this is the most important part of mushin, because you have to act as if you "no-mind" what just happened.

Anyway, my wooden nickle. I think I would much rather take a nap to sharpen up my senses.

I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!

 

[Mekugi]

I'm glad I am not the only one.

I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!

 

[Kenpomachine]

Well, I know I have achieved this state at least twice: first time while playing chess in school, second time while performing a form in a championship.

Both times were different, as the first time it was as I felt into a trance, and only went out of it when the match ended. Second time was... well, I don't know how to describe it, I was so focused in the form that I could continue doing it even though I messed it all up. And then, I just realized that I didn't know which form I was doing. I sometimes think what would have come up if I haven't got out of the no-mind state in the middle of the form

 

[Rainman]

I was at a gathering tonight and a husband and wife were discussing this. The husband is very devoted to this aspect of his training and the wife, who'd also experienced this like you, said, "I'd rather take a nap!!!" LOL :uhyeah: Thanks for your description. If he asks me to try it, I think I'll opt out!

If you want real power I would not opt out of it. It is the purest part of all martial arts not just American Kenpo.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I'm glad I am not the only one.

No you are not alone. I see you live in Japan. This couple I was telling you about they lived there for five years also and began this practice there, but continue it here. After hearing their discussion I gather that it is something that is for the strong willed. The wife described it as "horrible" to me. You sit on your knees for many hours and your legs throb, but you can not move. When you do you get hit! These people study Aikido. Zen is a part of their training. There are specific breathing exercises and sitting zazen is encouraged, but not required. I have not myself ever heard of Kenpo stylists practicing zazen. Had I not met this couple I wouldn't even have known it was a modern practice. If I tried this, I think I would have to work up to it.

If you want real power I would not opt out of it. It is the purest part of all martial arts not just American Kenpo.

In Kenpo I think there have been a couple of times where I have felt a "no mind" state of being. These have been during times of stress usually in sparring or during "blind attacks" where you are attacked and must react without hesitation or thought. The preparation for this state of being has been many many hours of consistent practice and sometimes intense training. I can not, at this point achieve this state of being at will. I have not yet used meditation to try and enhance my unconscious awareness, but I am interested in trying some form of it. I'm just not sure that a whole day of sitting zazen is right for me. Have you ever sat zazen? If so, how did you find it? If not, what do you do to achieve a state of "no mind"?

MJ :asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I have not yet used meditation to try and enhance my unconscious awareness, but I am interested in trying some form of it. I'm just not sure that a whole day of sitting zazen is right for me. Have you ever sat zazen? If so, how did you find it? If not, what do you do to achieve a state of "no mind"?

MJ :asian:

One of my favorite meditations is a form of self-inquiry. Near as I can tell, it was positied by Ramana Maharsi to folks like Yogananda and Brunton, and consists mainly of turning the attention inward, and asking, "Who am I, really?".

Ideas will come and go...you just allow them to enter the realm of awareness, without judgement, and acknowledge that each emerging idea is a part of your Self, but not a total answer. Acknowledge the idea, then push it to the side a bit (so to speak) to look deeper past it, and inquire again, deeper still..."That may be part of who I am, but not all that I am. Who am I, really?".

You need to be willing to sit with responses sent up from the deep mind that may have been material you previously defended against (tried to push out of mind, rather than ponder and think about, much less embrace as part of You). If you stay with this approach, you should eventually reach a point where the part of you who knows steps forward in introduction, and you get to meet the Mystic Mind within each and all.

Will it change you into a Buddhist saint, or Hindi Sage? Nope. You'll still be who you are. But you will hopefully have had a brief interaction with the Divine within, which has a net effect of changing the overall colors of glass one percieces life through. Basically, thins the veil so that the potentcy of Spirit is closer to consciousness. Or so they tell me.

Bon Chance!

D.

 

[Mekugi]

When you do you get hit! <?>

MJ :asian:

I think this is a question.....so I will go a little further to explain it....

There are three major types of Bukkyo (Buddhism) in Japan, Rinzai, Soto and Obaku.
What I am talking about is the Rinzai sect, -the first- zen to Japan. The other groups may practice something similar, but it is not the same.

The Rinzai sect was developed by a guy named Rinzai Gigen Zenji, who went to China to seek enlightenment. He came back with something very unusual, at least to what was being practiced in Japan- which was coined Zazen. In fact he could be said to be the person who truly introduced zen to Japan, along with the practice of Zazen, around the 9th century. At first it wasn't popular, it took a little while for his teaching to catch on, but when it did it truly set the house on fire.

Now, his method involved hitting, shouting and parables as part of shaking the student loose of their own bodily entrapments. The point was to make or *allow* the student to feel the teachings, to truly understand them in their own lives- and not just to leave them as words on pages in books.

Like that there.

-Russ

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I think this is a question.....so I will go a little further to explain it....

There are three major types of Bukkyo (Buddhism) in Japan, Rinzai, Soto and Obaku.
What I am talking about is the Rinzai sect, -the first- zen to Japan. The other groups may practice something similar, but it is not the same.

The Rinzai sect was developed by a guy named Rinzai Gigen Zenji, who went to China to seek enlightenment. He came back with something very unusual, at least to what was being practiced in Japan- which was coined Zazen. In fact he could be said to be the person who truly introduced zen to Japan, along with the practice of Zazen, around the 9th century. At first it wasn't popular, it took a little while for his teaching to catch on, but when it did it truly set the house on fire.

Now, his method involved hitting, shouting and parables as part of shaking the student loose of their own bodily entrapments. The point was to make or *allow* the student to feel the teachings, to truly understand them in their own lives- and not just to leave them as words on pages in books.

Like that there.

-Russ

Very interesting, thanks Russ for sharing that! We didn't discuss the act of sitting zazen in great detail, so I was not aware of the aspect of listening to teachings. I just assumed they were to meditate and be introspective - clearing their minds. Is the term zen named after Rinzai Gigen Zenji? In terms of Kenpo I have read Ed Parker's book The Zen in Kenpo and found it to be more of a collection of thoughts rather than a method to achieve "Mushin". Russ do you know, or anyone else, if any time in Kenpo history zen was an integral part of Kenpo philosophy or teachings?

MJ :asian:

 

[Mekugi]

Well, Zen itself&#12288;&#31109; means "Silent Meditation" and is called "chan" in the Chinese- so no- it wasn't named after Rinzai Gigen. The Left radical of zen means "Shimesu"- to point out or show, and the right is "tan" -meaning simple or single, while we are talking about it.

This kind of sounds like a jerk thing to say so pardon in advance, but what kempo are you talking about? Kempo is a borrowed word and general term, more or less, and could be used to describe many different "martial arts" that were using it, if that makes sense.

-Russ

Very interesting, thanks Russ for sharing that! We didn't discuss the act of sitting zazen in great detail, so I was not aware of the aspect of listening to teachings. I just assumed they were to meditate and be introspective - clearing their minds. Is the term zen named after Rinzai Gigen Zenji? In terms of Kenpo I have read Ed Parker's book The Zen in Kenpo and found it to be more of a collection of thoughts rather than a method to achieve "Mushin". Russ do you know, or anyone else, if any time in Kenpo history zen was an integral part of Kenpo philosophy or teachings?

MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

One of my favorite meditations is a form of self-inquiry. Near as I can tell, it was positied by Ramana Maharsi to folks like Yogananda and Brunton, and consists mainly of turning the attention inward, and asking, "Who am I, really?".

Ideas will come and go...you just allow them to enter the realm of awareness, without judgement, and acknowledge that each emerging idea is a part of your Self, but not a total answer. Acknowledge the idea, then push it to the side a bit (so to speak) to look deeper past it, and inquire again, deeper still..."That may be part of who I am, but not all that I am. Who am I, really?".

You need to be willing to sit with responses sent up from the deep mind that may have been material you previously defended against (tried to push out of mind, rather than ponder and think about, much less embrace as part of You). If you stay with this approach, you should eventually reach a point where the part of you who knows steps forward in introduction, and you get to meet the Mystic Mind within each and all.

Will it change you into a Buddhist saint, or Hindi Sage? Nope. You'll still be who you are. But you will hopefully have had a brief interaction with the Divine within, which has a net effect of changing the overall colors of glass one percieces life through. Basically, thins the veil so that the potentcy of Spirit is closer to consciousness. Or so they tell me.

Bon Chance!

D.

Dr. Dave,

Thanks! Sorry I missed this post. OK there just might be a little joke in asking who am I? but I won't say it. :lol: Actually, Dr. Dave this seems fairly doable. It seems easier than what I've done in yoga classes to simply try and clear the mind. That is almost impossible...thoughts invade. This way allows for that. I like it, and will give it a try! How long do you usually sit for?

I'm curious, since you say, "or so they tell me," are you being modest or have you at all achieved this state as a Kenpoist, or experienced any benefits you can describe, as a result of this practice?

MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

This kind of sounds like a jerk thing to say so pardon in advance, but what kempo are you talking about? Kempo is a borrowed word and general term, more or less, and could be used to describe many different "martial arts" that were using it, if that makes sense.

-Russ

Please no pardon necessary, if sincere, there are no questions that aren't worthy of being asked...I do know what you mean as I see we are actually in the Kenpo/Kempo forum. Sorry Russ, I wasn't thinking. LOL, maybe I should meditate on that.

I study American Kenpo mostly EPAK. When I asked the question I was thinking more specifically EPAK. I was just curious if any of the Kenpo (EPAK) schools/instructors promote meditation in any of the forms described to help students achieve a state of "no mind" in their training, or if it's achieved more through the training itself.

It would also be interesting to hear from other Kenpo/Kempo people on this as well though.

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Mekugi]

, I wasn't thinking. LOL, maybe I should meditate on that.

Yes indeed....you have reached the apex of zen which is to achieve "no thought". You are now automatically enlightened, pick up your membership card at the door.! See I just don't bother not thinking, which makes me "no mind" by default, which involves even less thought.....(you must be a zen master to follow....)

, When I asked the question I was thinking more specifically EPAK.

Yeah that's totally out of my league. I have no idea. <---There it is again! NO THOUGHT!!
I am a zen master....or just stupid.

-Russ

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Yes indeed....you have reached the apex of zen which is to achieve "no thought". You are now automatically enlightened, pick up your membership card at the door.! See I just don't bother not thinking, which makes me "no mind" by default, which involves even less thought.....(you must be a zen master to follow....) I have no idea. <---There it is again! NO THOUGHT!!
I am a zen master....or just stupid.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Oh my *gawd* it's so simple it's complicated! You've given me a lot to not think about!:lookie:
MJ :lookie:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Dr. Dave,

Thanks! Sorry I missed this post. OK there just might be a little joke in asking who am I? but I won't say it. :lol: Actually, Dr. Dave this seems fairly doable. It seems easier than what I've done in yoga classes to simply try and clear the mind. That is almost impossible...thoughts invade. This way allows for that. I like it, and will give it a try! How long do you usually sit for?

I'm curious, since you say, "or so they tell me," are you being modest or have you at all achieved this state as a Kenpoist, or experienced any benefits you can describe, as a result of this practice?

MJ :asian:

I've had some outstanding results with this meditation. Generally, I think it's considered poor taste to espouse insight...kinduva "claiming to be enlightened, he can't possibly be". I'm by no stretch enlightened, but have expereinced some very cool samadhi's using this meditative approach. Kinda rocks your world when it first happens, though.

Best Regards,

Sri Bodhidavid:roflmao:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Kai Kempoka]While the easy way out is to re-define mushin as a culturally-specific conceptualization of "flow", or optimal states of performance mentality, a question of equal import would be to ask 'How many Kenpoists believe in the notion of a Spiritual Self, apart from and in addition to the daily Self, that could step in and drive the car for you if your were able to get out of it's way? While in the witness-self mode associated with no-mind/spirit-mind, who do you believe is driving the bus?'

Do you think that this is something that needs to be developed or something that is already within us and we must allow it to come forth or both? I ask because I'm thinking of a story I read about a woman who lifted a car off of her child who was pinned under a wheel. This feat of strength is so amazing and while it may be a product of an adrenaline rush, I can't help but believe that she tapped into her spiritual self to summon up the strength...(I can't prove it though :lookie: :wink: ) Maybe the question is... if you don't consciously work to develop this, do you think it is still available to you by opening up to it at a given moment?

but have experienced some very cool samadhi's using this meditative approach

What does the term samadhi's mean?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I personally believe it's always there...the ability to tap in to it is refined through various activities, some meditative, some rigorous.

Lady-lift-car thing is kinduva urban legend, but works well to illustrate a point. I (and again, only my opinion) personally believe that all exceptional moments entail glimpses of spirit poking through the veil.

Samadhi = depends on who you ask. Some assert it is a "mini-enlightenment"; for others it defines a moment of transcendant bliss achieved in meditation or through flow experiences, and still others use the term to refer to supposed psychic and other supranormal powers obtained through dilligent practice of spiritual disciplines. I tend to run with the transcendant piece, myself...a non-drug-induced glimpse into the true nature of Self as spirit, and an introduction to the "peace that transcends all understanding".

D.