Kosho Ryu?

[Flying Crane]

Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

Tony DiSarro

Thanks for this informative post, this supports and verifies some discussions that were carried out in other threads here a while back.

Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques. Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.

I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.

 

[John Bishop]

I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.

Yes, I have to agree with this premise. Kajukenbo is similar, in that it is centered around self defense sets, and free sparring. And it's katas were primarily made from self defense techniques, instead of self defense techniques being taken from katas.
I think if EPAK or Kajukenbo were being formulated today, there would no forms, or just a few basic ones for beginners.
In the 40's-60's era, forms and martial arts just went hand and hand. And for a system to be taken seriously, it had to have forms to be considered complete.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Sounds like Kosho Ryu is designed more like the traditional Chinese and Okinawan systems, which use few, if any, pre-choreographed self defense techniques. Instead, the material beyond the basics is learned in the forms and kata, and extrapolated from that source.

I think perhaps a lot of kenpo people who have no experience with other systems don't realize that the Parker derived kenpo methods are somewhat unique in having a curriculum centered around Self-Defense techniques. This kind of thing is actually a rarity among other systems. Most others just don't use them, and it sounds like Kosho Ryu is more like these others.

That's correct. Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques. There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close. I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based. The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

That's correct. Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques. There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close. I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based. The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.

_Don Flatt

30 Kata? Man that seems like a lot of kata. Who designed them? How long are they etc.?

 

[John Bishop]

That's correct. Kosho does not have pre-choreographed self defense techniques. There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt so what you're describing for traditional systems is pretty close. I will emphasize that Kosho is concept and principle based. The concepts and principles are not extrapolated from the Kata per se but rather they are taught and applied to the Kata as a training tool.

_Don Flatt

That's a lot of katas. Thomas Young told me that Mitose only taught "Naihanchi Shodan". And nobody claims to have learned any katas from Mitose during prison visits.
So who put the other 29 katas into the system? Are they common Japanese/Okinawan katas, or newly created katas?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with.

Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan: A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step. Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.

Pinan Shodan - Godan: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.

Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan: A form created by and taught by Mitose. Translates to Cat Dance. Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose. From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.

Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan: Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.

Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.

Naihano: Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi. Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).

Miyama Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.

Passai Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.

Kusanku Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.

Gankau: Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.

Empi: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.

Shudoso: One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.

I'm part of the third generation of students. There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus. The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho. I'm not sure of the history of either of these.

_Don Flatt

 

[John Bishop]

Thank You

I do have a question about your reference to the "Saru Buto" kata of "Kajukembo".
I have never heard of this form in "Kajukenbo" or "Kajukembo". The forms of the "Original Method" were called "Pinans". They were later (1993) renamed "Palama Sets". The "Kajukembo" group comes from Aleju Reyes, so they also do the "original method" forms.
The "Chuan Fa", "Wun Hop Kuen Do", and "Tum Pai" branches have added some Chinese forms like "Limpo" and "Fau Yup".

So where is it that you got the information about this "Saru Buto" kata?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Maybe it was one of the Pinans. That kind of rings a bell. I meant Kajukenbo - sorry.

_Don Flatt

 

[kosho]

I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with.

Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan: A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step. Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.

Pinan Shodan - Godan: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.

Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan: A form created by and taught by Mitose. Translates to Cat Dance. Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose. From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.

Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan: Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.

Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.

Naihano: Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi. Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).

Miyama Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.

Passai Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.

Kusanku Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.

Gankau: Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.

Empi: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.

Shudoso: One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.

I'm part of the third generation of students. There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus. The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho. I'm not sure of the history of either of these.

_Don Flatt

Donn,
Sorry, but what do you mean you are familiar with? You have listed about say 24 katas. So you can do all of them? or you have the history of the info of them? I just do not understand.
Kosho

 

[Danjo]

I'll list the Kata I'm familiar with.

Juni Ippon Shodan - Sandan: A basic Kata for begining students, literally means 12 Step. Okinawan form created by Chosun Chibana, preserved in Kosho by Bruce Juchnik at the request of Robert Trias.

Pinan Shodan - Godan: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Also called Heian in Shotokan, which translates to Peaceful Way.

Neko Buto Shodan - Sandan: A form created by and taught by Mitose. Translates to Cat Dance. Some of the following may stir controversy because people claim Mitose only did Naihanchi Shodan. Juchnik was shown this form by Trias who learned it from Mitose. From what I've seen Neko Buto Shodan is almost identical to one of the Saru Buto forms done in Kajukembo.

Naihanchi Shodan - Sandan: Again, Mitose was known to perform the Shodan of this series which translates to Iron Horse.

Ennogyo Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Monkey Playing.

Naihano: Mitose's adaptation of Naihanchi. Done 2 ways - Wide Base (hard) & Priest Posture (Soft).

Miyama Shodan - Sandan: Created by Bruce Juchnik translates to Three Mountain.

Passai Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Penetrating the Fortress.

Kusanku Dai & Sho: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Named after a Chinese Military Attachment.

Gankau: Okinawan form from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Bobby Lowe was a former student of Mitose that went on to study with Mas Oyama. Translates to Crane on the Rock.

Empi: Okinawan forms from Kyokoshin that was taught to Thomas Young by Bobby Lowe, permitted to be brought into the Official Self Defense Club by Mitose. Translates to Flying Swallow.

Shudoso: One of Trias' forms taught to Juchnik. Translates to Priest Form.

I'm part of the third generation of students. There have been other Kata in the Kai most of which are still taught but not part of the official syllabus. The ones I know about are Mitose No Keiho and Tensho. I'm not sure of the history of either of these.

_Don Flatt

Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.

Which Pinan from Kajukenbo are you referring to? "Saru Buto" just means "Monkey Dance" which was a generic nickname for all the Kata back in the day. It was never referred to by using Japanese/Okinawan words though that I know of.

 

[Flying Crane]

Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.

this list is only a dozen. That's really not very many compared to a lot of the Chinese arts, and compared to what we have in Tracy Kenpo where I'd say we have at least twice that many or so including weapons kata. Especially if these kata are kind of short (i don't know them, so I don't know if they are short or not), then it really wouldn't be that much, and would be quite manageable.

It's true that one probably doesn't need so many, just 3 or 4 good kata, learned well, would often be enough. But that doesn't mean that this list would be overwhelming.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Donn,
Sorry, but what do you mean you are familiar with? You have listed about say 24 katas. So you can do all of them? or you have the history of the info of them? I just do not understand.
Kosho

These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD. If you count all of the variations you come up with 29. I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them. Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.

Man that's a lot of kata. Doesn't seem like it would leave much time to train anything else trying to learn all those.

They're meant to be studied and played with for the rest of your life. It's not really meant to be approached from a learn and move on standpoint. At different times in your study you will favor different Kata depending on what you are learning and what you discover. Right now my favorite Kata is Miyama Shodan because I'm working on subtle and fluid circular movement using the lower body to manipulate the upper.

Which Pinan from Kajukenbo are you referring to? "Saru Buto" just means "Monkey Dance" which was a generic nickname for all the Kata back in the day. It was never referred to by using Japanese/Okinawan words though that I know of.

Again, I'm not sure why I said Saru Buto - I heard somewhere before - probably on a forum. I have heard Bruce Juchnik say that Neko Buto Shodan was identical to one of the Pinan Katas of Kajukenbo. When I get a chance, I'll post a video and you can tell me which one.

_Don Flatt

 

[Danjo]

this list is only a dozen. That's really not very many compared to a lot of the Chinese arts, and compared to what we have in Tracy Kenpo where I'd say we have at least twice that many or so including weapons kata. Especially if these kata are kind of short (i don't know them, so I don't know if they are short or not), then it really wouldn't be that much, and would be quite manageable.

It's true that one probably doesn't need so many, just 3 or 4 good kata, learned well, would often be enough. But that doesn't mean that this list would be overwhelming.

Actually there are 28 kata listed as a requirement for black belt. shodan-godan = 5 kata. Shodan-Sandan=3 kata etc. Sho & Do = 2 kata.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually there are 28 kata listed as a requirement for black belt. shodan-godan = 5 kata. Shodan-Sandan=3 kata etc. Sho & Do = 2 kata.

I guess I'm not quite sure what you are referencing here. I don't know Kosho Ryu, so I cannot comment on any specifics of it. I was just contrasting the numbers.

Are you stating there are 28 in the Kosho Ryu system? Or some other context?

Even if this is what you are stating, while I agree, it is a lot, it is still not necessarily overwhelming. I think Tracy Kenpo must have about that many, and some Chinese arts have at least that many, probably more. I think Choy Li Fut has about a billion forms, they like to do A LOT of weapons, and have forms to cover just about everything imaginable. Does everyone learn all of them? Likely not. Probably only a very few do. But i suspect the average student (however that might be defined) learns quite a few.

A friend of my sifu studied under Wong Jack Man in San Francisco. While Sifu Wong was teaching the 10 Shaolin forms, he was actually teaching a lot more interspersed throughout. He told me that he actually learned about 40 or so forms, by the time he had learned the 10 Shaolin. Yes, he did find this somewhat overwhelming. But he did it, it certainly can be done if one enjoys forms training and has an aptitude for it (not everyone fits this description, of course).

Anyway, I'm just offering some perspective, that's all. What might me an overwhelming number for one person, might not be so much for another.

 

[Danjo]

They're meant to be studied and played with for the rest of your life. It's not really meant to be approached from a learn and move on standpoint.
_Don Flatt

You said in an earlier post that "There are about 30 empty hand Kata to Black Belt" and you list 28 here, so that's what I was referring to. That's a lot of kata to learn to get to black belt.

 

[Danjo]

I guess I'm not quite sure what you are referencing here. I don't know Kosho Ryu, so I cannot comment on any specifics of it. I was just contrasting the numbers.

Are you stating there are 28 in the Kosho Ryu system? Or some other context?

Even if this is what you are stating, while I agree, it is a lot, it is still not necessarily overwhelming. I think Tracy Kenpo must have about that many, and some Chinese arts have at least that many, probably more. I think Choy Li Fut has about a billion forms, they like to do A LOT of weapons, and have forms to cover just about everything imaginable. Does everyone learn all of them? Likely not. Probably only a very few do. But i suspect the average student (however that might be defined) learns quite a few.

A friend of my sifu studied under Wong Jack Man in San Francisco. While Sifu Wong was teaching the 10 Shaolin forms, he was actually teaching a lot more interspersed throughout. He told me that he actually learned about 40 or so forms, by the time he had learned the 10 Shaolin. Yes, he did find this somewhat overwhelming. But he did it, it certainly can be done if one enjoys forms training and has an aptitude for it (not everyone fits this description, of course).

Anyway, I'm just offering some perspective, that's all. What might me an overwhelming number for one person, might not be so much for another.

He lists 28 kata in his post to get to black belt. Many systems have a lot of kata, but the requirements to black belt are far less than the total number contained in the system. In Shotokan there are at least 19 official kata, but only 8 are needed to black belt. the systems you mentioned (Aside from Tracy's) don't have black belts.

 

[Flying Crane]

the systems you mentioned (Aside from Tracy's) don't have black belts.

Yes, that is generally true, altho some teachers of Chinese arts have adapted belt systems. I know that Choy Li Fut sifu Tat Mau Wong in San Francisco definitely uses a belt system. How he divides the curriculum among the belts, and what is required for a first degree black belt, I certainly don't know, and I expect it is much less than the complete body of material.

Not having a belt system is sort of liberating when learning a lot of material. You just keep learning it and don't worry about the ranks. It just becomes that lifelong pursuit that you always work on.

In slightly less than 10 years of study under my sifu, I have learned about 30 forms, some external, some tai chi, some weaponry. My sifu uses a ranking system, but it is mostly forgotten about and ignored. He has never ranked anyone at black belt. My first and only ranking with him came after training for about 6 or 7 years with him, he ranked me at green belt, somewhere in the middle. I hardly even knew he used a ranking system prior to that, so it was just never an issue.

I have also learned the three primary hand forms of Wing Chun during this same time, from a different sifu.

This is in addition to my training in Tracys, where I had learned 13 or so for shodan, and which I am now retraining.

I still practice all of them. True, not as much as I would like because it is a lot of material, but I like it all and so keep practicing them all. Some I like better and spend more time on, but I always keep the others as well.

anyway, I find it manageable. so there it is, just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Let me try this.

[yt]0Sx9GCbMkY4[/yt]

_Don Flatt

 

[Todd Reiner]

Kajukenbo #1, close anyways.

 

[kosho]

These are the Kata outlined in the Kata No Michi text and DVD. If you count all of the variations you come up with 29. I've been studying the book and have attempted to do all of them. Some I can do better than others because I understand them better.

Ok, Yes I have the same book and dvds. I also have over 200 DVDs from Hanshi Juchnik I picked them up at the Lake george Summit. plus others from Pat kelly Sensei and many from John Evans Sensei. Some personal ones made just for me.

Great Book by Hanshi with the katas. Katas I have in my brain.
1-5 Pinan SKK, 1-6 kata SKK, 3 sia forms SKK, 3 staff forms, 2 nun- chuk katas SKK, Pinan 2 from PROF Kimo. Satue of the crane SKK,
North side, south side two man fist set SKK, Hansuki tiger SKK,
SHO TONG KWOK SKK, Circle of the leopard SKK, Pinan Geri SKK,
Off the top of my head this is some of the Shaolin Kempo Karate katas I have. I have Kosho Ryu kempo Katas. Donn F has listed the 29 in the Book. I will list the ones have have down later. But i have about 45 to my current rank.
Kosho