Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

[Kframe]

Hi, I want to start this thread as a alternative to my thread in TKD. I do plan on taking the intro class, but Just in case, for some reason it does not work out in TKD, what kicks should I consider adding to my arsenal. Im currently un happy with my long range weapons and tactics. My new MMA coach(who is focused on this as a self defense art) is teaching me tactics and drills to deal with kickers and get in close were I am at my best. I am not satisfied with only being able to fight at one range I need to be versatile. I want to be able to fight at all ranges. Now my coach only really focus's on a few kicks. I came to the new gym having learned the Front push and front snap kick and round kick(hybrid TKD style) having learned them from my previous mma gym. The kicks I have learned just happen to be the kicks my new mma gym focus's on as well.

My new coach is more then willing to stay after class and work on anything I want to work on. That includes kicks. I know right now my horrid flexibility will basicly limit me to what I already know and im ok with that. However I am actively working on my flexibility and it is improving. I would like, when the time is right with my flexibility, to fill in some gaps in my kicking.

At my previous gym, I kinda stumbled apon the spinning back kick. I was doing a kicking combo during sparring. Lead leg front kick, to rear leg round kick(impact on lower ribs) then I just turned around did what I thought was a good back kick. It landed firmly as well. My coach gave a affirming nod of the head, and I knew I did it correctly. Im not sure how it happened truthfully, I just saw a opening after the round kick. It just popped into my head to spin around on my foot that completed the round kick and throw the other back.

I am attempting to learn the side kick, but my flexability is not to the point yet were I can use it. I was in my last sparring session at my former mma gym and used it, to less then good results. I was sparring the coach, and threw the lead leg side kick. My target was his chest, my hip flexability made my target his manhood..... It was a light to moderate contact sparring session.

So, when my flexability improves, what should I start practicing with my coach? Which ones should I consider and why? This is only assuming the TKD class does not work out. Figured I would think ahead..

My goals are Primarily self defense, but I do at some point in the not so near future I want to do one cage fight.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you have some kicks you personally like, or use often, practice them more.

 

[Kframe]

Cyriacus, thanks for the imput sir. Well the only kicks I know are the ones mentioned. I shadow box my kicks every day. The front kick and low to mid round kick seam to be my bread and butter. I cant reach anyones head yet, so I don't try to do many high kicks. I have to lean WAY over to do them. THe front push and snap don't have the power I would like, so I wanted the back kick and side kick to be my power linear kicks. Sadly I just don't have the hips to do them with any certainty above the waist. Sure low line kicks are easy for me, but I cant do them with to much power in sparring. Nor can I target my primary low lvl targets, which are man hood and front of knees. So I have to air drill those, and set up targets on the heavy bag at various heights and distances apart to simulate were in space ill be kicking

 

[Chris Parker]

How many kicks do you need for self defence? None. But if you do want to add some, keep the number small, keep them simple, keep them low, keep them powerful, and keep them versatile. I'd stick with two, personally, a stomp (to knees or ankles), and a shin kick (to the groin, inner thigh, outer thigh).

But really, you need​ none.

 

[Cyriacus]

Sure low line kicks are easy for me, but I cant do them with to much power in sparring. Nor can I target my primary low lvl targets, which are man hood and front of knees. So I have to air drill those, and set up targets on the heavy bag at various heights and distances apart to simulate were in space ill be kicking

Have you tried asking someone else in the class if theyd mind doing some very light sparring just so that you can practice targeting them on a human?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Work the sweep off the front leg, both, with the bottom and top of the foot.
Sean

 

[Kframe]

Have you tried asking someone else in the class if theyd mind doing some very light sparring just so that you can practice targeting them on a human?

Thanks for the suggestion! No I have not, ill ask the coach and if he ok's it ill ask for help with VERY light contact sparring with those contact points. I really need experience targeting those points on a moving human, but darned I don't want to hurt anyone...

 

[Kframe]

Touch of death, Could you elaborate on your post a bit. I would love to hear more on this line of thought from you sir.

 

[Kframe]

How many kicks do you need for self defence? None. But if you do want to add some, keep the number small, keep them simple, keep them low, keep them powerful, and keep them versatile. I'd stick with two, personally, a stomp (to knees or ankles), and a shin kick (to the groin, inner thigh, outer thigh).

But really, you need​ none.

You don't think I need any? Hmmm I never thought of it like that. Now Im wondering what the odds of someone throwing a half baked kick at me on the streets are. Its not hard to imitate a round kick seen on the UFC. My friend at work, the golden glove boxer, got into a number of street fights in his youth. He had one person try to kick him and it was a crotch shot, done like a soccer kick. He said he just moved backwards out of the way.

Hmm much to think about, Id ask my Father about this question, but I already know what he will say. He is TKD after all.

 

[Chris Parker]

Is TKD for self defence, though....?

Really, having some basic defence against a kicking attacker is advisable (although it really doesn't need to be against a skilled attacker... just someone who's watched too much UFC, frankly), but you don't actually "need" any kicks yourself for self defence. I very rarely utilise any when I'm teaching self defence... it's almost all hands. That's not just for the common reasons (keeping balance, faster etc), but because most violent encounters occur at what is known as "interview distance"... approximately one to two handspans apart. From there, you're already at hands-range, before you're even engaged in the violence aspect. There's more, but that's the crux of it.

 

[Cyriacus]

You don't think I need any? Hmmm I never thought of it like that. Now Im wondering what the odds of someone throwing a half baked kick at me on the streets are. Its not hard to imitate a round kick seen on the UFC. My friend at work, the golden glove boxer, got into a number of street fights in his youth. He had one person try to kick him and it was a crotch shot, done like a soccer kick. He said he just moved backwards out of the way.

Hmm much to think about, Id ask my Father about this question, but I already know what he will say. He is TKD after all.

You dont need anything. You can physically throw yourself at someone then smother them to death by laying on their face. That doesnt necessarily make it a good approach, or a bad one :drinkbeer

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is TKD for self defence, though....?

The TKD I train is, yes.

Really, having some basic defence against a kicking attacker is advisable (although it really doesn't need to be against a skilled attacker... just someone who's watched too much UFC, frankly), but you don't actually "need" any kicks yourself for self defence. I very rarely utilise any when I'm teaching self defence... it's almost all hands. That's not just for the common reasons (keeping balance, faster etc), but because most violent encounters occur at what is known as "interview distance"... approximately one to two handspans apart. From there, you're already at hands-range, before you're even engaged in the violence aspect. There's more, but that's the crux of it.

While you don't "need" kicks, you also don't "need" a lot of other things. But they're a useful tool, just like all the other techniques we train in.

 

[Chris Parker]

The TKD I train is, yes.

Cool. What alterations have you made to it to make it designed for self defence, if any?

While you don't "need" kicks, you also don't "need" a lot of other things. But they're a useful tool, just like all the other techniques we train in.

While I agree that there are a range of other things not "needed", I'd put kicking up there as a big one. Striking is the biggest (physical) skill needed, basic covering/jamming as well, and the ability to disengage quickly and safely, as well as basic weapon defence. Kicking is not something I'd focus on for self defence at all.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It's not so much that you need kicks for self defence it's more that they are good things to know if you want to use them (better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it). The more types of kicks you know the less predictable you will be and the more options you will give yourself but you should concentrate on a few important ones. Front snap kicks and knee strikes are easy to learn and get power out of, side kicks and turning (round) kicks are a little harder to learn properly (especially side kick) but can be far more powerful and give you more angles to attack from so are worth knowing. You do not need to kick high for self defence, a good side kick to the side of the knee can stop just about anyone. The back kick is just about the most powerful kick you can learn (apart from a foot stomp) but requires you to turn you back briefly on your opponent but can be useful if you need to spin around to reacquire a target.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, this whole idea of "being unpredictable" in self defence is really irrelevant. Having a large repertoire, being unpredictable because the opponent doesn't know how to handle you is to not understand the realities of a violent assault... they don't last long enough for such things to be of any benefit.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Cool. What alterations have you made to it to make it designed for self defence, if any?



While I agree that there are a range of other things not "needed", I'd put kicking up there as a big one. Striking is the biggest (physical) skill needed, basic covering/jamming as well, and the ability to disengage quickly and safely, as well as basic weapon defence. Kicking is not something I'd focus on for self defence at all.

No changes are needed. Taekwondo includes everything you've mentioned, once you get past the idea that it's 'just a sport'. Your views on what works for self defense are colored by your training (as is true of all of us). There are circumstances where a kick is an ideal response, just as there are circumstances where kicking would be foolish.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Touch of death, Could you elaborate on your post a bit. I would love to hear more on this line of thought from you sir.

Well, you might notice that when you throw back-knuckles at your opponent, their head will rock back, and often times they will shift their weight on to their back leg. This is a great time to launch in with a round house kick to the back of the leg just above the ankle. If his weight isn't off the leg you can aim the same kick a little higher and actually move yourself off the line of attack with the force of the kick.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

While not absolutely essential, I think some kicking skills are a good self defense practice. There may be times you have to defend yourself while your hands are occupied, and a well timed kick when you've been grabbed may buy you the room to do something else. That said -- you really only need one or 2 kicks for self defense.

Chris has an important point with his comment about being unpredictable. Unpredictable helps in sparring and set fights or duels. It's not necessary in self defense because, almost by definition, you'll be working from another timing, and if it goes on long enough that you need to "be unpredictable" -- one of you has done something pretty wrong.

 

[Danny T]

Martial Arts training, self-defense training, and training for the cage/ring are all different mental attitudes. Some of the physical actions are the same, some are similar, however the mental attitude toward what one is training and the manner one trains is not. Chris is correct in most violent action happens far to close and quickly to utilize most of what many martial arts train. Though kicks can be very effective in the open areas of sparring and in sporting events they are not the most effective in the tight confines of the home, in alleyways, buses/subways/autos, offices, stairways, bushes, etc. Stomps, Knees, and elbows are much better suited for the close quarters where most violent actions occur. If one is at a distance that a kick would be effective, a slight step back and to the side completely disengages the attack there by defending yourself. Kick and you are now complicit in the fight.

Self-defense and cage fighting are two completely different animals do not mistake them. Something one of my fighters said after being attacked at a remote site (he was fishing) by 3 individuals as he was returning to his vehicle. "With all the cage experience I have, when I had a gun to my head I suddenly realized I didn't know a damn thing about defending myself and was completely at their mercy."

 

[martial sparrer]

how many kicks deprends on flexibility and years of practice. if you want to be a good kicker stretch your groin area and hip flexors. I like these basic ones: high front kick to face, side to knee and side to abdomen, roundhouse to ribs and round to head, high heel kick and heel kick to ribs. more advanced but still pretty basic is spinning heel, spin side, high spinning heel to head, high side to head. but if yu ask any blackbelt they will tell you kicking to the head makes no sense. enjoy your kicking journey. the best book to learn is THE ESSENTIAL MARTIAL ARTS KICK BOOK - written by 2 blackbelt karate guys from Israel.