ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Most prison shanking DEATHS are rear attacks,multifight ambush shankings,or both.These videos are frontal attack defenses. I have flank and rear attack defenses but they're on my upcoming DVD
Kenpo Knife Defense by Juan José negreira
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Most prison shanking DEATHS are rear attacks,multifight ambush shankings,or both.These videos are frontal attack defenses. I have flank and rear attack defenses but they're on my upcoming DVD
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey Chris,
Yes, I see your point...lol...no pun intended.This clip could be viewed 2 different ways, such as you listed. IMO, I think, and this goes for any clip really, that when something is viewed, its always shown in the same way....a static, controlled fashion. Rarely, do we ever see a clip that shows both of the things that you mention, all rolled into one, ie: the flow, precision, etc, and then the same tech demonstrated in a live fashion.
Hey Mike,
Yep, agreed. Honestly, I think that that's because the two demonstration methods are relatively exclusive to each other. Neither are better than the other, but it should be recognised which you are actually viewing, and it should be reviewed in that way. Otherwise, expecting complete visceral realism out of a drilling method designed to drill principles, such as targeting, distance, movement, co-ordination etc and denigrating it for lacking the realism is like going to the movies and watching a heavy drama, then complaining that it wasn't funny enough, as you were looking for a light romantic comedy.
By "sparring", I'm referring to any form of training where the aim is out performing someone else. Reality is a little different, in that the aim is to survive and escape, rather than out perform. Honestly, all forms of training will have some flaws to them, as the only way to ensure reality is to genuinely damage your training partners, and have them genuinely try to damage you. As we aren't training under Ittosai, that's going a bit too far (an old Kenjutsu master whose teachings include the rule of "Learn by being cut"... )
Actually, the clip you presented shows much closer to the grip that I'm recommending (I'd have my right hand secure from on top, ideally), although the way it's being done here is rather dangerous against a knife. Changing the right hand as I said, and pulling it in towards your right hip will go a long way to securing a knife hand, and stop the other hand coming into play. Two hands on the wrist? As a desperation method, okay. But there are too many issues still for me to rely on it, or opt for it as a first choice.
Firstly, it's the specific two-hands-catching-the-wrist part that I'd change, if you wanted the highest return method you could get. As I said, it can work as a desperation method, but there are still major issues, but I'll come back to those in a second. However, I didn't see a two-hands-on-the-wrist action in either clip you put up.
Next, I personally would have issues with the description of Systema you provide there (one of the most elite forces on earth....), but that's getting into the history controversies that exist around the system.
Next, neither of those clips are what I'd look to as anything closer to realism, honestly. In both clips the attacker "stops" as soon as the defender starts his defence (as can be easily seen in the slow-motion parts of the clips), which removes the reality aspect, in the first (the Krav Maga one), I counted numerous cuts and stabs to the defender, and a lack of control over the knife arm... but that was much better than the second one you posted, where there was no commitment from the attacker, and no control of the weapon hand at all. Both of these clips seem to suffer from a common problem, which is that the attackers are typically students of the demonstrator, and have learnt to be concerned when the demonstrator starts to move. Basically, as a self preservation method, they stop attacking (there's more to this, but that's a good basis). As a result, neither of these clips pass muster for a "realistic" attack or defence... but the Krav one is the better of the two.
And here's one of the issues that I'm seeing... you mention a few times here "once I have the grip on". That's the problem.
Oh, yeah, I got the tempo of the whole movement, that's not what I'm spotting as an issue. Hmm, there may be some confusion here. Tell you what, let's take your clip, and I'll say what I see as the problems (such as they are), and how I would alter them for an even better result.
Really, there are two big things that jump out at me. The first I haven't mentioned so far, but would frankly get you gutted against a decent knifeman. It's your leap to evade. To be clear, leaping away from the initial slashes is a very smart thing to train, and not everyone realises that these things need to be given as much attention as the rest, otherwise freezing is a very real possibility (mainly because you typically will need a moment or two to orient yourself to the situation, and won't just move in straight away, as many teach to do). However, I'd advise keeping your leaps lower to the ground, and going for distance; the second leap you make is too high, and the knifeman would be on you, with his knife in you, before you landed. So leap, absolutely, but keep low.
The other thing is the exact secure you are getting here (two hands on the wrist, specifically - not the fact that it's two hands, it's that it's on the wrist. It's not a high-low secure, which is what you have shown in the clip you linked, and is what I'd advise it is changed to, it's a double grab to the wrist. That's what I'm having problems with).
The problems I see with the grab to the wrist are rather numerous, honestly. First off, you're not moving off the line of the attack, so if you miss, then you've just moved into a knife to your stomach. Next is the real possibility of driving your hands directly down onto the blade, or it slicing up the inside of your forearms. Now, that can be survivable, and you may still get your grip, but now it's going to be slippery with your own blood, making it less secure. Next, the grip works with both hands coming down from on top, meaning that the "weak" aspect of the grip (the opening in your hands where your grip is weakest, and against which all grip releases work) are both on the underside of his arm. If he does pull back (typically he may push against you with his free hand while stepping back and yanking his arm out), he will be working against the weakest part of your grab with both of your hands. A high-low secure means that only one of the hands will have it's "weak" side exposed in this way, so where one is weak, the other is strong, making a much more powerful control. Next, he will be flailing around with the blade on his way out, so unless the secure is very tight and controlling the knife itself (which it isn't if it's held out from your body, essentially it's just become a wrestling match now to see who's strongest), there's a good chance of being cut as a method to get you to let go. Finally, if the attack is more of the "sewing machine" attack, then simply getting the timing of catching the wrist with both hands is rather difficult, as the attacker is already pumping their arm back and forth. You may contact their wrist, and they're already pulling it back, which means you miss.
Instead, I'd move to the outside (outflank), allowing my left (lead) hand to catch the upper arm (which moves a lot slower), and my right (rear) hand to come down on top of the forearm, and then make it's way down to catch the wrist. From there, the knife hand is pulled in besides my right hip and I drop my bodyweight down on top of the attackers arm to help control. In this position, staying low and stable, even with the knifeman struggling, trying to pull the knife back, trying to shake me off, I can stay in control and ride the struggle. And, yes, I've trained that with people about twice my size. You can get an armbar against the elbow with your body, and the pull in to the hip is the same as your "whipping" action. Additionally, if I miss, my arms form a protective barrier against the knife, and I've moved offline so I don't get stabbed for missing it.
There is also minimalist chance of swapping the knife hand, or striking with the opposite hand in the version I mention as well, I might note, and it works even better against someone with longer limbs or someone taller (as you drag them down, and move inside their field of range). I would not advise going for the wrist initially the way you do as, although it is vital to control it against a knifeman, it is also the fastest moving part of his arm, and the easiest for him to avoid your grip with.
I've been exposed to police training here in regards to knife defence. My response was along the lines of "So, they want you to die?"
Again, though, your method can work, but I would class it as a desperation method. If teaching someone, I would give them something much higher return for the reasons I stated.
It may just be a difference in terminology, but none of what I saw in your clip there was sparring. It was drilling, but not sparring. And I would say that nothing that I have learnt functionally was in what I refer to as "sparring", which is, as I said to Mike earlier in this post, a training exercise where both parties attempt to outperform each other. Most of my highly functional work has been against resistance, and with adrenaline, but it was not sparring.
Ha, yeah, I had a few....
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ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Another good post here,Chris...and I think we may be having a combination of issues here. The first may be just a specific preference based upon our experiences...specifically the 2 on 1. The second is the leap backwards body whip and hip stuff.The third may be more semantics than anything,regarding how we use the words "sparring" and "drilling" and what these words mean to each of us. I will address the second matter first.
If you go to my video CHECKING THE STORM PT.3 you will note a couple vital points of info that I think you might have missed the first time around when you noted my second leap backward from the knife at about 1:04 to 1:08. The first and most important part is that my leap changed direction. I went from backwards to a quick arcing,longer lateral jump without any warning. This movement buys me more time because not only does my attacker miss with the knife which requires him to readjust his arm,he also has to change direction to track me. He will not have time to nail me when I'm in the air.He could be a better than average knifeman,and he still wouldn't hit me because I'm not there to be hit.He would need to recover from the missed knife swing,pivot,step to me and attack in order to catch me and frankly that lateral movement of mine is flat out too quick for that. Secondly? I'm not high in the air,I just shot my hips back quickly then returned to my center of gravity very quickly and ATTACKED MY KNIFE WIELDING OPPONENT FROM OFF ANGLE IN ONE MOVEMENT THE SPLIT SECOND I LANDED.Look at the angle of the knife visavis my body at 1:08.The knife is angled off heading outside of my right hip. It was backward jump,lateral jump-land-attack all in one movement. That single fluid flow removed the knife from being direcly in line with me,and neatly sidestepped all of the issues you raised that were of concern--including using my hip as leverage against his knife hand--but which you didn't know that I already addressed.In short? Not only am I offline from the attack using a movement that will take my attacker extra time to adjust to,I attacked him from off angle prior to his full recovery.
I used this specific sequence several times before,but a specific time springs to mind: when I faced by one of the more notorious knife wielding Pirus in Compton. Usually those bruthas carry guns (he did too) but I'd already disarmed him and he came after me with a knife almost immediately after I'd disarmed him and injured his eye.It works very well,even against guys who's vision aren't impaired.
Secondly,remember that the attack is off angle.This prevents me from impaling myself on the knife should I miss...a very unlikely thing to happen because my movement put me in a very good position to grab the arm where I wish with minimal danger to myself.Which brings me to another very important and very often misunderstood area that you and I may just disagree on because we are different people and naturally differ on various matters: the 2 on 1 that you recommend is not a tech that you can go into immediately with power authority and control in multiple scenarios. If you're a woman against a bigger man,for instance,or if you're in a multifight. Especially a multifight with knives bottles chairs and whatnot around (been there working special assignment for THE QUEEN MARY in the X HALL in LONG BEACH). The first thing you must do is establish control,and the fastest most efficient universal method of control tha I know of and have tested is the off angle 2 on 1 bodywhip that I use. This 2 on 1 double wrist tie allows me the option to flow from 2 on 1 variant to 2 on 1 variant regardless of the scenario and regardless of the number and size discrepancy I face visavis opponents. The 2 on 1 wrist and bicep tie you refer to is a good hold that I really like,but it's not as immediately universal and effective as the one that I use. It's much better for 1 on 1 conflict with people of relatively similar size and usually works much better for men than it does for women.I recommend TRANSITIONING to that hold when circumstances favor or dictate that hold,but the best FOUNDATIONAL hold is the 2 on 1 wrist tie in my experience. Both holds work veeeery well against "the sewing machine". They don't get a chance to "sew". Lol.However,only the 2 on 1 double wrist tie provides the option to flow from 2 on 1 tie to 2 on 1 tie immediately while maintaining maximum mobility and keeping all striking and escape options open (we also do dive roll escapes here,which are VEEERY EFFECTIVE as the bad guy has NO IDEA that you can do such a thing and is shocked by its execution).There is also another danger to the bicep and wrist tie,and that is that if you're shorter than your attacker and especially shorter and lighter by any significant degree? You offer your hair up to be grabbed. Not fun.I've seen guys get peeled off of that hold or have their offense and defense nuetralized as the bad guy instinctively grabbed their hair started heaving and sawing the head about and sometimes into objects and walls, and throwing knees to the face while yanking to get their arm free and running (as in sprinting) through the defender. Once their arm is free,they get to doing "the sewing machine" with much greater vigor now because they realize that they're in danger and they're angry and worried about it. The 2 on 1 double wrist tie I recommend entirely eliminates those concerns. The 2 on 1 double wrist tie allows you to keep your balance and you have the option of using all of your offensive weapons at once while not exposing the top of your cranium or your hair to attacks from the bad guy. Again...we don't differ on using the 2 on 1. You just recommend a specific variation only,whereas I recommend an approach that not only neatly side steps the issues that you raised but allows transitioning to all the other 2 on 1 variants including the bicep and wrist tie that you recommend,aaaand my approach allows you to flow to the bicep and wrist tie when warranted without sacrificing one iota of your total offense. The more versatile offense with the more impregnable defense is imho the superior option,and I think that I just demonstrated that the approach I recommend has more versatility and is alot harder to be countered than what may have been initially thought.
Allow me to address another point here. You harped upon a specific sentence fragment of mine which makes me want to repetitively clarify a specific point. When I say :" once I have the grip on " I mean it from the perspective of fluid siezing and flowing,not a choppy grab-stop-go motion. I know you said that you understand the body dynamics of grip-body whip being ONE MOVEMENT,but that makes me wonder why you specifically focused on me saying "once I have the grip on". If you understood that grip-body whip happens at once,then you'd know that the grip is part of the full motion of the body whip and they happen simultaneously and organically...like the muscle coordination of your arm as you shoot the jab.Getting hit with the jab means all the necessarily musculoskeletal coordination has already occurred to launch and crack you with it.You can't say:"Well once he hits me with the jab I will jam it at the bicep." Because the bicep has to NOT BE JAMMED in order to hit you with the extended jab in the first place. You can't have an issue with my grip and divorce it from the body whip that it's part and parcel of. Had I executed the body whip with gusto? My friend Jabari in the CHECKING THE STORM PT. 3 video with me would have been tossed into and probably over the white fence partitioning his driveway from the neighbors driveway...and his arm and elbow would have suffered some form of significant damage. Like I've repeatedly stated,the bodywhip by itself frequently disarms opponents,whether you're a man or not. One of my colleagues--little 105 pound Latina named Myra--whom I taught this tech to has disarmed men twice her size with the 2 on 1 body whip.I witnessed this on 2 occassions myself. The 2nd time? The drunk in question went to the hospital,had his arm laid up for a few weeks and he actually tried to sue her.He lost the case,but still. Aaaand I might add that this guy was 250 pounds.The 2 on 1 wrist and bicep tie up would not have been the move for Myra under those circumstances.
Now,addressing the matter of "sparring" and "drilling"...to me? "Drilling" helps to impart specific skill sets into muscle memory. It's a repetitive act against specific stimuli which teaches you to apply a specific skill--knife disarms--against specific kinds of attacks. Sparring comes at various intensities and degrees and purposes,but what's universal to me for the term sparring are:
1. Sparring at the higher levels of intensity is the closest that we can get to actual combat. In fact,sparring against skilled opposition oftentimes exceeds the street or actual reality of self-defense by quite a bit,and this is probably theee most valuable benefit to sparring.
2. Sparring speed and intensity can be ratcheted down to accomodate the experience and skill level of the practitioner,so even n00bs can spar their very first day without fear of being hurt but with the benefit that accrues from sparring against resisting,noncooperative opposition of various levels of experiences,body types,etc etc.
What are your thoughts regarding "drilling" and "sparring"?
To me and for my ATACX GYM...NEITHER VIDEO OF ME that I showed was either "drilling" OR "sparring". This was just some mundane step-by-step stuff. In my DVD,you will see the difference. My drills are much faster,and oftentimes people think that my drills ARE sparring because they're very close in appearance and they're designed to be very close. Think of how Floyd and Roger Mayweather shadowboxing and working the mitts.
Now replace the mitts with the knife,and that's how I do my knife,stick,etc. drills. Very dynamic,very realistic. My sparring doesn't have the ceaseless perpetual motion of my drilling,but the intent to do damage is greater. You can and do get popped while drilling,but you can and do get popped MORE and usually HARDER while SPARRING.
Which brings me to another very important point: you said that you counted various knife hits on the Israeli spec-ops guy. Truth is? You're gonna get knicked clocked and cut if you train with knives,especially the real deal. I prefer wooden knives because I like the impact that teaches you to respect the weapon,it's cheaper than Shock Knives,and nobody bleeds (that much anyway). Because you know that one mistake will equal pain and blood,knife vs knife (even wooden knife) sparring tends to take on a clash-and get out approach. If you're facing a guy with a knife and you don't have one? We practice against the sewing machine attack most of the time,which also includes feints and slashes too. I have never gone a few weeks of knife training wherein I wasn't "cut" or clocked a couple times per session. I've never gone a month of knife training without taking at least one bad stab (especially in multifight scenarios) against my sparring partners. If anyone claims they have? Imo chances are very high that they're lying or their sparring partners suck.
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Hi Chris,
I hear what you're saying. So, in this case, I'd say we're watching what we in the Kenpo world call the "Ideal Phase" where everything is just that...ideal. Everything works according to plan, and the technique is a success. However, and Ras can attest to this, whats rare, is viewing these techniques with someone doing something other than posing and cooperating. It would be nice to see something other than the norm, so to speak...lol. Reason I say this, is because for those that dont know any better, they will watch something like this, and possibly assume that reality is just like this, when in fact, its not.
True, and I agree that we can't replicate a 'real' situation, we can come close, and people such as Police officers, Firefighters, and Military do this all the time. IMO, 99% of the simulated training is the mindset.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I disagree here. I think surviving and escaping is PART OF outperforming your opponent,depending on what's going on there. If you're a civilian? Surviving and escaping with zero or minimal damage is the number one goal;however you may not have that option. What if you're facing a knife wielding bad guy on a bus? What if you're with a loved one or baby or grandmother or some inebriated friends or any number of real world scenarios like a car jacking by knife or home invasion or mugging where escape is simply NOT an option? You have to repel the opponent,overwhelm him,overcome him.Or THEM. One's base training approach must take this reality into consideration,and use a methodology that seamlessly flows into both options and uses both or either instantaneously and decisively as the stituation requires.
What if you're the LEO called in to subdue the knife wielding suspect and you can't shoot him? Stick time or pepper spray or something,right? Well what if you did that and you're cuffing one BG and his knife wielding buddy jumps you from the flank? Now you gotta deal with this nutcase AND his buddy. I had to do that while working HRS in South Central,Compton,Long Beach,Paramount and a few other areas besides. That 2 on 1 grip made alllll the difference EVERY TIME in those scenarios. I can happily say in the instances that I referenced,I wasn't cut at all. I HAVE been cut on the street fighting guys with knives before (not fun,not at all recommended) but it's never been a bad cut. Most guys suck empty handed AND SUCK EVEN MORE with a weapon,they just FEEL THEY HAVE THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EDGE OF EMPOWERMENT AND INTIMIDATION WITH A WEAPON.And for the most part,they're right.But if you have your quality reps in via quality training? You can feel pretty confident against some untrained schmuck trying to gut you...all you gotta do is manage the adrenaline dump and you're g2g.
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Umm...I'm confused. What part of this are you disagreeing with? I didn't think that I said anything that anyone would disagree with. The first part of the post, I was responding to what Chris said about the videos...and how there are different ways to view them, depending on whats presented in the clip. I simply said that in the vast majority of clips, all you ever see is compliance. Rarely do you see aliveness.
The second part of my statement was also in response to Chris. He said real life is different than training, to which I agree. I went further and stated that training is still important, ie: training simulations. I said that LEOs, Military, etc, all do some sort of training to simulate the real deal, even though the training itself isnt real, meaning that the odds of someone getting seriously hurt or killed, are slim.
So...all that said, could you please clarify what you're saying?
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
actually I quoted the wrong post there,MJS. My fault there. I was trying to focus on the part of Chris' quote where he mentioned the word "out perform" and the point that he was getting at as I understand it. I didn't mean to quote your post at all. Chris wrote a good post--again--I just disagree that first "outperforming" is relegated to any form of exclusive mindset or goal; there are those that denigrate sport combatives as not being beneficial for self-defense (which in several important aspects they're correct,and in several others they are very much incorrect). One's performance is exactly that; performance. There is no question that the person with the higher performance wavlength in whatever endeavor has the advantage in whatever endeavor visavis those who don't. It's very important to be as athletic as possible,EVEN MORESO FOR SELF DEFENSE BECAUSE THE VARIABLES ARE SIGNIFICANTLY WIDER IN SCOPE AND POTENTIALLY MORE DEADLY IN CONSEQUENCE. I neeever could understand why some of the most ardent champions of RBSD are sloppy out of shape kinda psycho types who tend to imply with their every word that every streetfighter out there is some nightmare combination of Jason from Friday the 13th and Vlad the Impaler. I want to call special attention to the part of Chris' post where he made this comment:
" And I would say that nothing that I have learnt functionally was in what I refer to as "sparring", which is, as I said to Mike earlier in this post, a training exercise where both parties attempt to outperform each other. Most of my highly functional work has been against resistance, and with adrenaline, but it was not sparring..."
I have no idea what he means by this in a real world sense. As I stated before...if you're not fighting in a live self-defense situation and you're not trying to maim the person you're working with? You're sparring.Sparring can be veeeery intense. As I stated earlier,Navy SEALS have been killed while "sparring", and they're not the only ones. Plus sparring is an extremely valuable tool that in many instances vastly outstrips the actual self-defense situation we're practicing to defend ourselves against because the people that we're working with are generally significantly superior to the people we will be defending ourselves against. Our sparring partners and scenarios tend to combine challenges that are MORE DIFFICULT than the "actual" self-defense scenario that we will find ourselves in ( for instance, I have a pretty common one where I make my upper belts and HRS guys enter a multifight,find a person who's getting beat up,rescue that person,and escape with them while protecting the rescued person and not getting beat up themselves.And they have to do this while the clock is ticking cuz it's a timed drill) and perform our techs against people who are superior physically and mentally visavis the BG in almost every regard,have a giant advantage visavis superior combat arsenal in every sense of the word,aaand our sparring partners tends to know our "go to" techs which forces us to work EVEN HARDER against them than we would against the clueless BG.
Maybe I completely miss what Chris is getting at. Am I missing your point,Chris? Or maybe what's happening here is that Chris' definition of "sparring" goes only to a particular level of intensity...and no further. But I assure you...if our friend Chris "sparred" with Rickson Gracie? His self-defense grappling performance would dramatically improve. If he trained with Diogenes Assahida (former primary striking trainer of Anderson Silva,whom I have had the honor of working with),his self-defense training would dramatically improve. If he got knife and stick happy with the Dog Brothers while sparring,his self-defense deployment of these weapons would improve. If he trained with whatever is the equivalent of his nearest big city SWAT TEAM,his weapons and CQB tactics would improve. And this comprehensive self-defense improvement would all accrue via sparring.
Sooo...Chris...what EXACTLY is sparring to you? Give us an example of your experience with what you deem to be "sparring"...and give us an example of the kinds of things you learned that was what you deem "highly functional" but what you DON'T call "sparring". Specifics,please,if you don't mind. I think that what is likely is that my definition of the word 'sparring' and the activities connected to it includes everything that you referred to when you said:
"...highly functional work has been against resistance, and with adrenaline, but it was not sparring..."
...so let's see from which perspective we're working from.
No problem Brutha...I figured that may've been the case, just wanted to make sure.
I can only assume that what Chris is talking about, is....unless the situation was so real, that the end result was serious injury and/or death, or as he said, where the goal is to survive/escape, then its not reality. I do agree with you though Ras...I've heard of SEAL Team training in which live fire exercises were done, and death resulted.
Like I said, IMO, alot of it is the mindset. No, chances are, we're probably not going to get killed, but we do need to take our training to that 'level' in which we can test ourselves. Sure, when we work knife defense, when we get 'cut' and we have those black or red 'cuts' on us, we still have to be cognisant that "Hey, if that was a real blade, chances are, my arm may be taken out of the game." I do this not only with blade work, but with stick work, and empty hand techs. Its amazing what some stick sparring can do for reality sake. In other words, a good portion of what you do in the relaxed state, tends to go out the window when that stick is coming very fast.
Same with empty hand stuff.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, this could take a bit....
Yeah, it could be semantics. Let's see if we can clear that up as much as possible.
I've looked back at the video a number of times now, and to be frank, I see the knifeman wait for you. You do jump high, but not back far enough on the second jump, and if against myself, or any of our instructors or seniors, you'd be gutted. If any of my students leapt like that, they'd be shown why I advise against it, pretty quickly. We have a lot of leaping in our system, so it's something that I'm going to notice. You're not that quick, based on the video, my friend.
Now, that sounds wonderful, but it's still playing against the odds, even if what you're saying is correct. If you can achieve success with these lower-return methods relatively frequently, that's one thing. There are many things that I can do, and get away with, that my students wouldn't have a chance with yet. When teaching skills that are potentially taking their lives into account, I prefer to go for the most high-return actions I can.
As far as "side-stepping the issues (I) mention", I currently have the clip paused at 1:09, the moment when you catch the knife. And, I have to say, it's still pointing pretty much straight at your gut (as well as the knifeman being in a better, more stable position than you are, frankly). 1:08 is you very much up in the air....
Again, glad it worked for you. I haven't said it wouldn't, just that it's more a desperation method, and when teaching people methods that are hopefully going to save their lives, I'm going to go for much higher return methods.
Well, where to start here?
Yes, the grip I'm recommending is something that you can enter into easily, and provides better protection and control than the one you are suggesting immediately, either to the inside or outside. It depends on how well you enter in the first place, and what your control mechanisms are... It's also faster than yours, in my experience, I might add, as the control is immediate, secure, and tight, not requiring the two part action that your grip-and-whip method does.
As far as my preferred grip being better for similar sized combatants, I really have to disagree there as well. One of the aspects that I like about it so much is that it is specifically designed to not create a strength war. I have a student who's nearly 7 feet tall, and many others who I simply cannot out-muscle, and I apply this hold pretty damn well, even with them trying to pull out, or throw me off. It is designed to let you ride their force, whereas yours requires immediate application of timing, and if that is missed, can have some real troubles. I'm not going to comment on the "dive roll escapes".
When it comes to "if you're shorter or lighter... you can have your hair pulled", I don't think you've applied this grip the same way I do, honestly. Mainly because, if they try that (or some other such action with the "free" hand), their main arm gets broken, or at least majorly shocked. I really think this may be the big issue, you're simply not applying it the same way I am. The way I do it, it is tight, with their arm held in very securely against my body, so the issues you're talking about don't come up. In fact, they are some of the strongest aspects of it. Knees to the face simply aren't possible from that angle and distance, there simply isn't room.
When it comes to the issues of versatility, I've recommended what I feel and believe is the best, most low-risk, high-return method there is. But nowhere have I even suggested a lack of versatility, in fact, it's built in to the entire method we use. And, again, I believe that there are not the issues that you believe you are side-stepping, nor that your approach is safer. That said, I think we're just going to go round in circles with this.
Yes, I get all of that... what I have meant is that the grip in the first place is not guaranteed, especially against the aforementioned "sewing machine" attack.
Sparring is very removed from actual combat. That's an old discussion, though, but I prefer simulation exercises to sparring.
I think they both have their place, honestly, with drilling being the way you learn the methods themselves. Sparring has benefits, depending on the results desired, but I don't see it as having much relationship to reality at all, for a range of reasons. Again, they are all covered elsewhere, and most likely I am employing the term in a more specific way than you may be.
Out of interest, then, why did you link the second clip of yourself when discussing the value of sparring as you use the term if neither video actually showed it?
With Floyd's clip, I don't think any of that could be mistaken for sparring, as there wasn't any. And if that's the way you drill knife defence, it's a great skill builder, but not realistic. The two are separate.
Yeah, I recognise that that's the reality, my point was more that you were putting the Krav clip up as an example of how safely and successfully they applied similar methods to yours, although I didn't see the grip you use being applied there at all.
I agree that it's not reality, but then again, I don't think that's the point. It comes across to me as a demonstration of the curriculum, which would be the IP methods, yeah?
Yeah, which is why I'm a big fan of simulation training over sparring. Even that, though, isn't quite it, but it's as close as you can get.
Outperforming implies "beating" someone, surviving and escaping can be very different. In each of the cases you mention, if you start with the mindset of "beating" them, you're behind the ball to begin with, as you've just removed yourself from the reality of the situation and the actual options, including what is realistically available to you. So I'd still say there is no aspect of "outperforming" present there, or if there is, it shouldn't be.
None of which negates having a higher return lower risk approach in the first place. But again, we're just going round in circles here.
I think we disagree on what sparring is, then. To me, sparring is a training exercise where two combatants attempt to "beat", or "outperform" their opponents; you simultaneously attack and defend, with an emphasis typically on the attacking side of things, and there is no attempt made to escape the situation, or any other realistic simulation of an actual self defence encounter. Scenario training, such as the SEALs training mentioned, is not sparring. I might suggest that the "ardent champions of RBSD" that you are referring to (with the caveat that your description is not the main as I have seen, including when I have trained under a number of them) are not the athletically endowed persons that you may expect because that is not the reality of actual violence. But I've never heard any of them describe a street predator or attacker as such a nightmare, either.
In terms of my saying that nothing I have learnt functionally coming out of sparring, that is completely true. Sparring has been a big part of my training background (in TKD, karate, some BJJ, some boxing, and more), but as it is divorced from reality, the benefits are not what I would class as "functional" lessons. Those lessons have come to me far more from drilling, adrenaline based drills, and scenario training.
Ha, Rickson? No. Royce, yes, though. Does that count? Intensity has nothing to do with my definition of sparring, really. And I might suggest not suggesting what might "improve" my abilities within any area unless you are sure of what my level currently is. Especially when it comes to weapons, as that is something that I spend much of my time dealing in, in a wide variety of ways. And I can see none of it improving by unrealistic training methods, frankly.
Well, sparring is as I said above; scenario training and high level drilling (including adrenaline drilling) is where I develop my functional skills... as they are training me to apply the skills functionally in the situation that I might need to use them in. Sparring is a different environment, with different skills being required for success, hence it not being a functional training method for my needs. And don't get me wrong, I was actually pretty good at sparring within the systems I've trained in, I just don't have a use for it with my current approach to training.
But to specifics.... the best I can offer are the scenario drills, really. For example, there is the "wall" drill, where you have your eyes closed, and are suddenly shoved back into a wall, you open your eyes, and have to fend off an attack, or attack back, or escape (depending on the drill). It is also done side-on to the wall, or facing the wall. That gets you used to a sudden adrenal surge (rather than it being an already present aspect), as well as handling the chaos of a real encounter, and removing the issues of trying to "beat", or outperform someone. It's not sparring, but is a free-responce training method. And the skills I got out of that (handling adrenaline, handling an incoming barrage, etc) are highly functional, and were not gained from anything like sparring.
Yeah, it could be semantics. Let's see if we can clear that up as much as possible.
I've looked back at the video a number of times now, and to be frank, I see the knifeman wait for you. You do jump high, but not back far enough on the second jump, and if against myself, or any of our instructors or seniors, you'd be gutted. If any of my students leapt like that, they'd be shown why I advise against it, pretty quickly. We have a lot of leaping in our system, so it's something that I'm going to notice. You're not that quick, based on the video, my friend.
Now, that sounds wonderful, but it's still playing against the odds, even if what you're saying is correct. If you can achieve success with these lower-return methods relatively frequently, that's one thing. There are many things that I can do, and get away with, that my students wouldn't have a chance with yet. When teaching skills that are potentially taking their lives into account, I prefer to go for the most high-return actions I can.
As far as "side-stepping the issues (I) mention", I currently have the clip paused at 1:09, the moment when you catch the knife. And, I have to say, it's still pointing pretty much straight at your gut (as well as the knifeman being in a better, more stable position than you are, frankly). 1:08 is you very much up in the air....
Again, glad it worked for you. I haven't said it wouldn't, just that it's more a desperation method, and when teaching people methods that are hopefully going to save their lives, I'm going to go for much higher return methods.
Well, where to start here?
Yes, the grip I'm recommending is something that you can enter into easily, and provides better protection and control than the one you are suggesting immediately, either to the inside or outside. It depends on how well you enter in the first place, and what your control mechanisms are... It's also faster than yours, in my experience, I might add, as the control is immediate, secure, and tight, not requiring the two part action that your grip-and-whip method does.
As far as my preferred grip being better for similar sized combatants, I really have to disagree there as well. One of the aspects that I like about it so much is that it is specifically designed to not create a strength war. I have a student who's nearly 7 feet tall, and many others who I simply cannot out-muscle, and I apply this hold pretty damn well, even with them trying to pull out, or throw me off. It is designed to let you ride their force, whereas yours requires immediate application of timing, and if that is missed, can have some real troubles. I'm not going to comment on the "dive roll escapes".
When it comes to "if you're shorter or lighter... you can have your hair pulled", I don't think you've applied this grip the same way I do, honestly. Mainly because, if they try that (or some other such action with the "free" hand), their main arm gets broken, or at least majorly shocked. I really think this may be the big issue, you're simply not applying it the same way I am. The way I do it, it is tight, with their arm held in very securely against my body, so the issues you're talking about don't come up. In fact, they are some of the strongest aspects of it. Knees to the face simply aren't possible from that angle and distance, there simply isn't room.
When it comes to the issues of versatility, I've recommended what I feel and believe is the best, most low-risk, high-return method there is. But nowhere have I even suggested a lack of versatility, in fact, it's built in to the entire method we use. And, again, I believe that there are not the issues that you believe you are side-stepping, nor that your approach is safer. That said, I think we're just going to go round in circles with this.
Yes, I get all of that... what I have meant is that the grip in the first place is not guaranteed, especially against the aforementioned "sewing machine" attack.
Sparring is very removed from actual combat. That's an old discussion, though, but I prefer simulation exercises to sparring.
I think they both have their place, honestly, with drilling being the way you learn the methods themselves. Sparring has benefits, depending on the results desired, but I don't see it as having much relationship to reality at all, for a range of reasons. Again, they are all covered elsewhere, and most likely I am employing the term in a more specific way than you may be.
Out of interest, then, why did you link the second clip of yourself when discussing the value of sparring as you use the term if neither video actually showed it?
With Floyd's clip, I don't think any of that could be mistaken for sparring, as there wasn't any. And if that's the way you drill knife defence, it's a great skill builder, but not realistic. The two are separate.
Yeah, I recognise that that's the reality, my point was more that you were putting the Krav clip up as an example of how safely and successfully they applied similar methods to yours, although I didn't see the grip you use being applied there at all.
I agree that it's not reality, but then again, I don't think that's the point. It comes across to me as a demonstration of the curriculum, which would be the IP methods, yeah?
Yeah, which is why I'm a big fan of simulation training over sparring. Even that, though, isn't quite it, but it's as close as you can get.
Outperforming implies "beating" someone, surviving and escaping can be very different. In each of the cases you mention, if you start with the mindset of "beating" them, you're behind the ball to begin with, as you've just removed yourself from the reality of the situation and the actual options, including what is realistically available to you. So I'd still say there is no aspect of "outperforming" present there, or if there is, it shouldn't be.
None of which negates having a higher return lower risk approach in the first place. But again, we're just going round in circles here.
I think we disagree on what sparring is, then. To me, sparring is a training exercise where two combatants attempt to "beat", or "outperform" their opponents; you simultaneously attack and defend, with an emphasis typically on the attacking side of things, and there is no attempt made to escape the situation, or any other realistic simulation of an actual self defence encounter. Scenario training, such as the SEALs training mentioned, is not sparring. I might suggest that the "ardent champions of RBSD" that you are referring to (with the caveat that your description is not the main as I have seen, including when I have trained under a number of them) are not the athletically endowed persons that you may expect because that is not the reality of actual violence. But I've never heard any of them describe a street predator or attacker as such a nightmare, either.
In terms of my saying that nothing I have learnt functionally coming out of sparring, that is completely true. Sparring has been a big part of my training background (in TKD, karate, some BJJ, some boxing, and more), but as it is divorced from reality, the benefits are not what I would class as "functional" lessons. Those lessons have come to me far more from drilling, adrenaline based drills, and scenario training.
Ha, Rickson? No. Royce, yes, though. Does that count? Intensity has nothing to do with my definition of sparring, really. And I might suggest not suggesting what might "improve" my abilities within any area unless you are sure of what my level currently is. Especially when it comes to weapons, as that is something that I spend much of my time dealing in, in a wide variety of ways. And I can see none of it improving by unrealistic training methods, frankly.
Well, sparring is as I said above; scenario training and high level drilling (including adrenaline drilling) is where I develop my functional skills... as they are training me to apply the skills functionally in the situation that I might need to use them in. Sparring is a different environment, with different skills being required for success, hence it not being a functional training method for my needs. And don't get me wrong, I was actually pretty good at sparring within the systems I've trained in, I just don't have a use for it with my current approach to training.
But to specifics.... the best I can offer are the scenario drills, really. For example, there is the "wall" drill, where you have your eyes closed, and are suddenly shoved back into a wall, you open your eyes, and have to fend off an attack, or attack back, or escape (depending on the drill). It is also done side-on to the wall, or facing the wall. That gets you used to a sudden adrenal surge (rather than it being an already present aspect), as well as handling the chaos of a real encounter, and removing the issues of trying to "beat", or outperform someone. It's not sparring, but is a free-responce training method. And the skills I got out of that (handling adrenaline, handling an incoming barrage, etc) are highly functional, and were not gained from anything like sparring.
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Hey Chris,
Only 2 segments of this pertain to me, so I'll answer those first, and toss in my .02 on the other, later.
Yes, to answer the first question....yes, you're correct, it is a demo of some of Kenpos knife techniques. However, my point was simply....that is all you ever see...is demos....compliant demos. I'd like to see some of these same techs. done with a bit more....pressure.
In other words....show the tech. Show the ins and outs, how it works, all the fine points, etc. Then gradually build up the speed and resistance. When I teach a tech., this is what I do. I want people to see it slow as well as fast. When it comes time to demo the fast, I want my uke to really attack me. If we're doing punch defense, then I want them to really try to hit me. Its funny because many times, I have to stop and tell them to go harder....its ok....I'm taking full responsibility for whatever happens to me. As for the 2nd part....yes, we're in agreement.
Personally, I like the scenario drills. IMO, it takes it yet one step further than just working the techs, in a back and forth fashion, even if the person if really trying to punch, stab, etc. As for the method of dealing with the knife and grabbing....well, for me, gaining control...solid control, is of utmost importance...even moreso, IMO, than working a disarm...at that given moment. You can know a million disarms, but if you're not gaining control of the weapon, those disarms go out the window. Personally, I like Karl Tanswells method. We've seen the same in the DLO clips from the Dog Bros.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Nice. I also kinda like the way both clips feature almost exclusively the grip I'm talking about....
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I just saw this response of yours,man. For some reason I'm not getting the email prompts for responses to this thread,and I've been quite busy of late. I will most definitely respond much more in depth in the next few days as time allows,but I want to say a couple of things right quick:
1) When I opined that your self-defense skills grappling skills would increase if you rolled with Rickson Gracie,I offered that opinion because Rickson is widely renowned as either thee greatest combo of GJJ warrior and teacher ever or in the top 2.It's no insult to realize that your and my and anyone else's (pretty much) self defense grappling skill would experience a dramatic spike were we to train with Rickson. Training with Royce is quite good and impressive too...but it also makes my point. I would go out on a limb and say that you never had Royce in any real jeopardy while grappling with him...and Royce has famously stated numerous times that Rickson is "ten times better than me". Therefore, your grappling self-defense skills would increase dramatically were you to roll with and learn from Rickson.
2) I'm not in any way denigrating your weapons skills.
3) In the area in my video that you denigrate as a leap that would get me gutted by you and your friends? Not happening,lol. If you attacked me as my friend Jabari attacked me,I would elude you too. If you attacked me differently,I'd react differently...and very likely still elude you. I possess world class speed and reflex time. I will be putting up the videos proving it soon enough. I'm not bragging about this...it's true.I've been clocked at 4.35 in the 40,and in the middle 40's in the 400 meters.I routinely come in at the low 4.4's in the 40 and upper 40's in the 400 m. I'll put the film up.I'll also show me performing C.O.G. drills showing the speed of my lateral jumps and movements.I can perform nearly 90 multidirectional jumps in 30 seconds...and I have video of me doing 60 of them in 22 seconds.With ease. Unless you are possessed of like reflex quickness,I'd shake you like a earthquake.Lol. Again,no insult meant man. No disrespect at all.In addition,Jabari DID NOT WAIT FOR ME AT ALL. Lol. Immediately after I eluded his attack,I attacked him.
4) Much of what you call drills/scenario/adrenaline stuff,I call sparring. Everything that you've used that isn't full on fight for your life type stuff? That's sparring to me...training exercises with live fire weaponry and extractions etcetera is simply sparring with weapons and tactical scenarios to me. So I'm glad that we worked that out,as I suspected that this was the case.
5) I suspect that we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the grip that I and many others in high end SD employ,but that's a good thing...diversity can be VERY GOOD. I would very much,however,like to see you perform your techs on video. I'd like to see you elude a completely unscripted attack like I did. I have a great deal of confidence in my ability to do so,as I've done it against pretty much everyone. I even avoided the first two cuts of an iaido sensei...before being "slashed in half" by the third attack.Lol.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I seem to recall that the primary thrust behind the FOUNDERS of various style was FUNCTIONAL INNOVATION. Kyokushin,goju-ryu,isshin-ryu,taekkyon,muay boran,chuan fa,capoeira,riesy,boxing...all martial arts...were founded on the mandatory premise of functional survival.All secondary considerations (personal refinement,spiritual enlightenment,etc.) come AFTER you keep yourself alive and for the most part safe and sound. If any martial art failed its combat test? Its adherents would be dead now and the art would've died a loong time ago with the creators the first time they tried their nonfunctional mess in a live or die,fight or flight throwdown. So alll martial arts that get a bad rap combatively...tai chi,capoeira,aikido,taekwondo,etc etc...have proven themselves in arenas of barbarous battle that most of us are blessed to never have to see.Their practitioners could do lots of things,but first and foremost they could functionally fight their kiesters off. During the passage of time,the combat effectiveness was largely lost or glossed over by THE SUCCESSORS of the Master.Not the Master and the Master's closest students.Therefore,returning to functionality in every area...forms,fighting,teaching,training,weapons,physical conditioning,character building,diet and nutrition,academic spiritual and philosophical studies,etc...is a RETURN to WHAT THE FOUNDERS OF OUR ARTS THEMSELVES DID AND PROMOTED.
I confess that I utterly,completely fail to see how bringing this historical fact up could paint me as being full of myself or anything like that. Recall...Bruce Lee and Ed Parker,Mestre Bimba,the African arts which migrated to India which became mavya and spawned the root of the all the arts prefixed by the word "Muay"...as in "Muay Boran/Thai" etc...all of these men and women who innovated and functionalized in some sense upset the apple cart by innovating and functionalizing training methodologies which lead to a change in martial technical expression and selection.But since they worked? Everybody takes them for granted. I say that it's all of our duty to continue in their footsteps.If we respect,understand and even revere our predecessors...how could we not continue to innovate? I mean in the case of Mestre Bimba,Ed Parker and Bruce Lee...THEY SPECIFICALLY TOLD US TO KEEP EVOLVING. So let's evolve. By following the TRUE traditionalism which our predecessors teachers and forebears gave us...FUNCTIONAL INNOVATION. Outro.
This grip is, IMO, easy to transition to, even if the initial grip is 2 handed, from the front. It 'marries' the arm to your body, giving you more control.
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I absolutely agree and made that very point myself. I like the grip tht Chris Parker champions and I use it myself. We just differ visavis entry,and like I stated in my earlier posts...and the S.T.A.B. videos seem to bear out...this hold is a more effective ENTRY when people of equivalent size reach and generally the same gender are scrappin. It works whether it's an entry or not,but it's MORE EFFECTIVE when the size are equivalent. When there is a significant strength,size,surprise,weight,etc. disparity? The 2 handed grip that I recommend is more functional in that it gives you options that the grip that Chris Parker recommends doesn't. But because I also include the grip that Chris recommends and he DOESN'T include the grip that I recommend? My approach seems to be clearly the more versatile.Basically I'm combining them together in a single flow...hard and soft,yin and yang as it were...and Chris doesn't seem to recommend that.Or more to the point,it seems that Chris believes that the grip shown alot in S.T.A.B. is the safest and best approach given the circumstances.However,my approach allows you to deal with all the basic matters at hand because it allows you to flow and adjust. You don't really get hit while you're seizing one limb or whatever.Note the following situation:
FIGHTING VS KNIFE FROM THE GUARD
ENTERING HARD VS SHOCK KNIFE
aaaaannnd use the S.T.A.B. methods too. I'm not saying USE ONLY MY VERSION OF THE 2 ON 1 GRIP,I'm saying...USE MY METHOD PLUS WHAT CHRIS PARKER SUGGESTS,AS MY METHOD ENCOMPASSES THEM BOTH. Which...imo...very clearly makes the argument for versatility viability and functionality in the real world.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Not a problem, things have gotten away from me a bit as well.
Look, I'll be frank and say that I'm not really in a good mood, so take this as it is (blunt, really).
I have never seen anything in any BJJ class/seminar/video/demonstration or anything similar that I would equate anywhere near actual self defence. At all. From anyone. Royce's class was supposed to be basically entirely focused on it, and was so fundamentally flawed in the design of the techniques and the structure of the class that, when asked if I was sticking around for a photo with him, I said that I didn't have any need to claim I was there. I got more out of how to not structure a class than anything else that day. So while I take your point that my BJJ grappling skills and groundwork would improve, that to me is so far removed from saying my "grappling self defence skills" would improve that you might as well say that playing tennis with Pete Sampras would dramatically increase my playing of volleyball.
So while I couldn't outgrapple Royce (never thought I could), that's nothing to do with self defence. For the record, I don't count it as an insult, but I do constantly marvel at the way people confuse self defence with these specialist competitive systems and their approaches. To get better at self defence, the first thing is education, then drilling in a realistic scenario based fashion, not sparring, not rolling, not anything that contradicts the basic precepts of self defence. Two completely different realms.
Thanks, didn't think you were though. My point was more to do with the fact that your attacker was not acting or moving like a knifeman, and that seemed to give you a false sense of safety in some of the things you were doing.
I don't denigrate it, I state what I see as flaws in your execution of it. And yes, if I attacked the way that Jabari did, you'd get away. But that's the thing - I wouldn't. I'd attack you like someone wanting to push a knife through you.
When it comes to your "world class speed", I'm again going to say that, if this is a method you are using to teach, what you can do isn't really relevant (or responsible for you to rely on when giving others potentially life-saving skill sets), it's about what you can impart to your students. As I've said, your grip can be good, and you may be able to get it to work a lot of the time, but it's still rather risky, relies on strength to a higher degree, doesn't get you out of range of the knife, and more, so when putting something together for students, look to what they can learn, not what you can do.
Honestly, though, I think this is just going to go round in circles, you saying "I'm just that damn fast", and me saying "no, you're not". I will say that the string of numbers there doesn't impress me much... mainly because I have no idea what you're referring to for most of them. But speed is far from the only criteria in this instance, and in fact, isn't one that I was focusing on. It was more your angle, height, and range.
Yeah, gotta say that confused me. Do you make no distinction at all? I gotta say, you may want to look at the term sparring being a little more specific in communication here, it may help avoid these confusions in the future... I mean, would you consider a kata "sparring"? Even the two-person ones as found in traditional Japanese systems? They're not "fight for your life", after all... although, in a way, they are.
Too much diversity can be bad, though (not that that's entirely the case here, although it does play into it... but I'll come back to that). Against an "Iaido sensei", hmm? Not sure of the relevance, but I'd be pretty sure that there's a few details that would allow evading the first couple, and again, not hugely impressive, as all it sounds like is a lack of understanding of the different environments. As to me on video, no, I won't be putting anything out there for a few reasons. I am curious as to who these other "high end SD" people are that employ your grip... pretty much all of the videos, especially those that I'd consider have some clue, may use it briefly, or as a desperation method, but they tend to prefer the one I use.
The catch is, though, your method is a desperation method, whereas mine is based on complete control of the weapon and weapon hand immediately. So I'd say train mine, and maybe have yours as a fallback. Frankly, yours is not more functional, for a huge number of reasons, mainly stemming from how easy it is to get it very wrong, and thereby increasing the risk for performing it as a primary action. Yours is not the more versatile by a long shot, honestly, it leaves you trapped, with the only release immediately giving control of the weapon back to the knifeman, with you still in perfect range to be killed. I know this comes down to a disagreement in methods that could really only be solved with us both in the same room to test each other out, but that's the reality of your method as I see it and as you demonstrate it.
When it comes to the videos you posted, the first one is honestly terrible. He's going to get stabbed many times over, really. The grip he's using (against his leg) has the knifeman's arm far more functionally powerful than Burton's is, which means he's more likely to lose control of it. It's also kept in a position where the knife is stronger than the controlling grip, and keeps moving to his body, but out and not controlled. His partner is going along with what the teacher (Burton) is doing, but I have real doubts about the reliability of the shown method. The second one shows a desperation lunge (where he gets cut), rather than a more tactical use of angling and distancing. Honestly, it just shows the weaknesses of the grip you're talking about. Other than that, the strips in both leave a lot to be desired, especially in the first, as he's slicing up the inside of his own hand, which will make the strip that much harder to do (I'm with the idea of needing to sacrifice a body part to save your life, but this method sacrifices a body part to lose control, not a good idea). The second one just takes far too long, again I'm not seeing anything I'd rely on.
And that takes me to why I wouldn't suggest training that grip. I don't want to reinforce it as a powerful, go-to movement. I don't want to give my unconscious responce that option unless absolutely necessary. By training two methods as separate methods, you are basically giving your unconscious a choice, and hoping it makes the right one. I'd rather have a few expressions of a principle, so that that principle is the only option to choose from. Diversity can be damn dangerous in a real life or death situation, as it can lead you to a poor decision/action, or to hesitation, as you try to figure out what you should do.
You may want to rethink your history, then. The closest you may get to would be drilling and training methods that are geared towards functional innovation would be in sporting methods. It was rarely in the other forms of martial arts, honestly. In fact, in a lot of traditional forms, the reasons would often be to express an idea getting away from the idea of killing. Add to that the fact that martial arts are, in a very real way, not about self defence, or even combative excellence in a number of ways, that is more a happy byproduct in some cases (not all...). Oh, and you're bringing Taekkyon into a martial history discussion? Chuan Fa? That's just a generic term meaning "fist method", not an actual martial art itself. And as far as boxing is concerned, the modern form traces itself to the Marquis of Queensbury Rules, late 19th Century, and it removed a lot of the "functionally powerful" methods from earlier forms (as did Judo, and then BJJ, by the way...).
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ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I think "blunt" is good...and I am sorry you're in somewhat of a foul mood today.With that being said? Allow me a similarly direct reply:
The moment you said that you saw nothing of value in Royce's or by extension Rickson's grappling skills visavis self-defense and said that they're wholly removed in essence from actual self-defense? You made your position absolutely clear. Because your position is wholly the opposite of people like military specialists and warriors and special operatives in law enforcement in others the world over.Clearly,you have a position that is directly contrary to the U.S. Border Patrol,Special Forces, Delta and Navy Seal Operators and uniformed personnel in every branch of our military: US Army, US Air Force, US Marine Corps and US Coast Guard. In January 2002, the U.S. Army officially adopted Gracie Jiu-Jitsu as its foundation for hand-to-hand combat with the publication of a manual based almost entirely on the original program designed by Rorion Gracie.
http://gracieacademy.com/military.asp
So Chris,your opinion differs from some of the most lethal and experienced and seasoned real world practitioners of the very same SD and faaaarrr worse SD than you will ever eeeever face in your life.But the great thing is that not only can your opinion differ from theirs? That's your RIGHT and I respect your right to do so.Whether your opinion has a more airtight combat foundation or whether its anywhere near as valid under the circumstances that these elite warriors and law enforcement units find themselves operating and facing real intense issues is another matter entirely.
Your grasp of martial arts history is similarly suspect. Every army the world over practiced martial arts. The SPIRITUAL AND PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT ASPECTS became more pronounced with civilian martial arts training,aaaannnd the desire of various governments to remain in power conflicting with (at times) various civilian or nongovernmental groups wishing to maintain their liberty also profoundly affected the nongovernmental martial arts. I strongly suspect that the capoeiristas who defied Brazil and Portugal to such an extent that the Portuguese government entered negotiations with them about rewarding them specific autonomy similar to what the Native Americans and Amish (to a lesser degree) enjoy here in the USA would find your contentions laughable.The Shaolin Monastery warriors might find a guffaw or five to be had from your position too. The mavya--(who are the Indians who inherited some African martial arts once they travelled from Africa to India)--who are the "boxers" who gave rise to the word "mavya" which in turn is the ancient root for the word Muay (as in Muay Boran,Muay Thai,etc) along with the Muay Boran and Krabi Kabong warriors might find themselves joining in to chortle.The moro moros who came from many regions including India to what is now the Phillipines,combined their martial arts into what later became known as Kali might join in for a knee slapping yukk or two.
Martial arts came from war.The martial arts survived because they worked in war.They went through various refinements and sometimes were tragically lost as they entered the civilian realm...but all of them work for self defense.And all of them had to refine,develope,and adapt--that is to say functionally innovate--in order to be crafted in the first place and survive until the present day.Furthermore,your definition of chuan fa is faulty. chaun fa literally means MOUNTAIN FIST,and WUSHU means MILITARY ART or its rough equivalent.And to be clear? "fist method" is ALSO a MARTIAL ART. While we're on the subject,as far as boxing is concerned? I think that the Greeks and ancient Africans would have a word or two to say about that.
It seems as if you're making the classic mistake that many of the most ardent practitioners of what they think is RBSD make: they conflate athletic attributes with sport performance.They seem to be wholly unaware of the overwhelming fact and thousands of years of legendary history proclaiming the overwhelming imminence of high performance self-defense athletics. Whic segues into the following point: yes I know that my athletic ability oftentimes isn't something that my students share.I don't train them assuming that their clones of me.My response to you was more specific: you indicated that you would have succeeded in knifing me. I doubt that you would do such a thing,as I doubt that you have the experience skill and attributes to pull it off against me as most people don't have the requisite mix.That again is not arrogance on my part,as I could be wrong...but based upon what you just posted? Your (imo) horriffic misassessment of the Gracie's self-defense skill? Your highly flawed recollection of martial history? I gain confidence in my previous assessment being accurate.Btw,the speeds I gave are Olympic calibur elite and the fact that you've never been on the receiving end of an iaido sensei's draw speaks soooo many volumes about what you've NOT faced that I won't get into it.Suffice it to say that you've done soooo much damage to your previous contentions that now your position would have to be infinitely more sturdy than it currently is to UPGRADE to the condition of post-atomic Nagasaki.
Regarding the grip...which to me is the main point...we partially agree. Basically you say that we should always enter with your recommended method. I disagree but I strongly agree that the variant that you propose is highly functional and desirable,as I use it myself.I don't think that my method is a desperation method and those persons who utilize my method--something which you acknowledge that you don't do--also agree.Recall...for clarity's sake...that my method encompasses yours,not the other way around. I have,in essence,twice the arsenal that you do and the videos that I've shown prove beyond a doubt that the approach works. Now you may not PREFER my approach,but IT'S FUNCTIONALITY is BEYOND DISPUTE. The special units,the highly skilled specialized practitioners,etc. use it daily against top flight full tilt boogie resistance...which is true and cool to say,but my own experience with it wholly guts your position.And since you don't use my method (which let us not forget also encompasses yours)? You're not in a position to offer from experience what it does and doesn't do; you offer an opinion which isn't girded by mat or street experience or both,whereas mine has all of them.And that's cool man. We can agree to disagree on that point and still be amicable towards one another. BUT...and here's a big "but"...I think that a person who has positions as strongly and articulately held as yours should be able to step up to the plate as it were and put his knife skills where his mouth (er,POSTS) are and show us the real deal. Or at least YOUR real deal.You're able to make direct empirical statements about my movements and draw opinions and inferences--however much I may agree or disagree with them,however much they may vary from or be in accordance with reality---because I put myself out there to be seen.Frankly I have the skill will resources and nuts to step up. When making points as insistent as yours are,sir,it would be much to your and our benefit for you to step up like I did. Put your knife where your mouth is. For instance...my position is that one of the major reasons to NOT do as you recommend in the way that you recommend is that you wholly ignore the almost 100% certainty that you'll get knocked and clocked by the other limb.In the S.T.A.B. video,this reality is repeatedly shown. My version provides a plethora of easy go-to (flow to) techs that happen organically very quickly and very effectively--including the one and only method that you champion--addresses the attacker(s) other limbs and deals with them. Have you fought a guy with a bottle,disarmed him,dealt with him,had his buddy rush you,dealt with him,and then dealt with his other homeboy who was rockin a bottle,disarmed him--only to have him pull a knife in the midst of you disarming his bottle? I have? I've had the same experience with an inebriated WOMAN. She took a swing with her bottle,I disarm her...ZING. Out comes the knife.And women tend to SLASH not STAB.Your inflexible method would get me you and others hurt and/or killed under those circumstance if we did as you recommended.Imo at any rate.My techs "win" under those circumstances,that's why I'm still here to post about it.
You're right...there are a ton of variables, and everyone will have his/her preferences. One thing that I've only seen in the STAB clip, unless I missed it in the others, is that if we look at the shock knife clip, the guy with the knife did nothing other than struggle for the knife, when Richard grabbed him. IMO, thats foolish, as the outcome will usually be determined by who's stronger. What was wrong with his other hand? Why wasn't he striking? This is something that we really dont see in alot of the knife defenses. We did see it in the STAB one though.
I'm not against the 2 hand grip in front. I've done it myself. Fairly easy to transistion into some good locks, as well as redirecting the blade back into the guy.
You're also in a good position to fire off some kicks. As for whats more effective....I suggested the STAB clip as my preference, due to the fact that we're marrying the guys arm to us, thus giving us our entire body against his 1 arm, instead of just relying on our hands. I prefer that one more, also because unless we do something right away, again, the other guy, if he's smart, will most likely use his other hand. Of course, its also important to take into consideration body size of the attacker and defender.
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Agreed. While I am a fan of people having some grappling in their toolbox, IMO, it needs to be adapted to street circumstances, not sport. Yes, I'm sure this will piss someone off, but thats not my intent. As I've said before, for *myself* I'll work the ground stuff in a fashion that it doesnt prolong my time on the ground, any more than necessary.
Yup, this is kinda where I was going with what I said in my post. I dont want to assume that I'm going to be quick or that the guy with the knife will be some skinny punk, who weighs 110lbs wet. He could be some 6'5, 330lb mass of muscle.
And as I've said many times myself, IMHO, when it comes to weapons, be it a stick, knife or gun, control of the weapon hand is first and foremost! You could know hundreds of disarms, but they're going out the window, until you get solid control.
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