slashing knife attacks

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Great points James! I think for the most part, we're on the same page, but perhaps there is some confusion in the wording. We all know how easy it is to get confused on these forums. LOL!

I certainly realize that getting cut is going to happen. Any confrontation is going to be unpredictable, so that being said, we just need to do the best we can, and hope for the best.

Looking over some of the latest threads on the knife over on KT, I see a mixed bag of posts, with some saying the techs. will work and some saying they wont. Interesting reading to say the least.

While some, myself included, have not faced a real blade, I'm sure that there are many of us out there that have not faced a good portion of the attacks that we see in Kenpo. I doubt that everyone here has been on the receiving end of a loaded gun, but we still teach techs. to defend the gun and all we can do is hope that our training brings us out on top.

Mike

Some of the stuff in techniques (particularly the form version) has to be there to make people think. Example. In Entwined Lance we pivot into a twist stance as the knife is coming in........anybody want to try that twist with a live blade? I guarantee that the loss of lateral movement will be more than detrimental. Alot of the techniques are taught the same way they are done in the forms but they aren't meant to be that way. There are some inconsistences and tactical errors present if you do them that way. but some people would rather do what they were told rather than apply.....what's that thing called...ummmm...oh yeah COMMON SENSE LOL.

 

[Sigung86]

Hi Dan,

Out of curiosity, since you posted this question, I'd be interested in hearing your answer to this question. Its always nice to get feedback from people that have experienced something first hand.

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Sorry to be so late getting back to you. It's been a truly long day. Several times successfully, and once not so successfully.

The reason I was asking is that, regardless of practice, time spent on the mats, etc. etc. Regardless of your level of proficiency in the techniques that you have been taught, there is a definite psychological difference when you are faced with the "Cold Steel".

I hate to sound like an elitist, and probably will take heat for this from someone, but I think I would rather take the opinion of someone who has, actually, been there and rode the tiger rather than someone who has tons and scads of book-learnin'. I mean that, in no way, as an insult to anyone. However, it is a far cry to face possible death in the reality than in the academic.

BTW... The one time I wasn't successful was in 1993. One of my own students got me, basically through my own inattention to detail and familiarity breeding contempt, as it were.

Here, in Missouri, in 93, we had some horrible floods down around St. Louis and the surrounding counties. We, my students and I, went to a place called Marthasville. We were putting on a demonstration at the local civic center, the proceeds of which were going to the flood relief effort. We pretty well packed the house.

We were doing a particular knife defense that my senior Black and I had done a thousand times. This time, however, the only knife that we had thought to bring was a Hibben Rambo III... A big sucker with a reeeaaallly sharp blade. We didn't bother to practice, or scope the environment very well. We were, in fact, doing the demonstration in a wrestling ring and they are excessively springy for all the high throws, etc that are done.

My student charged at me ... I did the defense ... We both bounced n the middle of the ring, simultaneously ... My hand was in position to catch the wrist ... We came down on the flooring ... He was considerably heavier than I ... He bounced a bit higher, and came down a bit slower ... He cut off the distal 3rd of my right social finger (middle finger :ultracool ). My wife, then girlfriend said later, I knew something was wrong, because it went into live action speed. I had, without realizing what was going on, gone into live mode. Even with the finger cut off (along with some of the bone), I took my student down, disarmed him, and stopped the hammerfist to his heart, but just barely. It went from a well oiled, very practiced defense technique, to a live fire reaction and I almost killed him. As it was, I pulled up shy and didn't hit him full on. However, as he laid there, and we commiserated over my lost finger, his eyes were very glazed, and he was having trouble making coherent conversation. :rofl:

The only reason I really know so much detail is that I still have the video tape. Joey, my wife, can't watch it. I have only viewed it a few times, and then, I always scream... Dammit Dan!!!! Don't dooo iiiitttt !!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My wife calls me chameleon, however. Over the course of several months I regrew the part of the finger that was cut off and discarded at the emergency room.

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike,

Sorry to be so late getting back to you. It's been a truly long day. Several times successfully, and once not so successfully.

The reason I was asking is that, regardless of practice, time spent on the mats, etc. etc. Regardless of your level of proficiency in the techniques that you have been taught, there is a definite psychological difference when you are faced with the "Cold Steel".

I hate to sound like an elitist, and probably will take heat for this from someone, but I think I would rather take the opinion of someone who has, actually, been there and rode the tiger rather than someone who has tons and scads of book-learnin'. I mean that, in no way, as an insult to anyone. However, it is a far cry to face possible death in the reality than in the academic.

BTW... The one time I wasn't successful was in 1993. One of my own students got me, basically through my own inattention to detail and familiarity breeding contempt, as it were.

Here, in Missouri, in 93, we had some horrible floods down around St. Louis and the surrounding counties. We, my students and I, went to a place called Marthasville. We were putting on a demonstration at the local civic center, the proceeds of which were going to the flood relief effort. We pretty well packed the house.

We were doing a particular knife defense that my senior Black and I had done a thousand times. This time, however, the only knife that we had thought to bring was a Hibben Rambo III... A big sucker with a reeeaaallly sharp blade. We didn't bother to practice, or scope the environment very well. We were, in fact, doing the demonstration in a wrestling ring and they are excessively springy for all the high throws, etc that are done.

My student charged at me ... I did the defense ... We both bounced n the middle of the ring, simultaneously ... My hand was in position to catch the wrist ... We came down on the flooring ... He was considerably heavier than I ... He bounced a bit higher, and came down a bit slower ... He cut off the distal 3rd of my right social finger (middle finger :ultracool ). My wife, then girlfriend said later, I knew something was wrong, because it went into live action speed. I had, without realizing what was going on, gone into live mode. Even with the finger cut off (along with some of the bone), I took my student down, disarmed him, and stopped the hammerfist to his heart, but just barely. It went from a well oiled, very practiced defense technique, to a live fire reaction and I almost killed him. As it was, I pulled up shy and didn't hit him full on. However, as he laid there, and we commiserated over my lost finger, his eyes were very glazed, and he was having trouble making coherent conversation. :rofl:

The only reason I really know so much detail is that I still have the video tape. Joey, my wife, can't watch it. I have only viewed it a few times, and then, I always scream... Dammit Dan!!!! Don't dooo iiiitttt !!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

My wife calls me chameleon, however. Over the course of several months I regrew the part of the finger that was cut off and discarded at the emergency room.

Dan,

Thanks for the reply! No offense taken with anything said either. Yes, there certainly will be a difference between drilling and the real deal. Basically, short of taking a real knife and training our disarms, we can use a training blade and even if we put paint, lipstick, etc., on the edge to simulate the cut, we're in essence, not going to die if we make a mistake. I guess where I was going with this, was using the same concept Peyton Quinn uses with the adrenal stress conditioning. While his attackers are not going to kill the students, the idea is to put them into the mindframe that their life really is in danger. Yelling, pushing, swearing, etc., to hopefully trick the mind into thinking its a real attack. While I don't put anything on my training blade, my inst. is always doing his best to give me a live attack. Is it the same as a real blade? No, for the reasons I mentioned, but I guess its better than nothing.

BTW, sounds like that demo. turned out to be pretty intense!!

Thanks again for the reply!:ultracool

Mike

 

[bujuts]

Some of the stuff in techniques (particularly the form version) has to be there to make people think. Example. In Entwined Lance we pivot into a twist stance as the knife is coming in........anybody want to try that twist with a live blade? I guarantee that the loss of lateral movement will be more than detrimental. ...

That depends on how the twist stance is used. Many use the twist stance as a maneuver of rotation alone. Its a spinoff topic, but for a number of reasons I won't go into on this particular thread, I'd do so, but based on what I understand of the Twist Stance as taught to me. But using the Twist Stance of so many EPAK'ers - with the center of mass behind the front foot or, worse, the rear knee into the front calf - then my answer would be unequivacably no. Again, different thread, but for my twist stance my answer is "yes". I'll do more than try it, I'll make it work, for contained with in it is the bread and butter of my kenpo.

Salute.

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

That depends on how the twist stance is used. Many use the twist stance as a maneuver of rotation alone. Its a spinoff topic, but for a number of reasons I won't go into on this particular thread, I'd do so, but based on what I understand of the Twist Stance as taught to me. But using the Twist Stance of so many EPAK'ers - with the center of mass behind the front foot or, worse, the rear knee into the front calf - then my answer would be unequivacably no. Again, different thread, but for my twist stance my answer is "yes". I'll do more than try it, I'll make it work, for contained with in it is the bread and butter of my kenpo.

Salute.

Steven Brown
UKF

Mr. Brown you continually amaze me with the frequency of which you hit the nail on the head with that Thundering Hammer. This is exactly what I was thinking about...

 

[arnisador]

The Femoral artery likewise is deep, armored from behind and not readily available to a slicing withdrawing knife.

I know of techniques to target the femoral artery on the way out from the FMAs and Indonesian MAs but to be frank I've always questioned their effectiveness. You'd need a big knife. The theory is to catch the artery between your knife being drawn and pressed on the one side and the femur on the other. Again, I am suspicious of the effectiveness of this approach (my art doesn't have it). A stab is a different matter (e.g, this famous case).

I'm no expert on this but the only slicing death I've seen was to the throat. The other knife deaths I've seen all involved stabbing. This would be different if we were discussing swords which can cleave much more deeply. Don't get me wrong, the arm slice will hurt badly but it will also make you slippery and a more difficult target.

It's true that you can survive a fair amount of slashing. You'll hear of someone being slashed 43 times and living but not of someone being stabbed 12 times and living. But I strongly disagree that the slash to the arm will "make you slippery and a more difficult target". The slash to the arm is all the distraction the knifer needs to get into a more deadly target. Work your way in: Hand, arm, body. Slash, slash, stab. This is a standard strategy. People begin by using the arms to shield the body. After a few cuts they subconsciously start using the body to protect the injured arms (or at least they drop the arms). For a knifer--and this includes street knifers, not just trained fighters (e.g., look at some Piper clips)--a distracting hit to the arm or leg is a very common "defang the snake" type of entry if the opponent is unarmed.

The comment about feinting is quite relevant here.

 

[BLACK LION]

simplicity = survival

*a knife is not a weapon nor a gun or impact object.... they are all tools.

the body or person wielding the tool is the the weapon coupled with thier brain....
thier brain is what makes the knife or whatever tool, dangerous or deadly.
the body id the driving force.

why concentrate on the knife.... why try to defend against it or disarm it when the knifes has no intent and infact inanimate without someone or something holding it....

take out whats holding the knife not by punching or kicking or grappling but by injuring them with violence... you want spinal reflex....you need to always be causing effects in your attacker from the start.... not out of defense.... a knife defense is 12 slashes or superficial wounds to the limbs and a fatal would to the throat.... thats what defense will get you

rotation/penetration/injury is all you need against any armed attacker multiple or singular

 

[arnisador]

*a knife is not a weapon

The law disagrees...and as a Filipino martial artist I can assure you that when I'm holding a knife, it's a weapon.

I'm not sure what people have against weapons, but you can bet the military isn't sending people to the desert with only "tools". Yes a knife is and can be a tool, but it can also be used to kill a person--that's a weapon.

rotation/penetration/injury is all you need against any armed attacker multiple or singular

Somehow I don't think it's quite that simple.

 

[Skpotamus]

The law disagrees...and as a Filipino martial artist I can assure you that when I'm holding a knife, it's a weapon.

I'm not sure what people have against weapons, but you can bet the military isn't sending people to the desert with only "tools". Yes a knife is and can be a tool, but it can also be used to kill a person--that's a weapon.

Actually, the term "weapon" implies intent in a lot of cases. Saying you used a "tool to defend yourself" vs a "weapon to defend yourself" can make a difference in how you're treated after a SD situation by police, prosecutors and lawyers. A lot of legal issues that occur after you survive an assault can be affected simply by how you articulate your actions and the reasons why they were justified.

Prime Example: The ILEA changed the wording in their defensive tactics manuals and training from "shoulder pin neck restraint" to "shoulder pin restraint" (it's an arm triangle btw). The reasoning was lawyers were using the "neck" portion of it to attack the restraint methods police were using on resisting subjects by saying that they were specifically targeting areas that could cause serious damage in cases it wasn't warranted. The removal of the word neck got that argument put down.

They also changed the wording in their manuals from lethal force to deadly force since Lethal force isn't listed in the Indiana Code anywhere. A lawyer used it to attack the training credentials of an instructor for using the term lethal force.

Kind of a silly nitpicky thing, but it can be a real issue nonetheless.

I pasted the actual Indiana code below.

IC 35-41-1-8
"Deadly weapon" defined
Sec. 8. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), "deadly weapon" means the following:
(1) A loaded or unloaded firearm.
(2) A destructive device, weapon, device, taser (as defined in IC 35-47-8-3) or electronic stun weapon (as defined in IC 35-47-8-1), equipment, chemical substance, or other material that in the manner it is used, or could ordinarily be used, or is intended to be used, is readily capable of causing serious bodily injury.
(3) An animal (as defined in IC 35-46-3-3) that is:
(A) readily capable of causing serious bodily injury; and
(B) used in the commission or attempted commission of a crime.
(4) A biological disease, virus, or organism that is capable of causing serious bodily injury.
(b) The term does not include:
(1) a taser (as defined in IC 35-47-8-3);
(2) an electronic stun weapon (as defined in IC 35-47-8-1);
(3) a chemical designed to temporarily incapacitate a person; or
(4) another device designed to temporarily incapacitate a person;
if the device described in subdivisions (1) through (4) is used by a law enforcement officer who has been trained in the use of the device and who uses the device in accordance with the law enforcement officer's training and while lawfully engaged in the execution of official duties.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.318-1985, SEC.1; P.L.140-1994, SEC.4; P.L.156-2001, SEC.8; P.L.123-2002, SEC.33; P.L.143-2006, SEC.1.

That being said, it can also be a good thing to help students get into the mindset that they can use anything to defend themselves, whether it's a knife, gun, pepper spray, roll of quarters, magazine, pop bottle, etc.

 

[BLACK LION]

a knife is a cutting tool with various uses other than killing people...
it becomes a weapon when the intent driving behind it is violence...even still, without that driving factor(human brain) it is in and of itself simply a cutting tool....
putting a knife in your trained hand doesnt make you more of anything, it only affords you the opportunity to penetrate deep into flesh in a way that ones body weapons cannot.... or to cause effect in another human that striking with the body cannot...you should be just as effective in inflicting injury with only your body....

if you are caught empty handed against the knife, assume he knows what you know.... you need to get in there and injure him.... you may get cut and you may see some blood but injuring him first is the ultimate goal... a slash is not an injury... a severed artery is.... it is your responsibility to protect and preserve your personal space... people who have a blade all have tell tell signs and most of the population is right handed and carries thier knife in common places....
if you are being stabbed then you are in trouble and its your fault... even still, injuring the opponent is the ultimate goal and only assurance you leave and they dont.... blocking and parrying and technique after technique are what is complicated...thats what will complicate the situation.... what if he is bigger and stronger....a 150 lb man cannot block a thrust from a 300 lb man eager to see meat and blood... he can only injure him repeatedly to stop the intent behind the tool which is the real weapon... his brain and central nervous system..... stop that and there is no knife.... violence is not complicated... trying to socialize with a psycho is complicated and that is exactly what you are doing if you try to duel, defend or disarm.....

 

[BLACK LION]

rotation=circular or circle-like motion through oposition (cause)
penetration= moving through opposition (cause)
injury= effect on opposition

you have to have both to get an injury

rotate body through to strike/break/move
penetrate body through to strike/ break/ move
injury is the result of these

always moving forward until the entire threat is neutralized

its pretty simply... no dancing or deuling ....get the job done so you can go home

 

[HKphooey]

A broken bottle could be a slashing weapon.