slashing knife attacks

[bujuts]

In addition the angle of the extended outward block is not terrible effective at keeping the attacker from slipping under the gaurd and bringing their point online with the abdomen.
Lamont

With a correctly done EOB, this shouldn't happen. The EOB arms you with the bracing angle which you should be using to cancel his H, W, & D as you invade his spinal ring. It depends on the footwork.

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

Steven Brown
UKF

 

[MJS]

Great thread topic!!:ultracool

I personally have never and hope to God that I am never on the receiving end of a live blade. Now, I'm no physician, but I'd think that even a slash, is still going to have some effect on us. I'm sure we've all received small cuts, and while they may not have the same effect as say a stab, I think the accumulation of slashes would add up.

Seeing that we're comparing slash defense to club defense, I thought I'd post some club defenses, courtesy of KenpoTalk, so we could have something to refer to.

Defying The Storm: Rt Step Thru Roundhouse Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with a right roundhouse club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a left extended outward handsword to your attacker's wrist simultaneous with a right inward hand sword to your attacker's biceps.

3. Grab your attacker's wrist with your left hand and your attacker's right elbow with your right arm.

4. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize torque and opposing forces. (You will push the right wrist out and the pull on the left elbow to cause them to bend forward at the waist, possibly break their elbow joint.)

5. Execute a right knee strike to your attacker's chest.

6. As you land forward with your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow, execute a right inward overhead elbow onto your attacker's upper spine.

7. Cross out.


Checking The Storm- Rt Overhead Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike.

3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick.

4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.)

5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face.

Calming The Storm: Rt Overhead Club

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with a right roundhouse club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you simultaneously execute a left extended outward block to the inside of your attacker's forearm and execute a right vertical punch to your attacker's head.

3. Execute a right palm strike to your attacker's right shoulder and frictionally slide down your attacker's arm, checking it. As you finish the slide, ending at your attacker's forearm, shift into a right forward bow facing 12 o'clock as you take advantage of torque and execute a left vertical punch to your attacker's solar plexus.

4. Shift back into a right neutral bow as you execute a right backfist to your attacker's right ribs.

5. Cross out towards 7:30 taking the weapon with you.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

With a correctly done EOB, this shouldn't happen. The EOB arms you with the bracing angle which you should be using to cancel his H, W, & D as you invade his spinal ring. It depends on the footwork.

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

Steven Brown
UKF

My exact thoughts. I tend to see many people extending an extended outward block WAY too far which 1) eliminates the bracing angle to absorb the impact and check the zones and 2) creates a complimentary angle to guide the weapon into the body, in particular the abdomen as was posted.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

My problem with the Calming/Defying/Securing group is that if the arc is shortened by the attacker it leaves the blocking arm open for a nasty full power slash. In addition the angle of the extended outward block is not terrible effective at keeping the attacker from slipping under the gaurd and bringing their point online with the abdomen.

Returning is great and would be my preferred alternative, but if we must enter centerline I would prefer to deal with the initial slash with an inward block/deflection.

Lamont

If the arc is shortened the blocking weapon is still open for a nasty slash. However the inward motion leaves the inner wrist open which is a quicker way to never being able to close that hand again due to tendon and nerve damage on the inner arm.

Also you keep mentioning "if the attacker changes the arc, or the target, or the method of execution, etc." This is why being able to read an attack and awareness is so important. It's not just with a knife it's with any attack. My background began in TKD. I've lost track of how many times I've started a front thrust kick at someone to have them attempt a kick defense (like Deflecting Hammer) only to change my mind and refire a rooundhouse kick to their face in mid-kick. End result? a nasty full power kick to the head. does that mean the block doesn't work. No, it means the attack was changed and the person didn't read and respond well enough.

This topic is great, but the problem is that the premise falls more A) on reading the attack and selecting the proper counter than B) using the proper counter.

Changing an arc falls under feinting. A proper feint changes everything, regardless of a knife being involved.

P.S. the angle you mention in the defying/securing/calming series is what I mentioned in securing, but it's not the same angle in calming or defying. Also in Defying which block is the main one? the outward, the inward, or both? Food for thought....

 

[Blindside]

If the arc is shortened the blocking weapon is still open for a nasty slash. However the inward motion leaves the inner wrist open which is a quicker way to never being able to close that hand again due to tendon and nerve damage on the inner arm.

Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.

This topic is great, but the problem is that the premise falls more A) on reading the attack and selecting the proper counter than B) using the proper counter. Changing an arc falls under feinting. A proper feint changes everything, regardless of a knife being involved.

Agreed, but some counters leave you less open to feinting. From your kick example, if the defender had left his hands high, and merely raised his knee to jam your kick they would be less vulnerable to your feint. If there are options against the knife that are similarly less vulnerable it behooves us to find them.

Lamont

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.

Biologically speaking pronating the arm in this fashion changes the muscle groups providing support to a substantially weaker configuration. Laymen's terms: weaker block. Fortunately it's only a light blow (generally speaking) from a slashing knife attack so this change remains effective to a degree. It also depends on the grip as certain knife grips are used hoping that someone places their arm in the configuration you suggested so that they may hook, pull and disable the limb, or press and disable.

Agreed, but some counters leave you less open to feinting. From your kick example, if the defender had left his hands high, and merely raised his knee to jam your kick they would be less vulnerable to your feint. If there are options against the knife that are similarly less vulnerable it behooves us to find them.

Jamming the kick assumes that it's very close range, also it's alot harder to jam a thusting kick as opposed to a snaping kick due to the nature of load and chamber position. Also you mentioned if the defender left the hands high which brings some problems into play.

1) Hands left high while absorbing a thrust kick on one leg is a no no (in particular to the abdomen as in my initial example). The hands are in no position to provide support and standing on one leg while absorbing a direct linear attack provides no bracing angle to prevent knockback/knockdown.

2) If the hands are high then there is no reason to alter the target to a head shot. The head is covered and is therefore not a viable target for that particular change up.

Counters leaving you "less open" to feinting depends on the nature of the intended attack as opposed to the counter. For example if I intend to punch my oppnent and I feint a jab and he counters with a "philly shell" defense he is not likely to be open to my punch. However if I intended to shoot and tackle and he defended the jab with a "philly shell" his hands are up and in no position to sprawl therefore clearing the path for my shoot, despite his counter.

There are far too many variables to be taken into consideration for any given scenario and if you change the attack then the defense must be changed accordingly. That's why Kenpo techniques are taught in the 'ideal' phase against very specific attacks. When the attack changes the defense changes as well, but it is all based on the first of the three speeds...perceptual speed or reading attacks.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Actually, when I do an inward block for a knife I pronate my arm so that my inner arm is not easily available for that sort of attack.
Lamont

Pronate? Help me, if you sit at a table and place your arms in front of you, Palms down = pronate , palms up = supinate. Pronating on an inward block will dramatically reduce mobility and strength. over supination presents a different set of problems.

Rules are meant to be broken but in general you want to keep the dorsal surface (Back) of your forearm on the side the knife can most easily cut you. I suspect that if you do knife techniques with your focus on not getting cut, you are doomed to failure. An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance. If you have successfully redirected the knife and you are now between the attacker and his knife (inside or outside the arm) your second move must be powerful and capable of disabling him or fully controlling the weapon. Don't worry about the minor injuy you might get as the knife is retracted, this is unlikely to kill you. You will be under full adrenalin/stress reaction and incapable of fine motor or fancy movements (unless extremely well trained) and unlikely even to feel the knife cut you. Render your attacker incapable of causing further harm as quickly and ruthlessly as possible then step back and assess the damage he has caused you.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Sigung86]

I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}

I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Blindside]

I have not.... thankfully.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Pronate? Help me, if you sit at a table and place your arms in front of you, Palms down = pronate , palms up = supinate. Pronating on an inward block will dramatically reduce mobility and strength. over supination presents a different set of problems.

Rules are meant to be broken but in general you want to keep the dorsal surface (Back) of your forearm on the side the knife can most easily cut you. I suspect that if you do knife techniques with your focus on not getting cut, you are doomed to failure. An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance. If you have successfully redirected the knife and you are now between the attacker and his knife (inside or outside the arm) your second move must be powerful and capable of disabling him or fully controlling the weapon. Don't worry about the minor injuy you might get as the knife is retracted, this is unlikely to kill you. You will be under full adrenalin/stress reaction and incapable of fine motor or fancy movements (unless extremely well trained) and unlikely even to feel the knife cut you. Render your attacker incapable of causing further harm as quickly and ruthlessly as possible then step back and assess the damage he has caused you.

Respectfully,

Jeff

Hmm, I appear to have misused the term, I meant to rotate the hand inward. As for the rest of your post, I agree completely, in fact your description of action would perfectly describe the training I have received in knife defense through Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. What I have been trying to do is find how kenpoists attempt just your first step against a slashing attack:

An attacker with a knife is out to kill you. There should be no ***** footing around. your initial move needs to both redirect the knife and disrupt the assailants alignment/balance.

From the conversation of the few people who have participated (thank you all) is that the extended outward block is considered an adequate initial defense (along with footwork) against this type of attack.

Lamont

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}

I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.

Thanks,

Dan

Got one here 4 times, I'm two for four in that 2 I managed to defend and not get hurt and two I managed to get hurt, one slash and 1 stab. Gotta love life in B-more as if...

 

[MJS]

I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}

I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.

Thanks,

Dan

Not yet and hopefully never.

Mike

 

[Josh Oakley]

Place your arm on your side and rub your hand across the exposed lateral surface. The first thing you'll notice is that the skin moves with you making penetration more difficult. Then notice that what you feel is skin slipping over bone. This bone will limit knife slicing penetration. The more important nerves and vessels are buried deeper in the tissues and unlikley to be reached with a back to front motion. I'm no expert on this but the only slicing death I've seen was to the throat. The other knife deaths I've seen all involved stabbing. This would be different if we were discussing swords which can cleave much more deeply. Don't get me wrong, the arm slice will hurt badly but it will also make you slippery and a more difficult target.

Jeff

That also depends on where and how the attacker strikes. a slash to the wrist or the pit of the elbow will not only hurt, it will disable the arm. While the attacker will still have 5 weapons, you will have only three now. And unless you have incredible mental strength, your first instinct will be to grab the injured arm, giving him a chance to either slash to the throat, stab to the genitals, ot take out another arm.

Leg slashes can be more disabling than people seem to think. a good knife in skilled hands can cut through clothes, skin, and tendons in one motion. This is even more the case with those new box cutters designed like tactical folders. Now you're dealing with a razorblade. It won't cut deep, but it doesn't need to to find a tendon

Many knife fighters try to disable opponents before attempting to kill them. It won't necessarily be through stabbing. It can just as easily be on someone trying to disable him, which he then grabs, locks up, and THEN employs the knife.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

That also depends on where and how the attacker strikes. a slash to the wrist or the pit of the elbow will not only hurt, it will disable the arm. While the attacker will still have 5 weapons, you will have only three now. And unless you have incredible mental strength, your first instinct will be to grab the injured arm, giving him a chance to either slash to the throat, stab to the genitals, ot take out another arm.

Leg slashes can be more disabling than people seem to think. a good knife in skilled hands can cut through clothes, skin, and tendons in one motion. This is even more the case with those new box cutters designed like tactical folders. Now you're dealing with a razorblade. It won't cut deep, but it doesn't need to to find a tendon

Many knife fighters try to disable opponents before attempting to kill them. It won't necessarily be through stabbing. It can just as easily be on someone trying to disable him, which he then grabs, locks up, and THEN employs the knife.

Glad to see you join the discussion! A good knife yes as was posted earlier, but too a degree. Cutting through tendon even with a razor blade is much HARDER than people think. Also the human anatomy is curiously designed in that the easiest ways to disable someone are the hardest to access, with the exception being the neck where safety design is sacrificed for necessary mobility.

I'm not aware of your background so I'll not assume. But I'm seeing a trend of these "hollywood" mentalities that a knife just slashes the body and disables the limb and that when hurt people instantly grab what was hurt. Both are fallacies I'm afraid. Knife slashes are hard to disable with unless the target is immobilized first (hense why filipino systems tend to "knife grapple" when disabling targets.) One tendon being cut won't disable a limb, you have to cut several of them. Also adrenaline dump often prevents people from registering wounds (unless they SEE it occur) until after the confrontation is over. Feeling is one of the senses that the body naturally dulls in a high stress eno****er. Hearing, Taste and Smell go as well but that's another discussion (tunnel vision for those interested in researching this phenomenon).

I've unfortunately been on the "business end" of two blades and have cut open a few cadavers and...anyway. From my experience of cutting and being cut alot of the "theories" of how dangerous some slashes are are way off. Also some of the theories of how safe some areas are are way off too.

I've only done private security and bouncing work, but the law enforcement guys can chare some stories as well. Short version: I've watched guys get slashed, stabbed, shot and have limbs broken in violent encounters. Most of them didn't notice until they A) lost a lot of blood B) tried to use the broken limb and it didn't function properly or C) calmed down. So much for this theory of people "grabbing what hurts" that I hear all of the time. In my experiences that has not been the case but so many martial arts schools teach people this.

 

[HKphooey]

once again, I am not concerned with the initial slash, I am concerned with the missed block attempt and the stab that may follow the failed attempt.

 

[MJS]

Came across a few interesting things I thought I'd share for discussion.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html


Lie #10 Grappling with a knife
Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.

Speaking for myself only here, I don't want to assume that the adrenal dump is going to keep me going. Chances are, unless its a surprise attack, such as you'd see in prison shankings, we're going to see that cut.

I think its safe to say that the majority of us have gone through a number of knife scenarios. While some may not have faced a real attack, I would hope that during our training, we gear our 'attacks' to be as real as possible, so as to create that proper mindset.

I also realize that we always hear the first thing we should do is run. While I agree with getting out of the situation, we may not be able to, so the next best thing would be to get something to use as an equalizer. If I can pick up a chair or anything else in the area, and use it to aid in my defense, I'm going to do it. If all else fails, I want to control that weapon hand. A disarm can come after, if possible, but I want control of that arm.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Came across a few interesting things I thought I'd share for discussion.



Speaking for myself only here, I don't want to assume that the adrenal dump is going to keep me going. Chances are, unless its a surprise attack, such as you'd see in prison shankings, we're going to see that cut.

I think its safe to say that the majority of us have gone through a number of knife scenarios. While some may not have faced a real attack, I would hope that during our training, we gear our 'attacks' to be as real as possible, so as to create that proper mindset.

I also realize that we always hear the first thing we should do is run. While I agree with getting out of the situation, we may not be able to, so the next best thing would be to get something to use as an equalizer. If I can pick up a chair or anything else in the area, and use it to aid in my defense, I'm going to do it. If all else fails, I want to control that weapon hand. A disarm can come after, if possible, but I want control of that arm.

Just my .02

Mike

Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is. While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut. Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash. Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.

Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target. The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.

Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean. I couldn't put it in better words than that. Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)

 

[Sigung86]

Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is. While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut. Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash. Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.

Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target. The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.

Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean. I couldn't put it in better words than that. Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)

Dang James!

Teach me to take the weekend off. This kind of information was where I was heading with my initial question about who has/has not been in a real knife altercation.

It is truly surprising what can and can not be done in the reality of the fight versus the "mats" version of knife defense 1, 2, 3, etc.

I will say that when a trained in and ingrained technique that worked 999 times goes awry on number 1000, and it's for real, the pucker factor goes up dramatically. :rofl:

 

[MJS]

Agreed here control the weapon by all means, the debate is on how serious of a cut/stab we're talking about and where it is. While I don't advocate assuming that every cut will be minor in nature I also know that not every cut and every target will have you bleeding to death if your stabbed or cut. Give the weapon respect, but don't go over board where you're defending butterknife cuts to back of your forearm as though they're going to kill you in 30 seconds from one slash. Some people take it that far and are training to fail because of it.

Short version: In a knife fight prepare for the high probability of being cut and prevent those cuts from being serious in nature and target. The term "acceptable losses" comes to mind, and few want to accept that they stand a high chance of getting one if not several times.

Check out knife lie #14 on that page to understand exactly what I mean. I couldn't put it in better words than that. Lie #17 also fits my line of thought having unfortunately "been there done that" (and not trying to ever do it again!)

Great points James! I think for the most part, we're on the same page, but perhaps there is some confusion in the wording. We all know how easy it is to get confused on these forums. LOL!

I certainly realize that getting cut is going to happen. Any confrontation is going to be unpredictable, so that being said, we just need to do the best we can, and hope for the best.

Looking over some of the latest threads on the knife over on KT, I see a mixed bag of posts, with some saying the techs. will work and some saying they wont. Interesting reading to say the least.

While some, myself included, have not faced a real blade, I'm sure that there are many of us out there that have not faced a good portion of the attacks that we see in Kenpo. I doubt that everyone here has been on the receiving end of a loaded gun, but we still teach techs. to defend the gun and all we can do is hope that our training brings us out on top.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I am kind of curious ... Of those discussing the knife attack/defense, how many have been attacked with a knife? %-}

I have a reason for asking that I will get back to after I have seen some answers.

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan,

Out of curiosity, since you posted this question, I'd be interested in hearing your answer to this question. Its always nice to get feedback from people that have experienced something first hand.

Thanks,

Mike