Kenpo And The Knife

[K831]

I have to wonder, sometimes, when I see the negative comments, that it could be a result of, someone, for lack of better words, being jealous. Seems that sometimes people are afraid to admit that something may not really be what its cracked up to, so in turn, instead of admitting it, they bash someone who stepped up to the plate, and 'supercharged' the material.

I think you are correct, this is a large part of it. I started MA when I was 8. A lot of what I learned was not very good, in terms of "combat". It hurt when I came to this realization, because of the time and energy put into an endeavor that turned out to be something other than what I thought.

This of course depends on your goals. My goal was combat efficiency (more martial, than art). I have seen that look on the face of many BB's and 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc when they come to our camp or into our school. I have seen it on the face of guys from various styles when they came into the Krav classes or the FMA classes I was atending.... and were met with a more realistic, devastating training method. We have had some high ranking Kenpo people come out, and I have seen that look on their face, I recognized it cuz I felt it too.

Some of them are more focused on getting better and they can quickly say "wow, good stuff, I wanna add to the good I have and get rid of the rest." Others can't and so they say "thats not new, that's not improved that doesn't work" etc... Too bad. I am concerned with "what is right" not "who is right".

As for the empty hand techniques....I agree with those as well. Nothing wrong with teaching the step thru, if you wanted to, if you thought it was realistic, but IMHO, I think that its best to focus on things that are going to be the most commonly seen.

Agreed, and we do work off of a rear step through once in a while. But, if you can respond and block/parry/check/trap/slip a good, fast jab/cross/kick, then I think it is safe to say you will be comfortable picking up the untrained fighters looping rear step through punch!

Reading Prof. Bishops book on Kajukenbo, this is exactly what they did with their techniques....put the focus more on a more realistic attack, jabs, crosses, etc.

I don't know Prof. Bishop (other than some of his posts here) nor have I had the chance to read his book, but I have spent some time in Kaju schools (one of my brothers is currently training at a Kaju school) and I appreciate their warrior spirit and realistic approach. Same with much of JKD, FMA and Krav. Those styles seem to have a higher concentration of guys working against resisting, realistic attacks and honing their material to real life altercations. So is the AKKI, but we also have Parkers motion built in, and that is the clincher for me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

One of the main teaching tools for kenpoists is how to not cut the hell out of yourself while using the blade. (Slap art becomes tap art)
Sean

 

[K831]

One of the main teaching tools for kenpoists is how to not cut the hell out of yourself while using the blade. (Slap art becomes tap art)
Sean

Certainly. Those "slaps" need to be positional checks, not just reciprocation.

 

[MJS]

I think you are correct, this is a large part of it. I started MA when I was 8. A lot of what I learned was not very good, in terms of "combat". It hurt when I came to this realization, because of the time and energy put into an endeavor that turned out to be something other than what I thought.

Couldn't agree more, and the more I read your posts, the more I think, "Yup, I was in the same boat!" Reminds me of the saying, "If I knew then, what I know now...." More than one time, I found myself wondering, had I gone elsewhere, I now would not have had to play catch up. Fortunately things do work themselves out, and I train at a wonderful school.

This of course depends on your goals. My goal was combat efficiency (more martial, than art). I have seen that look on the face of many BB's and 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc when they come to our camp or into our school. I have seen it on the face of guys from various styles when they came into the Krav classes or the FMA classes I was atending.... and were met with a more realistic, devastating training method. We have had some high ranking Kenpo people come out, and I have seen that look on their face, I recognized it cuz I felt it too.

Mine was SD as well. Fortunately, training has opened the doors for me to have the chance to work with many wondeful people, people who, I probably never would've met, if it hadn't have been for training.

Agreed, and we do work off of a rear step through once in a while. But, if you can respond and block/parry/check/trap/slip a good, fast jab/cross/kick, then I think it is safe to say you will be comfortable picking up the untrained fighters looping rear step through punch!

I try to work both. I"ve been focusing alot lately on taking the base technique, and whenever my partner is ready, do something to disrupt the normal flow of the tech. Certainly makes you have to stop and think.

I don't know Prof. Bishop (other than some of his posts here) nor have I had the chance to read his book, but I have spent some time in Kaju schools (one of my brothers is currently training at a Kaju school) and I appreciate their warrior spirit and realistic approach. Same with much of JKD, FMA and Krav. Those styles seem to have a higher concentration of guys working against resisting, realistic attacks and honing their material to real life altercations. So is the AKKI, but we also have Parkers motion built in, and that is the clincher for me.

If you have the chance to pick up the book, do so. Its well worth it.

 

[MJS]

So, while surfing that other forum, there has been some discussion on the Knife Set, that is taught. Here are a few clips, to give an example:

So, some are saying that while the form does teach the knife, that all its really doing is just placing a knife in the hands of someone doing empty hand Kenpo techniques, that if you really want an understanding of the knife, you need to look at weapon based arts, ie: FMAs.

Others are saying that the movement is more than what it seems, which if you look, you'll see finger set.

So, for those that know this form, or those that just want to comment, what are your thoughts?

 

[MJS]

No thoughts? Anyone, anyone??

 

[Carol]

*chuckle* Kinda reminds me of this...

[yt]4DzcOCyHDqc[/yt]

Sport vs. self-defense. Its a nice tournament form.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form. Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...

 

[Carol]

I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form. Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...

There's some controversy surrounding the Long 8. It's been said that Mr. Parker died before the form was finished. Some schools/orgs don't teach it, the ones that do don't teach it until the 3rd or 4th black.

Dr. Chapel has referred to Long 5, 6, 7, and 8 as competition forms. Its not difficult, IMO, to see the competition appeal for the form. The mirrored and repetitive arm movements offer good opportunities for personal pedagogy or to showcase the synchronization of a demo team.

But the form doesn't teach fighting. I can't think of an obvious combat application for standing in a horse stance and vigorously waving your arms around, nor can I think of one for standing in a Crane stance with an edged weapon in each hand.

Take Delayed Sword, which is one of the first techniques Kenpoists learn. Step back and block, then a front snap kick, then a shuto. Here's a couple of kids doing their version:

[yt]CiY8bUvtLH0[/yt]

Even this basic technique takes in to account the impact that your strikes will have on the body. Long 8, at least as performed in the clips, does not account for any impact, or anything that happens once a knife enters the body.

Is there material in the forms that you can use with a knife? Absolutely, and I'm sure there is plenty that I am missing But with something as deadly as a knife, is it truly wise to use this as stand-alone material? I don't think it is.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form. Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...

Me neither. That there is footage of Mr. Parker teaching the use of the knife in a very different manner than in Long 8 I find interesting. I wonder why there is this discrepancy. I remember there being a commercial art and then his "real" art, so I wonder if that plays into the discrepancy,

 

[Touch Of Death]

Me neither. That there is footage of Mr. Parker teaching the use of the knife in a very different manner than in Long 8 I find interesting. I wonder why there is this discrepancy. I remember there being a commercial art and then his "real" art, so I wonder if that plays into the discrepancy,

The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
Sean

 

[MJS]

The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
Sean

Are you talking about Mike Pick here?

 

[Rolls_Royce_Phantom]

Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to “pro hold”, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. I’ll be keeping my eye on these skills, or I’ll get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if I’m outside of the context of the thread.

 

[MJS]

Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to “pro hold”, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. I’ll be keeping my eye on these skills, or I’ll get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if I’m outside of the context of the thread.

Ummm..I'm sorry, but what are you talking about with this post????

 

[Blindside]

Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to “pro hold”, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. I’ll be keeping my eye on these skills, or I’ll get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if I’m outside of the context of the thread.

What is a "pro hold?"

 

[Sukerkin]

I hesitate to speculate .

 

[Rolls_Royce_Phantom]

Hehe. Sorry guys. It's difficult talking about certain life threatening experiences when you don't know the correct technical jargon. I posted this in the wrong forum and in the wrong context. My apologies. It'd old news anyways. Until I can find a way of talking about technical benefits of the event that is useful on paper...

 

[Touch Of Death]

are you talking about mike pick here?

No; Mr. Hibben.

 

[Brian Jones]

The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
Sean

Beg to differ. Like the form or not, Mr. Parker designed the form. Mr. Hibben designed the "Kenpo Knife" I believe as a part of his Black Belt thesis.

Brian Jones

 

[Touch Of Death]

Beg to differ. Like the form or not, Mr. Parker designed the form. Mr. Hibben designed the "Kenpo Knife" I believe as a part of his Black Belt thesis.

Brian Jones

So... Mr. Hibben had no part in the form design? I did not know that; unless, you are mistaken. I'm not going to worry about it one way or the other, but I did hear he helped design the form. Perhaps the world will never know... or Doc could just tell us.
Sean