Kenpo Blade Work

Doc said:
From my perspective sir, you need to ask a specific question. I've already addressed the generalities as I see them.
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I believe that I asked my question in my first post. I've seen some good replies, but as I said, I'm looking specifically, for the discussion on the Kenpo knife techniques.

I posted 2 links to 2 techniques. I'm hoping that we can start there.

Mike
 
Doc said:
The knife fight scenario where two guys square off with knives is an invention of the movies. quote]

or someone who has created the ultimate "Knife Fighting Course", which has been developed for when you find yourself in that "sticky spot" armed with only a leatherman (out of its holster opened and ready) you are forced to defend against a balisong, machette or Bowey Knife waving crew of trained (they have taken the course already)bad guys......

......" but should I be forced to defend myself..... then! here is my weapon a specially designed 12inch serrated edged commando knife , which incorporates a handy knuckle duster.

Knives dont kill people...peolpe kill people.
Click to expand...
 
MJS said:
Well, as I said, I'm looking for feedback.

http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10701&postcount=1

http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1193

We can start with this.

Mike
Click to expand...

I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' as described in your second link. Assume for the moment that this attack is likely to happen (I can't comment on this but see Doc's response in this same thread).

RobBroad said:
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right shuffling knife thrust.

2. Step your right foot to 7:30 into a left neutral bow as you get out of the line of attacker.
Click to expand...

I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.

As written, a 'step back' to 7.30 is actually a 'step around' and in my opinion is not a very efficient way to get to that position. More detail should be present on specific foot-work that would allow one to transition safely out of the way.

I would also question whether a left-neutral-bow would be the most desirable stance to transition to...a push-drag backwards into a forward-bow would be faster and allow you to react quicker to the attack. comments anyone?

RobBroad said:
(2. continued) Execute a right outward hand sword to the outside of your attacker's right wrist. Immediately after you strike the right wrist, seize the wrist and execute a left palm strike to the outside of your attacker's right elbow.
Click to expand...

The next problem I see with the technique is how to execute the right-outward-handsword. The way I see it, your right hand must first come across your own centerline, contouring your body as you 'step back' - in an outward parrying motion to ensure that you have a limb inbetween the knife and your body. Once the right arm has been brought into the correct posture the hand-sword/grab can be executed.

The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.

I see this first 'phase' of the technique to be the most important, with the rest of the technique (especially from step#5 - the 'hopping' part) to be out of place within the context of a knife-defence tactic.


james
 
JamesB said:
I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' as described in your second link. Assume for the moment that this attack is likely to happen (I can't comment on this but see Doc's response in this same thread).



I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.

As written, a 'step back' to 7.30 is actually a 'step around' and in my opinion is not a very efficient way to get to that position. More detail should be present on specific foot-work that would allow one to transition safely out of the way.

I would also question whether a left-neutral-bow would be the most desirable stance to transition to...a push-drag backwards into a forward-bow would be faster and allow you to react quicker to the attack. comments anyone?



The next problem I see with the technique is how to execute the right-outward-handsword. The way I see it, your right hand must first come across your own centerline, contouring your body as you 'step back' - in an outward parrying motion to ensure that you have a limb inbetween the knife and your body. Once the right arm has been brought into the correct posture the hand-sword/grab can be executed.

The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.

I see this first 'phase' of the technique to be the most important, with the rest of the technique (especially from step#5 - the 'hopping' part) to be out of place within the context of a knife-defence tactic.


james
Click to expand...
You UK guys are pretty sharp. :)
 
WOW!! This is what I'm looking for! Thanks James! Its nice to finally get on track with where I was looking for this thread to go..a discussion on the techniques!


JamesB said:
I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.

As written, a 'step back' to 7.30 is actually a 'step around' and in my opinion is not a very efficient way to get to that position. More detail should be present on specific foot-work that would allow one to transition safely out of the way.

I would also question whether a left-neutral-bow would be the most desirable stance to transition to...a push-drag backwards into a forward-bow would be faster and allow you to react quicker to the attack. comments anyone?
Click to expand...

Good point. Personally, I'd rather move off to the side, out of the line of attack.



The next problem I see with the technique is how to execute the right-outward-handsword. The way I see it, your right hand must first come across your own centerline, contouring your body as you 'step back' - in an outward parrying motion to ensure that you have a limb inbetween the knife and your body. Once the right arm has been brought into the correct posture the hand-sword/grab can be executed.

The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.

I see this first 'phase' of the technique to be the most important, with the rest of the technique (especially from step#5 - the 'hopping' part) to be out of place within the context of a knife-defence tactic.


james
Click to expand...

IMO, and it just may be the way *I* have learned this technique, I'm not crazy about the initial knife hand and then trying to grab with the same hand. If the grab is missed, we've done nothing more than set the attacker up for a follow up strike.

I've always been a believer in trying to maintain control of the weapon hand first and foremost. We can't assume that any of the strikes are going to incapacitate our opponent. In addition we need to take into consideration that they're not going to be standing there, but instead trying to pull away from us.

Mike
 
Good discussion finally, for discussion purposes. I agree with your concerns with the techniques.

Thanks for the stats "Doc".
 
I agree that the odds of getting into a knife fight or any other fight is very rare these days. However, the odds of having a few planes fly into buildings was also a very low odds but it happened. We were not prepared for that one because it was such a low % chance of it actually happening. Just because the odds are "in your favor" does not give you an excuse to be unprepared. If that was the case then we all should give up the phycisal combat arts and change into more internal arts. After all that training will be more benificial to us and we will all get a chance to use it.

I think that there is some good stuff in the knife techniques but you may need an experience person whom has studied them to point them out ( I would highly recommend e-mailing Lee Wedlake www.lwkarate.com I just had a seminar on this exact topic and he was able help me understand them much better. ) I still favor Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) as a far superior system for knife defense. If you are really interested in looking deeper into the knife techniques look for the open ended traingles and cross relate them to how the FMA deal with knive attacks. Form 6 has a good bit of information in it so check that out. Also, some of the rod and storm techniques can also work as blade techniques (hint hint).

"CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPARED MIND"
 
Atlanta-Kenpo said:
I agree that the odds of getting into a knife fight or any other fight is very rare these days. However, the odds of having a few planes fly into buildings was also a very low odds but it happened. We were not prepared for that one because it was such a low % chance of it actually happening. Just because the odds are "in your favor" does not give you an excuse to be unprepared. If that was the case then we all should give up the phycisal combat arts and change into more internal arts. After all that training will be more benificial to us and we will all get a chance to use it.
Click to expand...

I agree with this statement! Looking at posts on some other forums, I see the attitude you're talking about. I'd rather be prepared for something and never have to use it, than be caught scratching my head, wondering what to do, if that day comes.

I think that there is some good stuff in the knife techniques but you may need an experience person whom has studied them to point them out ( I would highly recommend e-mailing Lee Wedlake www.lwkarate.com I just had a seminar on this exact topic and he was able help me understand them much better. ) I still favor Kali (Pekiti Tirsia) as a far superior system for knife defense. If you are really interested in looking deeper into the knife techniques look for the open ended traingles and cross relate them to how the FMA deal with knive attacks. Form 6 has a good bit of information in it so check that out. Also, some of the rod and storm techniques can also work as blade techniques (hint hint).

"CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPARED MIND"
Click to expand...

More great points! I agree that having someone show you the way, so to speak, will open your eyes in the event there is some confusion. I did just that, and I still make those calls to those that can and have cleared things up.

I agree with the FMA's also! Since I've been training, I've come to understand and respect the blade much much more.

Mike
 
JamesB said:
I'll have a go with 'glancing lance' .........

I would say that stepping off 'center-line' is fairly critical in this technique, if not the most important part. However of all the technique-writeups that I have seen on this technique, none have actually addressed how one should transition into the left-neutral-bow.

I see this first 'phase' of the technique to be the most important, with the rest of the technique (especially from step#5 - the 'hopping' part) to be out of place within the context of a knife-defence tactic.


james
Click to expand...

I would agree with you about the "write ups" and the moves from step #5 have more to do with a lesson in basic butchery, but the Lance techniques are in two halfs how to defend against a knife and then how to use it offensively. as well as murederously if you consider what you are really doing, so yes it has ceased to be a technique for defence.
I have found that that the initial use of the term "stepping" has already gotten you off on the wrong foot(PTP), if you vigorously practice moving the target then the trasition into the left neutral should have a more natural feel, by working this simplest of ideas you will find that even Entwind Lance can become a more manegable exercise.
NB.
when I practice I dont try to make the written version work, but rather try and devlop an idea within the technique in this case moving the target.
Rich
 
The problem I see with this, is that your right arm has to first travel *under* the path of the knife thrust, as you are starting to execute the parry/handsword. Don't know why, but this doesn't seem like the best course of action to me. I think I'd prefer an attack from above (to the top of the attacker's arm). An attack from above would make more sense to me, as it would be likely that you would have your arms in the air anyway, in a defensive posture.
Click to expand...

One thing I don't like about the particular entry in this technique is that it requires the attack to be straight thrust and not be a hooking thrust. In my experience with this, you don't have the time to read the difference, particularly when you reduce the range. If you do this technique against a hooking thrust you wind up with the knife imbedded in your bowels. In general against lowline thrusts I prefer to zone left with a right downward block or go in straight and inside with a low counter thrust, but thats just my Pekiti talking.

Lamont
 
Blindside said:
...............or go in straight and inside with a low counter thrust, but thats just my Pekiti talking.

Lamont
Click to expand...

Hi Lamont,
could just clear something up for me when you say ...."with a low counter thrust"...are you armed with a blade as well?
W.R.
Rich
 
kenpoworks said:
I would agree with you about the "write ups" and the moves from step #5 have more to do with a lesson in basic butchery, but the Lance techniques are in two halfs how to defend against a knife and then how to use it offensively. as well as murederously if you consider what you are really doing, so yes it has ceased to be a technique for defence.
I have found that that the initial use of the term "stepping" has already gotten you off on the wrong foot(PTP), if you vigorously practice moving the target then the trasition into the left neutral should have a more natural feel, by working this simplest of ideas you will find that even Entwind Lance can become a more manegable exercise.
NB.
when I practice I dont try to make the written version work, but rather try and devlop an idea within the technique in this case moving the target.
Rich
Click to expand...
They grow them pretty smart across the pond. :)
 
Being 'prepared' is obviously a good idea. In fact we have gun and knife attacks in spite of the statistics because most of my students have more physical confrontations in a day, than most of you in a year or even a lifetime. But that is not the point. It is about priorities. I see far too may people discussing fancy knife fight techniques and defenses for things that are not likely to happen, when they can't step back into a good solid neutral bow and execute a good inward block. Unfortunately, I've seen and proved this too many times in seminars with people with way to many stripes. It's ok to try to learn how to fly, but can you at least give crawling a try before you jump up?
 
kenpoworks said:
Hi Lamont,
could just clear something up for me when you say ...."with a low counter thrust"...are you armed with a blade as well?
W.R.
Rich
Click to expand...

Usually it is done empty handed, but it comes from a bladed application. Imagine thrusting your left hand straight toward the other persons hip flexor (or slightly higher), this will bring your left hand to the inside of their thrust. The unarmed application stops short of touching the other persons body, the armed application can hit the body, but the point is you countered their thrust with one of your own.

Lamont
 
Blindside said:
Usually it is done empty handed, but it comes from a bladed application. Imagine thrusting your left hand straight toward the other persons hip flexor (or slightly higher), this will bring your left hand to the inside of their thrust. The unarmed application stops short of touching the other persons body, the armed application can hit the body, but the point is you countered their thrust with one of your own.

Lamont
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Lamont, I think I know what you mean now.
Rich
 
Out of interest has anybody investigated the 'Kenpo Counterpoint' series developed by Mr Zach Whitson? He has a second DVD available which details a series of 'knife flow drills'. The drills are a two-man set/form and combine all of the kenpo knife techniques (glancing/raining/piercing etc) into one continuously flowing form.

The counterpoint drills are a very interesting take on the knife techniques and include Pekiti-Tirsia Kali concepts+tactics within the form. I thought it was seriously cool when watching the DVD as have others I've shown it to..

this is the site (although I bought mine from the kenponet-mall):
http://www.kenpocounterpoint.com/Store.html


James
 
This thread seems to have slowed a bit. IMO, breaking down the techniques, so as to have a better understanding of them, is certainly something worth looking at.

So, that being said, I figured we could discuss the other technique on the link I posted.

Mike
 
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