Kenpo Blade Work

[MJS]

I know that we've had some interesting discussion on many of the empty hand techniques. The way that they are written, should certainly not mean that modifications may need to be put in place in order for the best results to be attained.

So, my question is: Looking at the knife techniques in the Kenpo system, I'd be interested in hearing everyones thoughts on them. Looking at some of the knife inflicted wounds from this post:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868

***WARNING- GRAPHIC CONTENT***

it certainly makes one want to be as cautious as possible when confronting someone with a blade.

So, at this time I'd like to open this thread up to the discussion of the blade techniques. Do any modifications need to be made, or are they fine the way they are?

Mike

 

[bushidomartialarts]

the chief problem with our kenpo blade techniques is that they're different from our defenses against open-hand attacks.

a skilled knife weilder will make the first cut before you realize you have a knife -- we need to react to the attacking motion without losing a quarter-second figuring out what we're being attacked with.

a second problem is that they avoid the first step in true defense against a knife: running. knife self-defense should be learned at the track, not at the dojo.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Doesn't everyone says "Run First", when possible. Because in a knife fight you will always get cut?

If you have to fight/defend...use shoes,belt,jacket or anything around you for a weapon to fight back with! Grab something...anything~!

Always have your outer arms facing out with palms facing you! It the knife attacker tries to cut you, he will not cut the veins.

and always use TWO HANDS to hold on to the knife hand and use the rest of your body to strike with! If you can grab and hold on!
don;t be fool with your everyday techiques in class....in the real world things will happen FAST, the adrenline,fear factor,heart pumping, the darkness...so on...

IN class NO one trains against a real attacter and a real blade! and every knife fighter will be different, some more experience,some slashers, and so on...

These are my thoughts..........never been in a real knife attack....so I could be wrong here............Aloha

 

[Doc]

I know that we've had some interesting discussion on many of the empty hand techniques. The way that they are written, should certainly not mean that modifications may need to be put in place in order for the best results to be attained.

So, my question is: Looking at the knife techniques in the Kenpo system, I'd be interested in hearing everyones thoughts on them. Looking at some of the knife inflicted wounds from this post:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868

***WARNING- GRAPHIC CONTENT***

it certainly makes one want to be as cautious as possible when confronting someone with a blade.

So, at this time I'd like to open this thread up to the discussion of the blade techniques. Do any modifications need to be made, or are they fine the way they are?

Mike

The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality.

The circumstances of the U.S. Marshal out of Texas shows what happens when you fail to recognize a suspect is armed, are attacked, and then attempt to run away. No further information is available to the public on the incident.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I have been studying Pekiti-Tirsia under Zach Whitson and a blend of FMA, Systems and Chinease knife arts from Al McLucki for the past few years now. It has ben my thinking that the EPAK knive techniques would get you seriously hurt if the person whom you were fighting had any knife training. However, I had the pleasure of attending a seminar with Lee Wedlake yesterday and one of the topics was knife techniques. He really opened my eyes about how they could work and how some of the gun and stick techniques can be used as a knife defense.

BTW (Doc he said to say hello).

 

[Touch Of Death]

Because blades are aggressive by nature, you should adhere to the order of 'create distance then stabilize your base'; however becoming rooted against a knife attack may not be such a great idea. If you have a knife it can cut and kill no wheather or not your heel is up or down; speed of action is key.
Sean

 

[kenposikh]

Basically if you face someone with a knife and they know how to use it then you're going to get cut and possibly killed, if they don't know how to use it then you may get cut and possibly killed.

If you also have a knife then you have a 1 in three chance of living, because they either kill you, you both kill each other or you kill him.

Not very good odds in my opinion.

Amrik

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc said.."The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality"...........I "suspect" he knows what he is talking about

 

[Flying Crane]

Doc said.."The knife techniques in the commercial system are "suspect" in reality"...........I "suspect" he knows what he is talking about

I don't know the commercial EPAK system, but I do know the Tracy system. I don't know how the techniques differ in EPAK, but the knife defenses in Tracys are pretty poor for the most part. I don't think you need to be as experienced as DOC to recognize a poor technique when you see one.

 

[Doc]

I have been studying Pekiti-Tirsia under Zach Whitson and a blend of FMA, Systems and Chinease knife arts from Al McLucki for the past few years now. It has ben my thinking that the EPAK knive techniques would get you seriously hurt if the person whom you were fighting had any knife training. However, I had the pleasure of attending a seminar with Lee Wedlake yesterday and one of the topics was knife techniques. He really opened my eyes about how they could work and how some of the gun and stick techniques can be used as a knife defense.

BTW (Doc he said to say hello).

Thanks much. Lee, always a classy guy. Backathim.

 

[Doc]

I don't know the commercial EPAK system, but I do know the Tracy system. I don't know how the techniques differ in EPAK, but the knife defenses in Tracys are pretty poor for the most part. I don't think you need to be as experienced as DOC to recognize a poor technique when you see one.

I agree totally. It goes back to the common sense that some abandon when some guy with a belt on starts teaching you how to survive, when he's never had to.

But that's the bad news. The good news is 'knife fights' are statistically non existent on the street of the U.S. According to the latest available FBI Stats, the prevailing attack 'on the street' with a blade is the 'Jim Carrey skit,' over the head, downward plunging, movie version. This hasn't changed since Mr. Parker looked at the stats back in the seventies.

The statistically miniscule assaults that are left are normally a knife used to either intimidate, or to launch a surreptitious attack where the attacker will not announce the attack. Often they come from behind from a smaller attacker against a larger individual. Additionally, the 'slashing' type blade action seen in movies does indeed exist, however this action is normally done DEFENSIVELY to keep someone away from them.

The knife fight scenario where two guys square off with knives is an invention of the movies. Law enforcement agencies generally do not even teach hand to hand defenses against blades, opting for firearms defense, and retention.

Keep in mind that for countries that prohibit handgun ownership, knife assaults are much higher, but oddly enough statistically relative to the population, there is little difference. Here in the U.S. where there are regions where handguns are prohibited, there is no positive difference is the use of handgun assaults, and no difference in knife attacks.

 

[arnisador]

There are links here to stories about sword and knife usage in Australia. For example:

"But the Australian Bureau of Statistics says knives are still used in 28 per cent of homicides and 32 per cent of attempted murders, compared with firearms, which figure in 13 per cent of killings."

 

[still learning]

Hello, The nice thing about your knife defense is? ...in a real attack by a person with a knife....you will find out quickly what works? ....do you trust your training?

If you come back and can share great? ....if not we learn from your mistakes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree totally. It goes back to the common sense that some abandon when some guy with a belt on starts teaching you how to survive, when he's never had to.

I think it is easy for many people to hold what they are taught as sacred and holy and untouchable. What we need to remember is that it was all just made up by someone once upon a time. The person who made it up was intelligent and skilled, but not divine. There is no reason why the things we are taught cannot be changed or even abandoned, if it makes sense to change or abandon them.

 

[Doc]

There are links here to stories about sword and knife usage in Australia. For example:

"But the Australian Bureau of Statistics says knives are still used in 28 per cent of homicides and 32 per cent of attempted murders, compared with firearms, which figure in 13 per cent of killings."

Absolutely correct sir. The elimination of handguns doesn't seem to make a significant impact on serious assaults or homicides. It seems those who would kill, will always find an impliment to help them fulfill their goal.

 

[MJS]

Great posts so far!

My intention was to discuss certain knife techniques, picking them apart, to see if they'd work as is, or what mods. would need to be made to them.

Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance and Glancing Lance are a few that I figure we could open for discussion.

Doc, I know that you said that the techs. are 'suspect' in reality. Going on the 3 that I've listed, what would you suggest? Another thing we can look at is, what is the possibility that we're going to be facing a trained person vs. the average Joe thug, that may attack us with a blade? I'm sure that in you LEO career, you've probably seen the sort of attack/person that we're most likely to see.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Great posts so far!

My intention was to discuss certain knife techniques, picking them apart, to see if they'd work as is, or what mods. would need to be made to them.

Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance and Glancing Lance are a few that I figure we could open for discussion.

There's no way you can discuss the mechanics of something this scerious in a posting. And I'm fairly sure my understanding of those techniques is different.

Doc, I know that you said that the techs. are 'suspect' in reality. Going on the 3 that I've listed, what would you suggest?

First, going back to my previous postings, what are the likelyhood of the attacks. "Raining Lance" yes, the others not likely. It is more likely you will be stabbed in the back than attacked with a thrusting blade head up.

Another thing we can look at is, what is the possibility that we're going to be facing a trained person vs. the average Joe thug, that may attack us with a blade?

"Trained" blade fighters are the ones that slide up behind you and kill you. You won't even see it coming. IF you're attacked by a knife by joe blow, he'll either slash defensively to keep you away, or downward plunge ala "Raining Lance."

I'm sure that in you LEO career, you've probably seen the sort of attack/person that we're most likely to see.

Growing up in South Central Los Angeles, thirty years in the field in the roughest neighborHOODS in the country, as a uniformed police officer, protective services agent, serving warrants and apprehending wanted felons; I have only had a knife pulled on me once, and he hoped to intimidate me to stay away from him. He was wrong, brought a knife to a gunfight and was taken into custody.

Truth is the chances of being assaulted with a knife are almost non-existent. In fact, the chances of getting into a fist fight are pretty rare in this country. That's what allows all these martial arts schools to thrive, and all these people to wear those stripes. Percentage wise, few ever really get tested. True you are more likely in some places than others, but I found growing up I had way more fist fights with my brothers than I did strangers.

 

[MJS]

There's no way you can discuss the mechanics of something this scerious in a posting. And I'm fairly sure my understanding of those techniques is different.

Yes, I certainly realize that it is hard to type and at the same time, hope that the person on the other end reading, is going to comprehend what is being said. However, whats the purpose of having a discussion forum then? I realize that hands on is the best example, but isn't it possible to discuss the movements of the techniques, as they're written to see what can be improved, left alone, etc?

Mike

 

[Carol]

Insert Nike-Jutsu kata here

EDIT: Great to see you on this side of the house, Arnisador. Please don't be a stranger, you have been missed.

 

[Doc]

Yes, I certainly realize that it is hard to type and at the same time, hope that the person on the other end reading, is going to comprehend what is being said. However, whats the purpose of having a discussion forum then? I realize that hands on is the best example, but isn't it possible to discuss the movements of the techniques, as they're written to see what can be improved, left alone, etc?

Mike

OK, go ahead.