Jan Dai lik (forward elbow intention)

[kung fu fighter]

Without name dropping before further snake body promoting and uninformative videos, I wish Hendrik would explain in detail the fundamental mechanics and dynamics of his snake body.
Referring to emei videos is insufficient.
In my own case, what I do is profiled in several articles in the Journal of Asian Martial arts, Inside Kung Fu, Kung Fu Taichi and is here in the article section of my web site at
Welcome to Tempe Wing Chun Kung-Fu .

Joy, this is a two way street, your article only give bits and pieces of your view on structure, they don't explain the full detail the fundamental mechanics and dynamics involved. Hendrik has certainly gave away much more details publicly in his posts and videos concerning the snake engine force flow than you have. I've ask you to explain your view about structure more than once so that we can compare with Hendriks view in order to have a civil productive conversation all to no avail. here is a yet another opportunity!

I know Keith has spent some time studying wing chun with you in the past, so I am sure he is familar with your type of structure, perhaps he can elaborate on what the differences are between what he learnt from you in comparission to what he is currently doing?

And I have seen Roselando's gu lao pinsun- an incomplete (compared to Ip man's art) collection of a few key motions.

May I ask from whom you've seen KLPSWC, because there is a public and private version. so perhaps your view is based on the public version. Your view on dicipled Kulo Pin Sun wck is inaccurate, all the key principles and concepts of of yip man wck are taught in KLPSWC along with some other elements based on Leung Jan's personal evolution and experience at the end of his teaching career. The system is just organized and taught in a different format or platform than the Futshan 3 forms system and needs the details of what's going on by a qualified sifu. but make no mistake about it there is nothing missing, in fact KLPSWC gave me a more insights into some of the more intricate details of Yip Man's art.

QUOTE="Hendrik, post: 1707638, member: 32789"]Navin has visited those who you refer to as great. If Navin willing to, Let Navin honestly share what is the different between what I share and what he experience from others[/QUOTE]

To be honest, had I not met Hendrik, I would be doing KLPSWC because I feel it's an efficient platform in how the system is organized and taught, plus it was in line with my wck evolution at the time. However in my opinion their engine is more aggressive Harder Bow compared to Hendrik's subtle soft Force Flow snake engine. KLPSWC engine is similar to hakka arts such as bak mei, where as Hendrik's force flow snake engine is like emei soft snake slide qigong. in terms of power generation there is no comparission, Force Flow is way more efficient and powerful.

when doing my force Flow chi sao in San Jose 3 years ago, Sifu Michael Mcilwrath described that my bridge (forearm) felt like I had continuous fa jin energy in them was proactive completely perturbing his balance and center axis.

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy, this is a two way street, your article only give bits and pieces of your view on structure, they don't explain the full detail the fundamental mechanics and dynamics involved. Hendrik has certainly gave away much more details publicly in his posts and videos concerning the snake engine force flow than you have. I've ask you to explain your view about structure more than once so that we can compare with Hendriks view in order to have a civil productive conversation all to no avail. here is a yet another opportunity!

I know Keith has spent some time studying wing chun with you in the past, so I am sure he is familar with your type of structure, perhaps he can elaborate on what the differences are between what he learnt from you in comparission to what he is currently doing?


May I ask from whom you've seen KLPSWC, because there is a public and private version. so perhaps your view is based on the public version. Your view on dicipled Kulo Pin Sun wck is inaccurate, all the key principles and concepts of of yip man wck are taught in KLPSWC along with some other elements based on Leung Jan's personal evolution and experience at the end of his teaching career. The system is just organized and taught in a different format or platform than the Futshan 3 forms system and needs the details of what's going on by a qualified sifu. but make no mistake about it there is nothing missing, in fact KLPSWC gave me a more insights into some of the more intricate details of Yip Man's art.

QUOTE="Hendrik, post: 1707638, member: 32789"]Navin has visited those who you refer to as great. If Navin willing to, Let Navin honestly share what is the different between what I share and what he experience from others

To be honest, had I not met Hendrik, I would be doing KLPSWC because I feel it's an efficient platform in how the system is organized and taught, plus it was in line with my wck evolution at the time. However in my opinion their engine is more aggressive Harder Bow compared to Hendrik's subtle soft Force Flow snake engine. KLPSWC engine is similar to hakka arts such as bak mei, where as Hendrik's force flow snake engine is like emei soft snake slide qigong. in terms of power generation there is no comparission, Force Flow is way more efficient and powerful.

when doing my force Flow chi sao in San Jose 3 years ago, Sifu Michael Mcilwrath described that my bridge (forearm) felt like I had continuous fa jin energy in them was proactive completely perturbing his balance and center axis.[/QUOTE]

Joy, this is a two way street, your article only give bits and pieces of your view on structure, they don't explain the full detail the fundamental mechanics and dynamics involved. Hendrik has certainly gave away much more details publicly in his posts and videos concerning the snake engine force flow than you have. I've ask you to explain your view about structure more than once so that we can compare with Hendriks view in order to have a civil productive conversation all to no avail. here is a yet another opportunity!

I know Keith has spent some time studying wing chun with you in the past, so I am sure he is familar with your type of structure, perhaps he can elaborate on what the differences are between what he learnt from you in comparission to what he is currently doing?


May I ask from whom you've seen KLPSWC, because there is a public and private version. so perhaps your view is based on the public version. Your view on dicipled Kulo Pin Sun wck is inaccurate, all the key principles and concepts of of yip man wck are taught in KLPSWC along with some other elements based on Leung Jan's personal evolution and experience at the end of his teaching career. The system is just organized and taught in a different format or platform than the Futshan 3 forms system and needs the details of what's going on by a qualified sifu. but make no mistake about it there is nothing missing, in fact KLPSWC gave me a more insights into some of the more intricate details of Yip Man's art.

QUOTE="Hendrik, post: 1707638, member: 32789"]Navin has visited those who you refer to as great. If Navin willing to, Let Navin honestly share what is the different between what I share and what he experience from others

To be honest, had I not met Hendrik, I would be doing KLPSWC because I feel it's an efficient platform in how the system is organized and taught, plus it was in line with my wck evolution at the time. However in my opinion their engine is more aggressive Harder Bow compared to Hendrik's subtle soft Force Flow snake engine. KLPSWC engine is similar to hakka arts such as bak mei, where as Hendrik's force flow snake engine is like emei soft snake slide qigong. in terms of power generation there is no comparission, Force Flow is way more efficient and powerful.

when doing my force Flow chi sao in San Jose 3 years ago, Sifu Michael Mcilwrath described that my bridge (forearm) felt like I had continuous fa jin energy in them was proactive completely perturbing his balance and center axis.[/QUOTE]
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Keith spent less than two years with me in Las Cruces before I left and I was disappointed with his progress from then on. I wish him well in his hopping around.

IMO you don't "continuously" feel fajing energy- as far as I can tell there is no real fajing in fut sao wing chun

Thank you for your post- I have nothing to add at this time.

 

[KPM]

Keith spent less than two years with me in Las Cruces before I left and I was disappointed with his progress from then on. I wish him well in his hopping around.

.

Well, there it is! I was waiting for that! I knew it was just a matter of time before Joy got around to launching the "low blow." ;-) Completely unfair as Joy has no idea what I was up to after he left Las Cruces. But this is an excellent way to do the old "well, if you think that then you couldn't have learned good Wing Chun well!" argument that I predicted earlier in this thread.

For the record....after I spent a good 2 years training with Joy, I continued training with Kurt Saenz on a regular basis for another 2 years. During that 2 years I made frequent trips to Tucson and trained directly with Augustine Fong. So that's a solid 4 years of training 2-3x/wk with quality people. Joy was very good and an excellent instructor. I am sure he has improved further in his skills and depth of knowledge over these many years since them. His comment above was uncalled for and pretty shitty, if I may say so myself.

At one point I was in Kansas City going to Chiropractic College. During that time I trained with Randy Li, a student of Ho Kam Ming.

During Medical School I got interested in Pin Sun and spent over 2 years traveling back and forth to Boston the train with Jim Roselando. More recently I revisited my Pin Sun by traveling again several times to Boston over a year spending time training with Marc Kenney. Both Jim and Marc are students of Henry Mui. While studying with Marc Sifu Mui would drop in on occasion to check progress and make corrections. He was impressed enough with what I was doing to give me an instructor's certificate.

Joy wants to call that "superficial." Yet he turns around and states:

FWIW I have done chi sao with Hendrik in his house some years ago. He was a god host.
But I was unimpressed with his skills.This is not based on hearsay........ And I have seen Roselando's gu lao pinsun- an incomplete (compared to Ip man's art) collection of a few key motions.

So Joy spent what....a few hours?...maybe a day?....with Hendrik at one point and Jim at another point. Yet he thinks he understands what Hendrik is talking about and understands the Ku Lo Pin Sun system enough to say it is an "incomplete collection of a few key motions"!!! Just WHO has the "superficial" exposure here? Just who is passing judgment based upon very little experience?

Look, I'm not too impressed with the way Hendrik has been presenting his case in the forums over time either. I don't know whether his view of WCK history is accurate or not. I don't know whether his "snake engine" truly derives from Emei or not. I don't know whether Yik Kam WCK is the best and original version of WCK ever seen before or not. What I have said is that in the Chu Sau Lei WCK I am now studying I am seeing things that I haven't seen elsewhere. These are good things and have improved my Wing Chun. Robert Chu and Alan Orr both give Hendrik credit, so that's good enough for me. I have literally over a decade of education in human anatomy, physiology, biomechanics, and sports medicine. When I say that what I am learning now is an improvement on all the Wing Chun I have encounter and studied in the past from a biomechanical standpoint, I know what I am talking about. I am the primary investigator on several scientific research projects, the medical monitor on several others, and a member f my hospital's Scientific Review Committee. I assure you that I don't drink anyone's "kool aide." You can ask me insulting questions all you want. You can make insulting comments about my Wing Chun experience all you want. But I'm telling you don't dismiss what Hendrik has been saying lightly.

 

[KPM]

I know Keith has spent some time studying wing chun with you in the past, so I am sure he is familar with your type of structure, perhaps he can elaborate on what the differences are between what he learnt from you in comparission to what he is currently doing?

Sorry Navin. I wouldn't even presume to attempt it because I already know exactly what response it would get! No matter what I would write Joy would simply say that I did not learn properly and don't know what I am talking about.

 

[Hendrik]

Joy,

It dont need two years.

It need only less then 16 hours to do basic transform of six core elements handling and one no longer do what he do before. Be it a five year old or a fourty year old wcner, they all be the same, transform. Even their level might varies but they are on the same direction , It is about proper use of biomechanics, physiology, and physics.

It is like iPhone, it is about technology, not about what religion, oldest, most authentic, which Demi God one believe in. Anyone can use an IPhone. As long as one has one.


Thus, I care less on lineage, my name , olderst, most authentic, true,.....etc all those do not solving technological problem of Siu Lin Tau.

Call it yik kam, call it red boat, call in made in USA. I care less.



My interest is to solve problem, the rest, who is better then who..... I care less because those are just ego stuffs which got no relationship to technology or technical issue needs to be solved. And what we have solved is something not yet being solved by others in past sixty years.


I propose to use biofeedback and physics lab to identify and examine the result because that is an objective test. It is like neuclear weapon, one doesn't have to destroy a city to prove its power , and one cannot cheat or giving lips service to talk their way out under the modern technology monitoring.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good luck with your nuclear power development Hendrik and good luck to KPM and Navin. Cheers. I will concentrate on other posts rather than yours.No parting Parthian shots intended.
I will stay within the circle of civility on this list.

 

[Hendrik]

Good luck with your nuclear power development Hendrik and good luck to KPM and Navin. Cheers. I will concentrate on other posts rather than yours.No parting Parthian shots intended.
I will stay within the circle of civility on this list.

Joy,

Thanks !

 

[KPM]

Good luck with your nuclear power development Hendrik and good luck to KPM and Navin. Cheers. I will concentrate on other posts rather than yours.No parting Parthian shots intended.
I will stay within the circle of civility on this list.

Not quite an apology for your "cheap shot." But Ok, thanks!

 

[kung fu fighter]

Good luck with your nuclear power development Hendrik and good luck to KPM and Navin. Cheers. I will concentrate on other posts rather than yours.No parting Parthian shots intended.
I will stay within the circle of civility on this list.

Thanks Joy! so you know I respect you as an elder in the Yip Man wing chun clan as well as your loyalty to your linage., however we must remember that as good as Yip Man was, he didn't know it all, in order to grow and expand our horizons, it's good to keep an open mind towards other wCK linages to learn from one another. I wish you good luck as well in your wing chun wing chun journey.

 

[Hendrik]

This might help to know why many don't understand

 

[zuti car]

Now , the most important question , can you fight with that snake engine . I saw some videos of that Alan guy , he is good, simple , direct, it can be used in a fight and... it is modified boxing . So question stays , is it possible to fight with this Hendrik's art ?

 

[Jake104]

Now , the most important question , can you fight with that snake engine . I saw some videos of that Alan guy , he is good, simple , direct, it can be used in a fight and... it is modified boxing . So question stays , is it possible to fight with this Hendrik's art ?

Fighting? What does that have to do with any of this? This thread like most WC threads always seem to turn into some sort of intellectual battle royal snooze fest. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz! I'd rather watch paint dry. Way more interesting!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now , the most important question , can you fight with that snake engine?

If the "snake engine" is "power generation", it will be nice to see a clip that use "snake engine" to hit on a heavy bag.

 

[KPM]

Now , the most important question , can you fight with that snake engine . I saw some videos of that Alan guy , he is good, simple , direct, it can be used in a fight and... it is modified boxing . So question stays , is it possible to fight with this Hendrik's art ?

Can you "race" with a car with an engine? Of course you can! But how well you do in the race may depend on which engine your car has! If your car has no engine at all, it isn't going far! Like I said before, "engine" is just a term for the core biomechanics one uses to handle force...to generate power....to receive and deal with incoming force. Everyone has an "engine" of some kind.

And Alan is not doing "modified boxing." At least not modified "western" boxing, which is what I assume you mean. When you know what to look for and really start to look for it, the mechanics he is using is not at all western boxing. Just because he is wearing boxing gloves at times and throwing fast snappy punches does not mean it is modified western boxing.

 

[KPM]

If the "snake engine" is "power generation", it will be nice to see a clip that use "snake engine" to hit on a heavy bag.

I believe this has been posted here before. This is Aaron Baum, one of Alan Orr's senior students and one of his MMA fighters. He has been trained in the "snake engine." Can you see it? Likely not. Can you see the engine of the typical NASCAR? But, if you know what to look for, you will see this is not western boxing.

 

[KPM]

In anticipation of the next question: "how is this different from western boxing?".....watch for these things:

1. Spine stays straight up and down. He is not "hunching over." And he is also not leaning back like you see in some Wing Chun!
2. Shoulders stay down, even when he throws a wide punch. There are no "shrugging" and "rolling shoulders" like you see in western boxing.
4. The rear heel may come up at times because he is pushing off from the ball of the foot, but he is not pivoting around the ball of the foot and swinging the heel around like a western boxer. Watch his rear hip. When his rear heel comes off the ground a bit it is because his rear hip is coming forward to generate power. Sometimes you will even see him take a small step forward with that rear foot to get good "square" hip alignment. The rear hip "slams in" for the punch, like slamming a car door. A western boxer will often pivot on the front hip and "swing in" with the rear hip while pivoting on the ball of the rear foot. This is a different biomechanic.
5. Its hard to see, but if you watch closely you can catch at times that he is pushing forward from the Kua and not "leaning in" from the shoulders like a western boxer.
6. Another thing that is hard to see but you start to get the "gist" of if you watch long enough....he keeps the shoulders and elbows down...not the exaggerated push the elbows into the centerline like in some Wing Chun....but the shoulders and elbows stay down and the power-line at impact goes through the hips and into the ground. There is a force vector at a downward angle from the point of impact. A western boxer with often lean into a punch and bend forward at the waist with his elbow up on impact. When he does this the force vector is going straight back and through his shoulder. It is not going into the ground.

Is any of this Hendrik's "snake engine"? He will have to chime in on that! But this is good solid biomechanics, and it is not western boxing. This is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. And....getting back to the OP!.....there is good forward intent here and good "elbow power."

 

[zuti car]

I believe this has been posted here before. This is Aaron Baum, one of Alan Orr's senior students and one of his MMA fighters. He has been trained in the "snake engine." Can you see it? Likely not. Can you see the engine of the typical NASCAR? But, if you know what to look for, you will see this is not western boxing.

All I see is power generation from rotating hips . Now , that is boxing or snake engine has same power generation as boxing. You van keep your elbows down ( like most boxers do) and hit with "wing chun" vertical fist, but if you rotate hips it is boxing. You may see something I don't and have deeper understanding of the art but until I see something really different, this is and will stay boxing .

 

[Kwan Sau]

All I see is power generation from rotating hips.

Power generation via turning of the hips, and hip rotation, is in 2nd and 3rd forms of most WC...

 

[Hendrik]

Most of you guys are keep looking for a mechanical system ignoring it is a hydraulic system.

 

[KPM]

All I see is power generation from rotating hips . Now , that is boxing or snake engine has same power generation as boxing. You van keep your elbows down ( like most boxers do) and hit with "wing chun" vertical fist, but if you rotate hips it is boxing. You may see something I don't and have deeper understanding of the art but until I see something really different, this is and will stay boxing .

Sorry Zuti. I disagree. You think Wing Chun doesn't use the hips? I would have had the same reaction that you had not long ago. But once you start to do it and know what it is, its easier to see and you know the differences. That clip is absolutely not western boxing.