Jan Dai lik (forward elbow intention)

[Vajramusti]

I never said Structure was a dead fixed thing, however there are different degrees of freedom. In my opinion Structure as in the clip I posted above has more degree of freedom than rooting/Rack, however the snake engine force flow has way more degrees of freedom than Structure. After having done both i can tell the difference. Since you only know structure it's difficult for you to have an informed opinion.
At least I showed my version of the "snake engine", perhaps you can show your version of structure so that I can have the opportunity to be impressed. What I showed was the first level, there are 9 levels. lol

 

[Vajramusti]

I am not trying to impress you.

 

[kung fu fighter]

I am not trying to impress you.

nor am I. I made the snake engine force flow clip to give people who were curious an idea of what it is?

 

[KPM]

Compressing a spring is a good example. I'm glad you used this example. .

Jake, don't think of it as one big spring. Think of it as multiple springs in parallel. If pressed with "smart energy" as you say, one can easily adapt to redirect that pressure as needed. One simply engages the appropriate "spring" at the appropriate angle as required. It's not one big "all or nothing" spring! This involves linking and de-linking various parts of the body as needed. We also use a "spiral" energy through the body when needed. This is all very dynamic. You can compress all 7 bows at once, depending on the circumstance. But you won't engage all 6 directions at once. After all...its forward/back, left/right, rise/sink (or up/down). How can you do all 6 at once? ;-)

 

[Jake104]

yes

it's not a static spring, more like the suspension system of a car ( think of how the car feels when going over speed bumps)

i have no idea what "smarty energy" is, nor "clamping your spring energy", perhaps you can explain??

A suspension system on a car does does not solely rely on springs to absorb energy. Plus the energies that the suspension absorbs isn't just a linear up and down enegery. It's multiple energies happening simultaneously. The suspensions articulates in multiple directions via leverage, torsion, hingeing, arcing and so on. Depending on what type of suspension system in use. Like leaf, spring coil, torsion,single arm; double arm strut etc. Point being is the spring is only one component of the system. Why? Because of multiple angles of force and energies happening at once from road conditions. So smart Kung Fu energy IS like a cars suspension. The whole suspension is dealing with these conditions not just the spring. So to put it very simple. My smart energy is not going to push your spring in only one direction. I might not even allow you to coil. Then what?

Clamping energy is opposing forces clamping down on an object. chokes locks etc. What I meant in terms of your spring energy is. Using the ground as half the clamp and taking your linear springy energy and manipulating it with multiple angles of my energy to keep you compressed or buckled.

 

[Jake104]

Jake, don't think of it as one big spring. Think of it as multiple springs in parallel. If pressed with "smart energy" as you say, one can easily adapt to redirect that pressure as needed. One simply engages the appropriate "spring" at the appropriate angle as required. It's not one big "all or nothing" spring! This involves linking and de-linking various parts of the body as needed. We also use a "spiral" energy through the body when needed. This is all very dynamic. You can compress all 7 bows at once, depending on the circumstance. But you won't engage all 6 directions at once. After all...its forward/back, left/right, rise/sink (or up/down). How can you do all 6 at once? ;-)

If springs are parallel wouldn't they all be moving in the same direction? I get it if the springs are at diferent angles. That makes sense .

I can engage back with forward, down or up and right or left at the same time. So that's maybe 3-4 out of six. I have felt a back with foward, down with up, right with left all at the same time. I can't do it. But I can tell you from experience. It's a weird *** feeling and super hard to deal with.

 

[Jake104]

Actually isn't a spiral, forward with left right up and down? That's 5 right there. Then ad moving back with forward intent spiraling and then you have 6? Then ad all that with downward or upward 45* angles. Seems like more than 6, and could become an endless amount of possible directional force angles?

I'm not saying I don't use spring energy. I'm just saying, I'm trying to use spring or any energy in not such a basic predictable way.

 

[KPM]

Actually isn't a spiral, forward with left right up and down? That's 5 right there. Then ad moving back with forward intent spiraling and then you have 6? Then ad all that with downward or upward 45* angles. Seems like more than 6, and could become an endless amount of possible directional force angles?

I'm not saying I don't use spring energy. I'm just saying, I'm trying to use spring or any energy in not such a basic predictable way.

Yeah. I agree. Any kind of analogy starts to break down if examined too closely. But I have also seen/felt what you are saying. Its all very dynamic. Much different than a simple "bracing structure" that you see lots of WCK people doing.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Interesting thread overall, though I did not watch the video (no way for discrete sound here at work).
My instructor introduced it to me as "Dai Jan Lik" or"low elbow force" as a sinking of the elbow, in almost everything we do. I have seen it as seperate from forward pressure though, which is a springiness and forward intent that comes naturally with time and is a big emphasis in WT.
In chi-sau, if I lose forward pressure / forward intent then my sifu gains space while I lose space; i.e. I get collapsed or jammed up. If I lose low elbow force though, then something different happens; his Bong Sau will creep underneath my fook, simple moving past me.
So to me, it seems possible to have forward pressure or intent, but it has to be combined with the low elbow force, and they are not one and the same.

 

[Hendrik]

Actually isn't a spiral, forward with left right up and down? That's 5 right there. Then ad moving back with forward intent spiraling and then you have 6? Then ad all that with downward or upward 45* angles. Seems like more than 6, and could become an endless amount of possible directional force angles?

I'm not saying I don't use spring energy. I'm just saying, I'm trying to use spring or any energy in not such a basic predictable way.

Six directional force cover the whole 3 dimentional planes or the coordinate x y z.

This is where I know your thinking is different to what I present.

 

[Hendrik]

nor am I. I made the snake engine force flow clip to give people who were curious an idea of what it is?

May be it is a time you made another video to share your experience

 

[Hendrik]

This so called elbow power is a partial concept of internal art of sinking elbow.

However, it doesn't not cover the soft body force flow as in this video,

It is a hard body technique, and it is rigid. The power generation is limited to the arm,

some lineage pair this elbow power with hip , it is a partial and rigid fixture , it is jamming force flow in order to boost Body impact.

Interesting thread overall, though I did not watch the video (no way for discrete sound here at work).
My instructor introduced it to me as "Dai Jan Lik" or"low elbow force" as a sinking of the elbow, in almost everything we do. I have seen it as seperate from forward pressure though, which is a springiness and forward intent that comes naturally with time and is a big emphasis in WT.
In chi-sau, if I lose forward pressure / forward intent then my sifu gains space while I lose space; i.e. I get collapsed or jammed up. If I lose low elbow force though, then something different happens; his Bong Sau will creep underneath my fook, simple moving past me.
So to me, it seems possible to have forward pressure or intent, but it has to be combined with the low elbow force, and they are not one and the same.

 

[Hendrik]

Kmp,

This is simple stuffs, Since Navin has developed the snake engine and the force flow handling, get him to a modern technology lab, hook him up and do the monitoring and measurements, the data will show what is it clearly. One then can see what it is compare with those who do structure , spring .....etc


I don't even want to debate and it is not even neccesary for me to show it. Anyone has the process and train, ie. Navin, Sergio, Phil Romero.......etc the lab data will show the facts of their engine. There will be variation in their level of handling but the key parameters will be consistence and converging. It never is fuzzy or up to everyone's intepretation because it is about physics. We do have the technology and process to do both quality and quantity mass production. Yes, Darth Vaders Cloning, not need those Jedi ego and fuzzy philosophy talk.

 

[JPinAZ]

it Means we are talking about completely different things, you are using structure or frame as in the clip I posted above, I am using force flow snake engine.

Good for you. But what does information from some other art have to do with WC? Why do people have to look to outside arts to talk about WC?
I've been reading the posts by you and others that talk this way and it typically comes off as condescending, rude, elitist and as if you have something to sell that no one else has (some might say it results in coming off as a bit insecure). Fact is, this stuff is not really that big of a deal IMO and has less to do with WC that some might have us believe. And, WC isn't so lacking in force & energy handling as some other people found in their WC. So what if we don't use 'snake engine'? Snake engine is snake engine, WC engine is WC engine and not animal style kung fu hybrid. Anyone that understands the WC system to a deep level will know this.

Look, we all know the story. There's a guy not tool long ago that felt his WC was incomplete.He is well documented on other forums stating such feelings. So he openly admits to investigating 'other outside arts' to find the missing pieces. He starts looking at snake and crane stuff to fill in what he feels are missing holes in his WC. He does this, not by finding actual sifus of these art and learning directly from them, but by looking at old writings, watching videos, scouring the internet, setting up groups on social media sites while grabbing info from others and then deleting said groups so the evidence of his 'borrowing of ideas' is erased, etc (yes, this happened many fimes on FB alone). He even goes as far as having some magical time machine to travel back to the 1800's to 'see' what WC was like back then lol

Yet still, after all of the internet learning, reading old material and making countless videos droning on about what is basically simple things to most people, along with thousands of post all over the internet - he still can't demonstrate any verifiable ability to use these skills in actual application - and always just points to other people for proof so the sham isn't exposed. Even his original WC family doesn't back up his new 'findings'!

Yet now somehow the tone is, if people are not using his borrowed snake engine ideas in their WC, they aren't doing WC right or have incomplete WC.. Haha, what a joke. Many people in the WC world don't see the same issues in their WC as this guy did - and thier WC just fine for them. Yet now that a few people also drank the koolaid, everyone should do so too - otherwise they are now what, sub-par in the 'new order's' opinion? It's great if mixing in outside animal snake and crane ideas has helped yours and a few others WC. But in the end, these ideas are still not WC. They are simply borrowed snake & crane ideas - which is why those terms still have to be used.

 

[Jake104]

Six directional force cover the whole 3 dimentional planes or the coordinate x y z.

This is where I know your thinking is different to what I present.

I don't know how you think you know what I'm thinking? I'm still open minded. I'm just a student and have felt different WC energies. This subject is just interesting too me. Maybe you got it all figured out. I don't.

I can fight though and throw big guys around. That's all that really matters to me. I'd like to feel this six directional force. You got anybody in the Phoenix area that can show me?

 

[Jake104]

Yeah. I agree. Any kind of analogy starts to break down if examined too closely. But I have also seen/felt what you are saying. Its all very dynamic. Much different than a simple "bracing structure" that you see lots of WCK people doing.

Yes, for me it's humbling to get thrown around. When all along I thought I knew energy and had good structure.. There are just so many layers of learning. That's why I think trying to put it into words or videos is pretty much useless. It's something that has to be felt.

 

[Jake104]

Just the term snake ENGINE seems weird to me. An engine creates energy yes, but some sort of powertrain needs to distribute it. Otherwise it's just wasted energy. Plus if WC is 200 years old what engines were around back then? Steam powered? I'm not calling you a liar but it kind of sounds made up too me? Is this something you named?

 

[Vajramusti]

Good for you. But what does information from some other art have to do with WC? Why do people have to look to outside arts to talk about WC?
I've been reading the posts by you and others that talk this way and it typically comes off as condescending, rude, elitist and as if you have something to sell that no one else has (some might say it results in coming off as a bit insecure). Fact is, this stuff is not really that big of a deal IMO and has less to do with WC that some might have us believe. And, WC isn't so lacking in force & energy handling as some other people found in their WC. So what if we don't use 'snake engine'? Snake engine is snake engine, WC engine is WC engine and not animal style kung fu hybrid. Anyone that understands the WC system to a deep level will know this.

Look, we all know the story. There's a guy not tool long ago that felt his WC was incomplete.He is well documented on other forums stating such feelings. So he openly admits to investigating 'other outside arts' to find the missing pieces. He starts looking at snake and crane stuff to fill in what he feels are missing holes in his WC. He does this, not by finding actual sifus of these art and learning directly from them, but by looking at old writings, watching videos, scouring the internet, setting up groups on social media sites while grabbing info from others and then deleting said groups so the evidence of his 'borrowing of ideas' is erased, etc (yes, this happened many fimes on FB alone). He even goes as far as having some magical time machine to travel back to the 1800's to 'see' what WC was like back then lol

Yet still, after all of the internet learning, reading old material and making countless videos droning on about what is basically simple things to most people, along with thousands of post all over the internet - he still can't demonstrate any verifiable ability to use these skills in actual application - and always just points to other people for proof so the sham isn't exposed. Even his original WC family doesn't back up his new 'findings'!

Yet now somehow the tone is, if people are not using his borrowed snake engine ideas in their WC, they aren't doing WC right or have incomplete WC.. Haha, what a joke. Many people in the WC world don't see the same issues in their WC as this guy did - and thier WC just fine for them. Yet now that a few people also drank the koolaid, everyone should do so too - otherwise they are now what, sub-par in the 'new order's' opinion? It's great if mixing in outside animal snake and crane ideas has helped yours and a few others WC. But in the end, these ideas are still not WC. They are simply borrowed snake & crane ideas - which is why those terms still have to be used.

Good post

 

[geezer]

Just the term snake ENGINE seems weird to me. An engine creates energy yes, but some sort of powertrain needs to distribute it. Otherwise it's just wasted energy. Plus if WC is 200 years old what engines were around back then? Steam powered? I'm not calling you a liar but it kind of sounds made up too me? Is this something you named?

Jake, what a silly reply. I know it sounds like Hendrick has this in mind:

But of course there really are snake engines! Just look at these:

Obviously this is not a WC snake engine. It has a definite python-like quality and I suspect it has more of a grappling, constricting application.

Now how about this one for a striking art:

Now once you learn this technique, don't bother testing it in sparring. Just go to a lab and have it scientifically tested!

BTW make sure it's the same lab that has proven the existence of Qi, which as Hendrick has pointed out in the past, is a scientific fact.

 

[Jake104]

Jake, what a silly reply. I know it sounds like Hendrick has this in mind:

View attachment 19318

But of course there really are snake engines! Just look at these:

View attachment 19316

Obviously this is not a WC snake engine. It has a definite python-like quality and I suspect it has more of a grappling, constricting application.

Now how about this one for a striking art:

View attachment 19317

Now once you learn this technique, don't bother testing it in sparring. Just go to a lab and have it scientifically tested!

BTW make sure it's the same lab that has proven the existence of Qi, which as Hendrick has pointed out in the past, is a scientific fact.

Lol. best post ever!