Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Based on your history here, that is doubtful... how many times have you left or left forever so far?
Jan Dai lik (forward elbow intention)
- Thread starter kung fu fighter
- Start date
Based on your history here, that is doubtful... how many times have you left or left forever so far?
I don't really want to be invested in this whole argument, but in fairness to what Hendrik is trying to say I thought I would reply as I believe I understand what he is trying to express. From what I see in the video is what in White Crane we call the "Wheel Body". Now obviously in Hendrik's video the movement is smaller. generally in practice the movement would be large and in application it would be small. IMO I think the confusion comes from the terminology used "Mechanical" vs. "Hydraulic". I personally have always just classified it as Horizontal and Vertical Wheel Body. Horizontal Wheel Body emanates from the feet to waist to the back before being expressed through the hands, with the waist being the primary area of generation. Vertical Wheel Body emanates from the feet to waist to back before being expressed through the hands, with the back being the primary area of generation.
Horizontal Wheel Body has force that is parallel to the ground, like a stone for grinding grain. Vertical Wheel Body has force that is perpendicular to the ground, like a water wheel. Both are best utilized with a rolling and whipping motion, but horizontal is generally used more defensively and at long range while vertical is more offensive and used at short range. That is what I see, don't know if Hendrik will agree and to be honest don't care, without further breakdown it is impossible to determine the mechanics involved to compare similarity, but outwardly it appears the same to me and is a valid method of generation. I don't know if it commonly practiced in Yong Chun, but it is predominant in White Crane and is an integral aspect of "Trembling".
Lastly I wanted to add that Horizontal Wheel Body is about torque and leverage, Vertical Wheel Body is about compress and release.
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Here is the video that I made awhile back that I mentioned to Dave. This was even before I started studying CSL WCK through Alan Orr's online mentorship program. If you don't have the patience to watch the whole thing (and I wouldn't blame you for that!), at least check out the 12:45 mark. See if it doesn't look like I'm showing the same thing that Hendrik has been talking about on his recent videos.
Jake104
Black Belt
Yes! It's just basic Wing Chun body mechanics. Now I can say, I tried showing this to a fellow student who doesn't do WC in our mixed group. It was extremely hard for him to get the body mechanics right or in sync. So it's something that is harder than it looks for a beginner. But it's still a basic WC engine
). That's why I asked Hedrick if he can do it in a side position. Because to me what he is showing is the first layer of whatever we are calling it today. There are many more layers of WC energy. It becomes way more complex and interesting the deeper you go into this subject. I'm more interested in multiple energies at once. Different angles of energy or force manipulation. Non trackable energies. So on and so on.
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Jake104
Black Belt
Looks the same to me. Have you experimented with that while stepping back? I usually use a wall or tree. Something with no give. That will return the energy back. But I practice from a neutral shoulder width front facing stance and step back and use same hand as foot. So right foot goes back right hand delivers forward energy. I play with it to were there is no gap in forward energy. Trying to maintain constant forward while generating power without rebound from wall or tree. Another way I use the wall or tree is press or bow my stance into it while moving in any direction while constantly maintain forward. No gaps or forward energy pauses. This to me is important cause it makes me conscious of forward energy and teaches me how to recognize gaps or pauses. So when training with a partner I can track there forward and exploit any gaps or pauses and then take the opponents balance at that moment.
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mograph
Master of Arts
I've checked out this thread, and while I have nothing to say on what is old, what is new, what is WC, what is not, I do have an opinion on the understanding of terms in a cross-discipline way.
To my mind, "hydraulic" vs. "mechanical" is simply a metaphor: it's the practitioner's mental representation of the way he organizes the physical effort, not a description of the bio-mechanical components involved. Yes, the effort is still organized through electrical impulses, muscles, tendons and bones -- there's no way around that. But the speed, the relative simultaneity or sequence in which those components are engaged by the practitioner can be affected by his mental representation of the organization (or sequence) of that engagement. For example, a common mental representation is that of a whip, with the engagement moving from ground to hand. Some use animal movements to create mental representations, as we've seen. The mental representation is a tool to organize our effort. I think you guys know that. In my opinion, a "hydraulic" mental representation may lead to creating a shorter time lag between the engagement of each component.
Hey, whatever works. I just think that a lot of the irritation on this thread is due to misunderstandings, possibly cross-cultural.
Carry on, gents. Thanks for reading.
To my mind, "hydraulic" vs. "mechanical" is simply a metaphor: it's the practitioner's mental representation of the way he organizes the physical effort, not a description of the bio-mechanical components involved. Yes, the effort is still organized through electrical impulses, muscles, tendons and bones -- there's no way around that. But the speed, the relative simultaneity or sequence in which those components are engaged by the practitioner can be affected by his mental representation of the organization (or sequence) of that engagement. For example, a common mental representation is that of a whip, with the engagement moving from ground to hand. Some use animal movements to create mental representations, as we've seen. The mental representation is a tool to organize our effort. I think you guys know that. In my opinion, a "hydraulic" mental representation may lead to creating a shorter time lag between the engagement of each component.
Hey, whatever works. I just think that a lot of the irritation on this thread is due to misunderstandings, possibly cross-cultural.
Carry on, gents. Thanks for reading.
Wing Chun Auckland
Green Belt
Good video.
I am really against the elbows in idea for many reasons. Not least of which is all the unnecessary tension it brings.
As far as elbows with forward intent goes, I used to train to always aim the hands and elbows at the partners center. The problem with thinking the elbows forward is that it kind of encourages you to push your shoulder forward. You have to think about the actual path your elbow takes in all movements. It arcs. It's circular. If you think in those terms more, then your shoulder joint is just rotating and you are not trying to put something extra into it. By something extra, I mean that desire to push the whole shoulder forward and add extra unnecessary tension.
I am really against the elbows in idea for many reasons. Not least of which is all the unnecessary tension it brings.
As far as elbows with forward intent goes, I used to train to always aim the hands and elbows at the partners center. The problem with thinking the elbows forward is that it kind of encourages you to push your shoulder forward. You have to think about the actual path your elbow takes in all movements. It arcs. It's circular. If you think in those terms more, then your shoulder joint is just rotating and you are not trying to put something extra into it. By something extra, I mean that desire to push the whole shoulder forward and add extra unnecessary tension.
