It's time to promote the Kenpo Grand Masters

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka


One way to do this is to promote Mr. Parker to 12th to allow others to grow their rank to 10th and beyond.

people only do this because of their PERSONAL GAIN and it doesn't have anything to do with RESPECTING or APPRECIATING or whatever word you want to put for Ed Parker

it is not a good intention.

This promotion based on proven competitive victories works pretty well in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where if you train long and hard and beat a Gracie Black Belt in competition, you get promoted. This just happened this week after Brown Belt Eddie Bravo submitted 5thDan Royler Gracie at the ADCC submission wrestling championship in Saulo Paolo. Eddie Bravo was deservedly promoted to Black Belt.

only a black belt ??? you or these people must be KIDDING me. I expect this guy to have 6 degree blackbelt why?

he just kicked 5th black belt A.S.S. There is something wrong with this Royler Gracie guy. Can't fight against a brown belt guy ?????

if you are telling me that this is a competition ONLY and if this happens in LIFE, Royler will kick EDDIE A.S.S

if SO, the whole idea of promoting people based on their ability to kick somebody's A.S.S is NO GOOD. Why?

1- you learn martial art because you want to defense yourself or other good reasons. You don't learn it because you want to run around and kick somebody A.S.S

2-Gracie's family has a terrible idea. These people claims that their style is good because they challenge everybody and beat the h.e.l.l out of them. Come on NOW, The only people who accept Gracie's family challenge are NOTHING but a bunch of arrogant and stupid guys who want to PROVE something.

i'll be impressed and ABSOLUTELY call Gracie people my GRANDMASTER if they can beat PROFESSOR CHOW or any TRUE SHAOLIN MONKS or BRUCE LEE or GRANDMASTER of KARATE or JUJITSU in Japan

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works? After all, we are too at peace with ourselves to get in street fights....

If you're ever in Las Vegas, go to a club called Dylan's and ask the AKKI black belts on staff there if this stuff works on the street. Or call up Mr. Paul Mills and ask him about his around-20 years of experience using this stuff in a rough-n-tumble nightclub.

How do we know if any of our Black Belts are any good?

Can they hit with power, speed, and accuracy? Can they easily control the level of damage they can inflict? Can they alter the severity of a situation by being aware of and using their options?

We need a rank standard that is proveable. When you go into a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school and you see a Black Belt, you know he can effectively use his art to defeat lower belts and defend himself on the streets. When you see stripes on a BJJ black belt you know that he can effectively use BJJ to defeat most lower ranking black belts. You know that these people TEST their skills and all of their techniques against actual resisting opponents regularly.

You compare the standards of a system designed for and geared towards self-preservation with those of an art primarily designed for competition?

What do you know when you see Kenpo stripes? That the Black Belt can do a pretty kata, can recite chapter and verse from Infinite Insights, can do techniques really fast when the dummy reacts exactly as he is supposed to?

That's a pretty big generalization you just put on a lot of folks there, to insinuate that AK BB's can't use their skills.

Can a Kenpo Black Belt really make his Kenpo work?

There is indeed a proving ground for this; I grew up in it, and it sure as Hell isn't a mat, or the Octagan, or a Vale Tudo ring. It's the street. No rules, no time limits, no judges, no padding.

I just think we listen to ourselves talk too much. We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and seek a way to validate our dogma in the real world.

For someone who seems rather obsessed with the issue of rank, you sure do contradict yourself with that last statement there.

Now for the breakdown.....there is no ONE grandmaster anymore, there is no ONE association, and there is no ONE standard. People will do what they feel is best for them, period. And as a martial artist, honor demands that you respect the path of others, as long as it is not detrimental to your own path and good intentions. For some, the standard is higher; for others, it is lower. However, I've found that more positive forward movement is found in doing your own thing, rather than sitting around on a computer worrying about everyone else's rank.

Just my thoughts. I won't sugarcoat them, and sometimes the truth hurts. However ( as KenpoJoe would say ), it is STILL the truth.

'Nuff said.

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Some of us sure seem obsessed with competing, along with the Gracie family. Last time I checked, I couldn't compete at the local tournaments because not only would the movements I've trained to execute ( on the street, as AK is designed for ) be illegal in competition, but they could very possibly injure, maim, or even kill an opponent. I suppose I should take off my black belt now, since I can't compete to ' prove my worth ' as a Kenpo BB.

What a drag. :idunno:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Old Fat Kenpoka, why would it be necessary for a higher rank for SGM Parker??? He is the founder and creator of A.K.K , isn't that enough??? There is no 11th,12th, or 13th Dan in existence, and for very good reasons. If there were it would never stop, there would be guys out there proclaiming themselves as a 15th Degree Black Belt. I understand that you want to pay respect to Mr.Parker, but honestly it isn't necessary, the man is looked upon as a genius, and one of the greatest martial artists in history. As far as the so called other 10th degree BB go, I don't remember Mr.Parker promoting them to that level, does anybody else????????????????????????

With Respect,
KenpoDragon:asian:

I believe there are higher ranks in some other styles. One fellow, I have had dealings with from PA., holds something like 15th Dan in Ninjutsu, I'm not sure which system.
Having said that, I would have to agree with Mr. Billings, that 10th is what EP designed and therefore should remain as the top of the tree. As to the others not caring about what hangs around their waists, if that were true, then they themselves would not have 10th dan after their names. After all, if Mr. Parker was the only 10th, then who promoted these guys after he died? Who would be qualified to promote to 10th if the only true 10th is dead?

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.

Look at most of the Tae Kwon Do schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo instruction? Look at the United Studios of Self Defense or Villari Kenpo schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo? Of course not.

But how would the unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree? How would they know that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt? People are fooled by degrees.

Competitive track record is a better indicator: So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc. If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more compelling than belt degrees?

If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record. Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me.

All this shows is that BB can do sports kenpo according to the rules laid out by X tournament organizers. It would not show anything toward judging whether or not his AK was any good.
--Dave

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.

a good point. We don't know but I KNOW this....the TRUTH will eventually come out. We will decide whether to stay or not.

USE YOUR HEAD

But how would the unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree? How would they know that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt? People are fooled by degrees.

another good point. There is 1 way to settle this issue and that IS
if you think i'm no good, why do you and I walk out side and FIGHT?

if I kick your A.S.S, you SHOULD NEVER EVER come to see me again and please do not event mention about our fight

if you kick my A.S.S, your experiences and skills speak for themselves

Competitive track record is a better indicator: So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc. If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more compelling than belt degrees?

If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record. Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me.

everybody has their point of view about choosing the instructor. But REMEMBER this

In the tournament, we are looking for SCORE. You get more SCORES, you WIN.

In the STREET, there is no SCORE. Baseball bat, knive, everything goes. We are looking for SURVIVAL.

and it only takes less than 1 minute to know if we survive or not in the STREET WHILE it takes more than 30 MINTUES to know who Wins in TOURNAMENT

 

[roryneil]

Isn't promotion at higher ranks what the AKSC was designed for? A group of higher level belts from different associations brought together for high level promotion? If more people would be involved that would be great. But then I suppose that many would be against the AKSC due to the fact that they wouldn't get their 10th or whatever, or maybe would be deemed a good green belt possibly.

 

[Michael Billings]

That is exactly what they were set up to do. Unfortunatly there were and are some problems.

1. Not everyone was invited, notably some of the highest ranking belts in the United States.

2. Not everyone "stuck to their guns" and the Senior Counsel could not tell another 7th that he could not promote his own students.

3. Curriculum inconsistancies remained.

4. It fragmented as new Associations came into being who did not "Buy off" on the AKSC to start with.

5. Sr. Counsel members accepted rank from other sources than the Sr. Counsel.

Having said that, it was a great idea to have an umbrella organization sanctioning promotions of 4th Black and above. This should have ensured some consistancy and quality control for that level. It fell apart (another thread all together) or at least lost it's original internal consistancy. It survives after a fashion and member schools subscribe to it's standards ... there just are not that many member schools to my knowledge.

Unfortunate outcome of a fine beginning. It was an awsome camp at which the whole thing was started. I have never been in the company of so many Black Belts. One of my guys tested for 1st Black, I got to see Mr. LaBounty and Mr. Kelly bumped from 7th to 9th, by enough of the Kenpo community of Seniors for anyone to acknowledge and accept the validity. However, Mr. Kelly and LaBounty have remained 9th's, while some of the promoting 7th's are now 10th.

I ramble ... I will stop!

Oss!

 

[roryneil]

No, please go on. Very informative. Maybe that's what the IKKA is aiming at becoming.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
That is exactly what they were set up to do. Unfortunatly there were and are some problems.

1. Not everyone was invited, notably some of the highest ranking belts in the United States.

2. Not everyone "stuck to their guns" and the Senior Counsel could not tell another 7th that he could not promote his own students.

3. Curriculum inconsistancies remained.

4. It fragmented as new Associations came into being who did not "Buy off" on the AKSC to start with.

5. Sr. Counsel members accepted rank from other sources than the Sr. Counsel.

Having said that, it was a great idea to have an umbrella organization sanctioning promotions of 4th Black and above. This should have ensured some consistancy and quality control for that level. It fell apart (another thread all together) or at least lost it's original internal consistancy. It survives after a fashion and member schools subscribe to it's standards ... there just are not that many member schools to my knowledge.

Unfortunate outcome of a fine beginning. It was an awsome camp at which the whole thing was started. I have never been in the company of so many Black Belts. One of my guys tested for 1st Black, I got to see Mr. LaBounty and Mr. Kelly bumped from 7th to 9th, by enough of the Kenpo community of Seniors for anyone to acknowledge and accept the validity. However, Mr. Kelly and LaBounty have remained 9th's, while some of the promoting 7th's are now 10th.

I ramble ... I will stop!

Oss!

Michael,

I do not think it is rambling when you are making sense. So many issues, so few people willing and/or able to equate resolution.

Sso!

 

[lonekimono]

to take the stripes off of your belt,,, well what are you saying about your art?? now i do agree with alot that i read on this post
but not the above!! (but thats just me) i have always said
"stay true to your art" for if one was to take the strips off, than the style or system would have a void in it, now i know it might be a personal thing for one's self!! but still there would be alot of explaining to your student's as why the sensei can do that.
just something to think about.:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Lonekimono:

I am true to my art. However, my art is not a religion. I do not believe in martial-arts-miracles. I will not follow my art without question as some do their religion.

I removed my stripes for several reasons: 1) I want to be humble. I want respect but not reverence. 2) After all these years, I still want to be a student. 3) It is less embarrasing when I get my *** kicked by Brazilian Jiu Jitsu underbelts.

 

[lonekimono]

Well i see you have your own reason's for doing what you do
and that's fine, but to get your *** kicked by anyone???
what is up with that??? i'll stop here.

ps. try not to get beat up anymore :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Lonekimono:

Since BJJ people train by sparring, you get your *** kicked every time you train with someone with more experience and better technique. Since they are not striking, it doesn't hurt too bad. You just have to "tap" to indicate submission to chokes and armbars. When you are stuck in an armbar or choke, you tap before you get hurt, but you have no doubt that you just got your *** kicked. Since you typically spar for an hour or more each time you train, you can wind up getting your *** kicked 40 or 50 times a day when you first start out.

As you train more, you learn to defend better, you learn to hold your position. Eventually, you learn to dominate and submit your opponents. You test your skills each and every minute you train and there is no nonsense about rank. Only what you and everyone else can see about how you are doing at that moment against your current opponent.

 

[lonekimono]

Well lets see ,i don't know if your name really is who you are (lol)
don't get mad only joking with you.
but i have to tell you that if you got that rank in kenpo than i don't see why you would want to do something other than KENPO
now don't get me wrong i know there are alot of arts out there
and like Mr Parker said "there is good in all arts" but for the last 38 years it is kenpo,,,, "my mother art" anyway stay stong and watch out for your back when you hit the floor.

how do we know that the sky is blue, because we are told!!!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Lonekimono:

I started Kenpo in 1973. I loved it. In many ways I still do. It is now and will always be my primary style. At the beginning, I was passionate about training, learning, improving. My Kenpo skills peaked between 1990 and 1993 when I got my 3rd Dan. The Dojo I trained at closed at the beginning of 1995 after the owner's other business went belly up.

In 1995, I became journeyman. I visited and joined many Kenpo and Karate schools after that. I wanted to learn new stuff, but everywhere I went, people knew me, insisted I wear my rank, and asked me to teach. Like an old rock star tired of performing his hits from the early 70's, I got tired of doing the same drills, same techniques, same katas. I had to do something different to regain the vigor and passion of my youth. I needed to start over in an art where I didn't know anything, where I could learn something totally new and different. I also needed to go to a school where they didn't recognize me, didn't want me to wear my Black Belt with all the stripes, didn't want me to teach their classes for them .

After a long search, I discovered BJJ. I have rediscovered the passion that has been missing from my last few years in Kenpo. And, I've discovered a totally new and different philosophy of movement and rank evaluation.

In BJJ, I've discovered that many of the principals I've held as basic facts might not be as true as my Kenpo brethren and myself previously believed. For instance, I thought Kenpo undersood weight distribution and the application of mass -- "the Marriage of Gravity." Two lessons into BJJ, I realized that Kenpo isn't married to gravity--it is just flirting and that the BJJ folks are really married to gravity.

None of the BJJ guys I roll with know anything about Kenpo. They don't know how it is so much different and so much more than regular J/O Karate. And they don't care. They just want to get you on the ground, get a superior position, and make you submit. And that in and of itself is impressive: no argument about which style is better, which way a technique should be done. Just get on the mat and do it. Comparing the BJJ perception of reality and all the Kenpo talk about this and that association and this and that 10thDan is what lead me to start this thread.

P.S. as far as my "Old Fat Kenpoka" name goes, I am not using my real name so as not imply any connection or endorsement from my association, instructors, peers, or students re this debate. As far as "Old": I am 42, not old by Kenpo standards, but way up there among my BJJ class mates. As far as "Fat" goes, I am 5'10" with broad shoulders and a 48" chest. I've had a 42" waist since before getting my 2nd Dan. After only my first two months doing BJJ I got down to a 38"--the same as when I was in college.

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by lonekimono
but to get your *** kicked by anyone???
what is up with that??? i'll stop here.

ps. try not to get beat up anymore :asian:

an EXCELLENCE POINT. I haven't heard something like this for CENTURY

i didn't realize that people are proud of being American and even PROUDER to tell other their A.S.S got kicked. Can't beat it

Crank up the VOLUME, young BOY. I like it

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by lonekimono


but i have to tell you that if you got that rank in kenpo than i don't see why you would want to do something other than KENPO

that is something I never understand when I look at some Kempo/Kenpo guys.

Their resume is very impressive. They learn a lot of Arts including Kempo/Kenpo.

i would like to know what art you will use to defense yourself on the street ??????

please do not tell me that you will use all the arts you have learned to defense yourself because it will be the most ridiculous thing i ever hear.

tell me about that and i will let you know why it is a JOKE

can't wait to laugh out loud. I'm waiting

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

webpage20022003: What's with all the hate man?

As far as getting beaten during training, don't you ever get pointed when you spar? Don't you ever spar against someone much much more proficient than you? Doesn't that person kick your ***? Isn't it fun sparring with someone really really good?

 

[roryneil]

I don't like the analogy that because a BJJ guy beat you at wrestling that BJJ is a superior art to Kenpo. That's bull. My friend is up there in Akido and always wants to spar. Frankly I am then at a disadvantage as I would be against BJJ, because they are GENTLER arts! I mean, did you gouge the guys eye and crush his testicles? Of course not. You had to play his game in his arena. Now if you are just talking about the workout, do what makes you feel the best. But you can't compare the effectiveness of the arts like that.