It's time to promote the Kenpo Grand Masters

[Touch Of Death]

I think if people would stop promoting eight year olds to black belt we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I agree, promoting 8 year olds to Black Belt is a crying shame. It really degrades an art. Since our founding in 1965, our school only promoted one 16 year old to Black Belt. He was phenomenal, mature, and his older brother was a Black Belt at our school. Everyone else had to be at least 18.

Just think how bad this problem would be if we had 8 year old Black Belts -- we'd have 21 year old 10th Dans!

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Just think how bad this problem would be if we had 8 year old Black Belts -- we'd have 21 year old 10th Dans!

Mmmmmm. Irony:wink:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[Seig]

Another issue that seems to be touched on but largely overlooked is that the way Mr. Parker laid out the black belt rankings, it would take at least 30 years active in the art to acheive 10th Degree. I am not saying that there are not those currently wearing it that have that amount of time in. There are certainly those without the time though. It seems to me that one of the main requisites that Mr. Parker laid out in addition to physical and mental mastery of the art was also contributions and propogation of the art. That opens the argument that a lot of the people wearing the art are in fact propogating to a large degree, but are they really contributing to it? Let's look at some examples of what I mean by contributing. Who created what forms? Who created what techniques? Who created what sets? Those are definitive contributions to the art. They were based on the Kenpo principles and logic and enhanced the art. They were developped, refined, accepted and then added to the curriculum. How many people have actually done these things? I think things like this go a lot farther to legitimizing a 10th Degree than simply the, " I was there and you weren't" arguments that seem to be the defensive posture that some take.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I think there are some people out there that are trying to evolve EPAK to continue to be effective. Some of them are exploring the knife worls, some others are taking it to a new level...

And it should be easier if there was no stripes in a belt unless for ceremonies. Down in the mat, you are just as good as your technique/knowledge shows.

Ed Parker changed so many things in kenpo from the beginning, thaat for many people in the 60s it would be hard to recognized kenpo today. so why all the fuss about Ed Parker said this and that, and wanted this to be exactly this way? He changed his mind as more knowledge and insight was gained.

Kenpo is not perfect, and thus has room to improvements.

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Can we get back to training now?

 

[lonekimono]

HE SAID /SHE SAID,, ALL I KNOW IS THAT I MYSELF HAVE BEEN DOING KENPO SINCE 1965 AND I WAS THERE THEN AND I'M STILL HERE, AND I WAS THERE WHEN MR PARKER WAS LAID TO REST.
AND AFTER THAT ALL HELL BROKE LOSE,LET'S NOT GO THERE
BECAUSE THERE WAS ALOT OF SH$# THAT WENT DOWN THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH AND I KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.
BUT LOOK PEOPLE WE ARE STILL HERE, LET'S MOVE FORWARD
ABOUT THE RANK THING, I DON'T CARE WHO WEARS WHAT BECAUSE THERE WILL BE A TIME WHEN THAT PERSON WILL HAVE TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP
AND TO GIVE A YOUNG PERSON A BLACKBELT( I MEAN 8) NOT IN MY SCHOOL, BUT BECAUSE SOME OTHER PERSON WILL DO THAT
SO WHAT. "KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW KNOW WHY IT'S SO"

I LEAVE IT AT THAT:asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Lone Kimono: I think your caps-lock key is busted.

Anyway, I totally agree with you that the whole advanced rank thing is nonsense and that people need to put up or shut up. That is one of the points I have been trying to make with this thread.

And yes. an 8 year old Black Belt is a totally ridiculous concept.

 

[lonekimono]

i;m sorry about the caps i was to busy to notice, and thank you.
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Everyone may want to review the KenpoNet thread on this topic before replying.

It can be very tongue-in-cheek on some level, while other's treat it with great seriousness.

I personally think it ludicrous to create new belts higher than 10th. When you are there, you are there ... At that level I am not sure why they, you, or I would need 'reinforcement' or 'acknowledgment' of a higher rank. The matter of titles or positions withing an organization or the KenpoWorld is another issue and open to change.

Oss,
-Michael

A couple of things. I posted under Mr. Billings quote because I agree with his assessment.

First at the least, leave it alone but also recognize it for what it is. Rank doesn't represent knowledge or skill. And the rank of 10th as far as I am concerned is an "honorary" rank necessitated by position and was created for it's commercial applications before Ed Parker formed an organization. When you have large amounts of students you have to promote for one reason or another, sooner or later you're going to be a 10th.

Even in the traditional arts the numerical designations are not as important as the attendant titles. In these groups the person with the most experience is looked upon as the senior regardless of numerical ranking. Here younger ranking black belts yield to the older more experienced individuals. It would not be unusual for the individual called "sensei" to be a lower numerical rank than some he might teach. Many "masters" ignored rank for various reasons. Small intimate groups do not require rank because everyone knows everyone else and their position within the group. Everyone knows who the teacher is, so he doesn't "need" to be a 10th or the "grandmaster." It is a given.

Parker didn't personally care about rank either, nor did he ever refer to himself as any type of "master," grand or otherwise. But he also knew once you start down that road of large organizations and rewarding many many students with rank for various reasons, it's the obvious results. Parker himself never wore rank or stripes until he was 7th, and that was at the urgings of students who of course wanted to wear their rank. He "pushed" them up and they in turn "pushed" him up by necessesity. Large commercial organizations are obligated by circumstancial necessity. Remember it was Parker himself in reference to his own students who said, "Just because the red shows does't mean that you know." There are many who have been around a long time who don't necessarily know more than some of the more recent students.

From my perspective people like Mr. Billings and Mr. Conatser are not even close to being "seniors," but it is clear to me these men are intelligent, insightful, and probably could run rings around some really high ranking people above them and not even wrinkle their brow.

Parker himself dropped the "dan" designations in the sixties and was moving toward the no belt Chinese model from his interaction and study with Chinese Masters, but realized the belt ranks had a commercial application that could not be denied, and switched to "degrees" for his American commercial system.

He purposely moved away from those designations because he knew their meanings should be diffrent in an "Americanized" structure. Even one of his original Chinese teachers had a colored sash system in place because his school was open to the public, and others followed as well in commercial gung fu schools like the created American Kenpo sister San Soo. So the die was cast and the results was a forseeable circumstance.

In our curriculum, all numerical ranks are considered "honorary and/or emeritus." They are there for longevity, service, or position as necessary but have no direct relationship to the curriculum or its teaching. No one regardless of their numerical rank may numerically promote anyone for any reason.

What is important is the certifications issued with "titles" that have legitimate sanctioned and recognized meanings. Than if a person wants to teach they must have an additional "teaching credential" for specific parts of the curriculum over and above their certificated title. I have black belts ranks with no titles and who are not certified to teach. When you go to school and get a degree, all that means is you passed the requirements. It doesn't mean you can teach and it doesn't impart any title beyond the appropriate "graduate." I have people who only wanted to take the classes and who were not interested in anything else.

I do not ever use the title of "Grandmaster" and it bothers me to be referred to as such. Let me be clear, I hate it. Ed Parker IS the Grandmaster. If you claim to do American Kenpo, you should find another title. We use academic titles and that uses the term "Master of ...." But we move from there to basically "professor, senior professor, to senior master professor at 9th. There are no higher titles. The 10th rank is there but I do not use or wear it.

Now to address the Lee question. Lee learned from Parker, not the other way around. Parker was already studying longer with legitmate Chinese Masters than Bruce Lee had. Bruce studied about 4 years and developed his rep as a "fighter" as a young teenager on the streets in Hong Kong. Than he began teaching at 19 when he went to college in Washington State. When he did his famous demo at the IKC, he was a 24 year old kid who was showing common Chinese Concepts that wowed the mostly Japanese traditionalists. Parker recognized "talent" not knowledge. Wally Jay said the same thing in print. (Paraphrasing),"Very talented kid, but he didn't really know that much." Anyone with the opportunity to see that footage would not be impressed today. I used to show it to people when it was in my possesion, and it was universally seen as "boring."

In fact Parker's student Inosanto, taught Lee much of his weapons and gave him insight into the Philipino Arts that he took to the screen. Danny was more knowledgeable than Bruce, but Bruce's group was very small, non-commercial and created training and study possibilities that were not possible in the direction Parker was moving toward.

A simple reminder that what Parker taught in his commercial schools is not what he himself did, and that is why some have had difficulty replicating his results. A look at the old video and film makes that obvious. Parker used pak-sao, lap-sao, chi-sao, energy drains, wipes, misalignments, and pressure point nerve cavities like crazy .... and nobody seem to notice. And none of those things are mentioned anywhere after his first 2 books. He simply stopped talking about it because it didn't fit his commercial vision.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sounds fair to me...and just to keep the discussion going, are those who want to raise Mr. Parker's rank really talking about elevating him (and why do that?) or about elevating themselves? I mean this, of course, in the sense that Gene Wilder uses in "Young Frankenstein," when he says, "Elevate me."

Thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

My amp goes to 11, when I need that extra umph.

 

[twinkletoes]

I think OKF has touched upon a scary but related concept that we haven't directly referenced yet.

Ed Parker intended for Kenpo to keep developing as an art.

This makes for some difficulties. The other people who come immediately to mind that wanted the same for their arts are Bruce Lee and Remy Presas. Let's look at their cases:

Bruce Lee's followers are now generally grouped into Original JKD (teaching to kick as Bruce kicked and move as Bruce moved) and JKD Concepts (use his ideas of experimentation and experience to draw one's own conclusions). The OJKD guys are criticized for stagnancy, while they criticize the JKDC guys for inconsistency. It's all crazy.

Remy Presas told us repeatedly at camps in the years immediately preceding has passing that Modern Arnis was a "dynamic" art and curriculum, which in his mind meant that it should not stop developing at any time. He appointed 7 Masters to take the helm, and so far, 6 are still together (though several other organizations have emerged). They have pinned down a curriculum that expresses everything Prof. Presas was teaching in his last few years, but now the question will be "What next?"

So how does all this come to bear for the Kenpoka out there? Well, I think the question is, when you have been a 10th Dan for longer than Mr. Parker was (while alive, of course), what will you be "supposed to think" about kenpo? What will be the next logical ideas for the course of kenpo? What new developments will be next? Certainly Mr. Parker would have kept developing Kenpo, filling in gaps, updating training methods, introducing new ideas. When you claim to be the rank that he was, that's your job now. So what is supposed to come next?

~TT