Too funny!

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by jeffkyle

...They were giving him evil looks and such and they started talking trash to him. He simply reached over and grabbed his pistol and pointed it in their direction. He said they couldn't get away from him fast enough...they took off like you wouldn't believe. Another trouble situation averted.

I don't want to get into yet another debate about gun control, but as the "kids" (and I assume you mean teens and/or twenty-somethings, not 8- and 9-year-olds) were only "talking trash" and not actively threatening him with weapons and/or bodily harm, couldn't the "trouble situation" have been as easily averted by ignoring them? Since he made the first move to threaten them, one of them could have stealthily pulled out his own gun and shot your father, and the action would have easily been defended in court.

A wise man once said, "your favorite word in the English language should be EXIT." (The context refers to armed opponents, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, assuming an opponent is armed is usually a good strategy, and, in my opinion, the advice is pretty darned good even when your opponent is unarmed.)

Rich

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by SingingTiger

I don't want to get into yet another debate about gun control, but as the "kids" (and I assume you mean teens and/or twenty-somethings, not 8- and 9-year-olds) were only "talking trash" and not actively threatening him with weapons and/or bodily harm, couldn't the "trouble situation" have been as easily averted by ignoring them? Since he made the first move to threaten them, one of them could have stealthily pulled out his own gun and shot your father, and the action would have easily been defended in court.

A wise man once said, "your favorite word in the English language should be EXIT." (The context refers to armed opponents, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, assuming an opponent is armed is usually a good strategy, and, in my opinion, the advice is pretty darned good even when your opponent is unarmed.)

Rich

I left that part out, on accident. Yes it was teenagers and even possibly gang members. MY father is not one who looks for trouble, but he is a good fighter and he knows it. There aren't many people that he has came across that he wasn't confident he couldn't at least hurt real bad. Since you have made me think about the story some more, i believe it was more than them just talking. I think 1 or 2 of them was hanging out the car and at one point I believe they threw something at his vehicle. He obviously thought it was getting out of control and that is why he did what he did. I believe it was to diffuse the situation WAY before it got any worse, like them attempting to run him off the road, so they could do harm to him. And obviously it wasn't too important to them to risk having possibly more harm to them than they could do to him.

 

[satans.barber]

I absolutely am not going to agree with you people.

You'v been brought up with it, it's part of your culture...fair enough.

The American 'right to bear arms' is considered a joke by much of the civilised world, I don't think it's anything to be proud of.

Yes, your forefathers probably needed to carry guns, I mean, what else would they have shot all the Native Americans with?

Sorry, am I being cyncical now? Oh dear. I just don't find that a good excuse for the state of the gun culture in America.

I'm not anti-guns by the way, I own two myself, but they're not for shooting people with.

I'm not going to carry on with this thread because it's going to desend into a political **** slinging match very quickly, and I don't have the time, energy or inclination.

Ian.

 

[brianhunter]

["I absolutely am not going to agree with you people."

That absolutely fine....you can disagree with someone and still like them. We also have this thing that comes up right before the right to bear arms in our constitution....its the freedom on speech (probably a joke to the rest of the civilised world as you would put it) But I enjoy having it also. We can agree to disagree.


["The American 'right to bear arms' is considered a joke by much [of the civilised world, I don't think it's anything to be proud of."

I do think its something to be proud of, I enjoy any freedom Im given and Im proud of each and every one. Some countries have told men they can or can't grow a beard, who must wear a yellow star of david when going out in public. I consider that more of a joke and a disservice to the human race. but then again this is the rest of the "civilised world" Im sure they knew what they where doing.

["Yes, your forefathers probably needed to carry guns, I mean, [what else would they have shot all the Native Americans with?"

Wow! Maybe some of our forefathers where the native americans? I know of at least one on this board that belongs to a tribe still. Im sure the Brittish quartering soldiers in our homes had nothing to do with it...they where so civilised they used sling shots and bubble gum to do it because they where so much higher on the civilised hiearchy chain.

[Sorry, am I being cyncical now? Oh dear. I just don't find that a [good excuse for the state of the gun culture in America.

I think the term "gun culture" needs explaining. This sounds like a label and a media led sterotype to me. I know I believe everything I see on tv or in read in the news! You should too!

["I'm not anti-guns by the way, I own two myself, but they're not [for shooting people with."

So are you are saying ours are?? Is your gun labeled "wabbits only" or maybe "target practice only" How do I get one of those special guns of yours that you don't shoot people with! I know the one I take to work everyday always nails somebody before the end of the day.. it sure would be nice to find the non-people shooting version they must have sold to you

["I'm not going to carry on with this thread because it's going to [desend into a political **** slinging match very quickly, and I [don't have the time, energy or inclination."

okay See you around

 

[Zoran]

Many states have laws against carrying and owning guns. The problem is, criminals don't abide by the law.:shrug:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by brianhunter

["I absolutely am not going to agree with you people."

That absolutely fine....you can disagree with someone and still like them. We also have this thing that comes up right before the right to bear arms in our constitution....its the freedom on speech (probably a joke to the rest of the civilised world as you would put it) But I enjoy having it also. We can agree to disagree.


["The American 'right to bear arms' is considered a joke by much [of the civilised world, I don't think it's anything to be proud of."

I do think its something to be proud of, I enjoy any freedom Im given and Im proud of each and every one. Some countries have told men they can or can't grow a beard, who must wear a yellow star of david when going out in public. I consider that more of a joke and a disservice to the human race. but then again this is the rest of the "civilised world" Im sure they knew what they where doing.

["Yes, your forefathers probably needed to carry guns, I mean, [what else would they have shot all the Native Americans with?"

Wow! Maybe some of our forefathers where the native americans? I know of at least one on this board that belongs to a tribe still. Im sure the Brittish quartering soldiers in our homes had nothing to do with it...they where so civilised they used sling shots and bubble gum to do it because they where so much higher on the civilised hiearchy chain.

[Sorry, am I being cyncical now? Oh dear. I just don't find that a [good excuse for the state of the gun culture in America.

I think the term "gun culture" needs explaining. This sounds like a label and a media led sterotype to me. I know I believe everything I see on tv or in read in the news! You should too!

["I'm not anti-guns by the way, I own two myself, but they're not [for shooting people with."

So are you are saying ours are?? Is your gun labeled "wabbits only" or maybe "target practice only" How do I get one of those special guns of yours that you don't shoot people with! I know the one I take to work everyday always nails somebody before the end of the day.. it sure would be nice to find the non-people shooting version they must have sold to you

["I'm not going to carry on with this thread because it's going to [desend into a political **** slinging match very quickly, and I [don't have the time, energy or inclination."

okay See you around

Great points! I don't feel the need to even add to it! :asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Zoran

Many states have laws against carrying and owning guns. The problem is, criminals don't abide by the law.:shrug:

And the other problem is that Criminals are EVERYWHERE!

 

[Michael Billings]

I am pro concealed carry, yes I live in Texas, and no I have never shot anyone, or even pulled a gun on someone. If I pulled it, it would be to save someone's life, or my own. Reciprocity regarding concealed carry with other states, is on the rise, and it is true the violent crime rate is decreasing in Texas.

Great responsibilities go with the power to take life. As martial artists, I assume everyone on this board knows the potential lethality of Kenpo. Remember "Acceptance" is the first environmental consideration. The potential for harm, and protection, is in each of us.

Not everyone should take martial arts, nor should everyone carry a gun. I don't want to sound trite or condesending, but "people really do kill people ... not guns". Other cultures may have a higher suicide rate (Japan) where feelings and giri (duty) are often in conflict. Rather than externalize the feelings, like in our society, those feelings are turned inward, with tragic results.

That being said, I disagree adamently about the US being a gun culture or a joke to the rest of the world, but I do not object to the personal opinion you hold, nor your right to express it. Most cultures tend to be ethnocentric about their on mores and values. America struggles with the experiment called democracy, but there are few places in the world where the standard of living, generally, equals this country's.

On a final note, in the 21st Century it appears terrorism is on the rise. If one passenger on any of the flights last year had a weapon, I venture to guess that at least one of the disasters we suffered would not have happened. Terrorism appears to be the next evolution of conflict that touches all countries. The UK has never been exempt from IRA, Middle Eastern, or Soviet Block countries attempts to disrupt or kill. An armed society should be a polite society ... especially if you don't know whose face you are getting into. Drugs, gangs, terrorism, etc. are our country's problems than need resolution - I won't discuss foriegn policy here, but most Americans are aware of the conflicts and difficulties that are inherant in the Anti-American sentiment prevelant in parts of the world.

Sorry, I did not want to rant, but my hackles stood up when we were identified as a "gun culture". Civil obediance is not part of our culture, but civil enforcement of laws protecting all of us is. This is a part of our culture to be proud of, not ashamed. Let us be the ones to make it more so as Martial Artists leading by example.

I feel that your post had been answered sufficiently, but the more I considered it, the more occured to me. I apologize for offending, if I did ... and you seldom, if ever see me as any kind of apologist (you know, like the kind of guy who slams you right after apologizing in advance, then has a closing that is "respectful" in a condosending way.) So I will just say "See ya later"

-Michael
UKS-Kenpo

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by satans.barber

I absolutely am not going to agree with you people.

You'v been brought up with it, it's part of your culture...fair enough.

The American 'right to bear arms' is considered a joke by much of the civilised world, I don't think it's anything to be proud of.

Yes, your forefathers probably needed to carry guns, I mean, what else would they have shot all the Native Americans with?

Sorry, am I being cyncical now? Oh dear. I just don't find that a good excuse for the state of the gun culture in America.

I'm not anti-guns by the way, I own two myself, but they're not for shooting people with.

I'm not going to carry on with this thread because it's going to desend into a political **** slinging match very quickly, and I don't have the time, energy or inclination.

Ian.

Stiff upper British lip and all that, eh wot??? Superior English Metal, eh wot? Throw a slam at a country and skip out , eh wot?

I suspect you're still upset that your German Mercenaries couldn't win the war for you ... oh when was it? Oh yes ... back in the 1770s? :lol: !

Your almost close to the continent of Europe, second cousin to the French, superiority is shining through, eh wot? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You aren't, perhaps, related to the late Princess Margaret are you? :lol:

Oh... I don't have time to get involved in a long discussion either. :lol:

Most of the time, I really enjoy your posts, but sometimes you come across as a pompous, pseudo-superior wannabe, um ... um ... PUTZ! :lol:

And as you can see, mostly laughable at that.

Take care,

Dan

 

[Brother John]

I usually like to read Ian's posts.
I don't believe that nation bashing belongs here though.
He's free to his thoughts and opinions, free to voice them and such. True...
we are free to click on the little option w/in the window of his Very negative attacks on the USA and click on "Report this post".
Just a thought...
I'd like to see Ian stick around, but I don't want to come to a martial arts forum just to be insulted and feel riled about someone badmouthing our country.
Your Brother (and Ian's)
John

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Please keep the discussion respectful. We have members of many nations, etc here.

Thank you.
:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by satans.barber

Oh dear.

OK, because we don't have a gun culture, we also don't have gun related violence (well, obviously there are the odd things that happen but it's not on a day to day basis), if someone is shot here then it's a big deal.

You seriously think that that is a shame? You'd rather have it like America where any kid can go buy a gun and then shoot classmates with it? Or where policemen approach car windows and then get shot in the chest for doing there job? Or, for that matter, where criminals are often shot back by the police, because of the threat they pose when armed with guns?

No, I don't think it's a 'shame' that "guns are so illegal in Britain", I think I'd like it to stay just as it is thankyou.

What Clyde said was blatantly ridiculous, I hope or your sake that he was joking.

Ian.

What's the difference between throwing someone off the balcony and shooting them...? The size of the mess afterward...? People will kill with or without firearms. According to stories I've heard from the Parker family, Mr. Parker used to keep a gun in his car for a long time. Did that make him a potential criminal?

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Please keep the discussion respectful. We have members of many nations, etc here.

Thank you.
:asian:

Sorry Kaith... I will cease and desist. I lived a number of years in England and actually have a love for the UK and a good number of close English friends. I just didn't really think the pomposity and elitism should go unchided. My apologies for any hurt feelings Ian, and to anyone else I may have offended.

Somedays you are the windshield, and somedays you are the bug!

Dan

 

[satans.barber]

/me sighs.

I knew this was going to happen.

People are skirting away from the issue here, as so often happens with these types of threads when people feel their national pride has been dented in some way.

Nutshell:

Clyde "It's a shame that guns are so illegal in the UK"
Me "I hope that was a joke"
Someone "Clyde wasn't joking"
Me "I don't think it's a bad thing, the fact that there's no gun culture* here means less gun related violence and killings."

* gun culture meaning the buying, selling , trading and use of guns for the purposes of crime, murder, house defense.....whatever.

Then, American pride kicks in:

You lot "It's good that we carry guns, our forefathers did it, we can shoot terrorists etc etc and by the way stop being so stuck up and British about it blah blah".

My point is simply this, you can't solve the gun problem (for those of you that will admit that there is a problem) by having MORE guns, that simply makes the situation worse. Since we don't have this problem, it could only be introduced by introducing guns, do you not see that?

Also, what do you mean if someone on the plane had had a gun then 9/11 wouldn't have happened...err, couldn't the terrorists just have walked on with guns then anyway? They were willing to die, so I doubt the thought of someone else plucking up courage to shoot them would have dissuaded them.

Sigung,

"Stiff upper British lip and all that, eh wot??? Superior English Metal, eh wot? Throw a slam at a country and skip out , eh wot?"

And you lot accuse /me/ of pandering to media stereotypes?

"Your almost close to the continent of Europe"

Guess what bright spark, we're actually in Europe.

"sometimes you come across as a pompous, pseudo-superior wannabe"

Fancy, can you cite some examples cos I'm intrigued now. If you knew me you would never call me that, and if you asked any of my friends if I was 'pompous' they'd no doubt piss themselves laughing. What makes you say that?

Brother John,

"we are free to click on the little option w/in the window of his Very negative attacks on the USA and click on "Report this post".
Just a thought..."

If you must, although I don't feel I've said anything wrong, nor infact anything *subjective* yet.

Billy,

"What's the difference between throwing someone off the balcony and shooting them...? The size of the mess afterward...? People will kill with or without firearms"

That simply isn't true, just look at the differences in murder rates between the countries with all the firearms and the ones without, there's a large deficit that people aren't striving to make up by throwing people off balconies.

Guns are too efficient, quick and versatile for that defecit to ever be met through deaths by physical violence.

Mr. Hunter,

"I know the one I take to work everyday always nails somebody before the end of the day"

What? You manage to either shoot or pistol whip someone every single day? British police officers don't carry firearms.

We have armed response units of course, that are called when the need arises (rarely), but PC's walking the streets aren't armed. What's more, it's extremely rare that one is shot (I can't remember the last time I heard of such a thing), and complemetary to that, criminals are also extremely rarely shot by police.

So I'm sure this is beneficial to the families of the British Constabulary, wouldn't you agree?

My father has been a police officer for 28 years, I'm sure he'd agree that arming the police wouldn't be a good idea. How many American police officers go through 28 years on the force without knowing at least one person at their station who gets killed? Maybe in the rural places of course, but I bet the 'city cops' don't.

All,

Listen, I honestly never set out to offend anyone (but then again if you can get offended when someone jokes about the amount of adverts on American cable TV, I guess it's really not that hard cough Clyde cough), as far as I'm concerned, you've all got the right to do what you want, in your own country.

I will not sit here though and have people saying that Britain wants arming to the teeth so we can all shoot each other, when at the moment it's pretty rare.

If you would like me to leave this forum, please ask and I shall simply go.

Ian.

 

[M F]

I'm not going to carry on with this thread because it's going to desend into a political **** slinging match very quickly, and I don't have the time, energy or inclination.

I really didn't intend for a political **** slinging match to happen. I can respect your opinion, though I disagree with it very, very strongly. I hope that you can do the same. To me the bottom line is that if you Outlaw the ownership of guns by law abiding citizens you take away their equalizer when dealing with armed criminals. Criminals, by definition, ignore the laws. I would suggest that you look into the rates of gun related violence in England before the laws became so strict, and compare them to the rates as the laws are now. I am pretty sure(although I can't quote stats) that gun violence has increased a lot. I also believe that England is now the "violent crime capital" of the civilized world. Whether this has any relation to the gun laws is debatable, but I find this interesting.

Sorry for creating a flame-fest here guys. That wasn't my intention at all.

Ian,
I don't think anyone wants you to leave. I just wanted to hear why you thought it was good for guns to be illegal. I absolutely did not want this to turn into a US vs England type of thing either. I was hoping for a friendly debate or discussion. Do us all a favor, and don't take any of this personally. I'm resonably sure that many here enjoy your posts. The few that I've read have been well thought out, and informative. Stick around. This topic won't be around that long.

 

[Les]

I live in England. (I'm not English, but I live here)

Make no mistake, there is a gun culture here too.

Plenty of people in this country own firearms, both legally and illegally, and people do get shot here, quite often.

Les

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by satans.barber

/me sighs.



Mr. Hunter,

"I know the one I take to work everyday always nails somebody before the end of the day"


Ian.

Ian,
Me and you normally get along I have no beef with you. But I think you know that that statement was sarcasim. You stated you dont have the people killing guns, implying that our guns are different. My statement was a direct play of sarcasim to that extent.
God help me I have not had to draw my pistol in years. I pray everyday that I will not have too. I think you know me well enough to know the point I was trying to make.
I think leaving the forum is drastic. you have alot to contribute and i value your opinion. I just honestly think you where way off base with the way you brough it.

See you in the forum.

 

[Sigung86]

Well Ian,

If you are unable to loosen up enough to accept an apology, then I guess perhaps my first concept of you is correct. You are, apparently, your own best example of the stereotypical things I was talking about, but that is not necessarily a British paradigm, just what I said before, but on an individual level.

I could, actually, not care less if you stay or if you go. I would not be so quick to engage in a popularity poll were I in your shoes. Generally speaking, I don't see you as a value added, regardless of place of national origin. As I said before, I have liked most of your posts, but your egocentricity and barely disguised sense of self-hallucinated, nationalistic superiority are irritating and detract from the overall voice of this forum ... Most particularly when you do not show any reticence in voicing them on an international martial arts forum of this caliber, and most particularly with such obvious planned instigation.

The firearms were never the issue with me. Your culture is different from mine, and there is no basis for even a logical disagreement. As for us being a laughingstock of Europe. Well ... That remains to be seen.

Your culture and lifestyle are not mine. I was simply trying to take the Mickey out on you, but feel, on second thought, that you are, perhaps, a legend in your own mind. Apology hereby rescinded.

Kaith, insofar as National Pride ... I am in the United States. I am a proud American. I have served both my country and the Ian's country militarily, as well as proudly and frankly, right about now, I've had about all the US bashing I feel like putting up with from someone I perceive as a second rate misrepresentation of his own country.

If national pride is a factor in being banned from this forum, then please feel free to Ban away ...

Respectfully intended,

Dan Farmer

 

[Kirk]

So you're saying that every post that disagreed with you was
pure American pride? I saw a lot of valid, logical, opinionated
posts that had nothing to do with wounded pride.

I'd also like to ask why you train in martial arts .. aren't you in
essence, arming yourself?

 

[Cthulhu]

Since nobody could take the hint from Kaith's previous warning, this thread is now locked.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-