McDojos and 'The Worst Martial Art': A Controversial Question

[azmyth]

People that bash someone elses art for its effectiveness are obviously insecure about the effectiveness of their own.

practice the art you enjoy. Thats really all that matters. When it boils down to it.. its all art.

 

[Kacey]

People that bash someone elses art for its effectiveness are obviously insecure about the effectiveness of their own.

practice the art you enjoy. Thats really all that matters. When it boils down to it.. its all art.

Nicely stated - and something that can be extended to all areas of life.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Nicely stated - and something that can be extended to all areas of life.

Kacey, SHHHHH! People who are self doubting their own beliefs or religious convictions and or sexual desires may not want to hear that this can and should be applied to them as well.

 

[ciscodog]

ok my 2 cents worth....No style is perfect...if any style could promise that you'll always win and never get hit and back it up, everyone would be practicing it. Why did all these different styles survive? Because they worked, are we the first generation to say, "Hey hes going to take me to the ground because im a striker, i better learn ground technique" , no of course not! I hear all the time "Your in karate what do you know about ground fighting?" Yet we grapple every friday night, pull guard, sweeps, submissions, etc as grappling is part of our cuiriculumn. Why, because when Karate was TE, it used ground techniques. Each style will suffer a stereo-type that isnt always true.

Mcdojo's are poor quality teaching at perhaps inflated prices but the scary thing is that those students will put there lives at risk using crap when they find themselves attacked. Thats the worst part of Mcdojo's, they put innocent people with the best intentions at risk, they just want to protect their family members and these places set them up for failure....a shame

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

If everyone stopped looking at other systems with complete distain they would be able to spend more time perfecting their own skills. Their mastered skills could be then be used to enhance their own system. There then might be fewer McDojos around.

Nice.

But then all the gossips couldn't do their bitching or their "tearing down of others they want to believe are inferior so they can pretend to be superior".

It is amazing how getting some of the gripers in a gi and sparring them will really shut them up. And some of them become friends, because they just didn't know any better and believed a hate-monger.

Thank you for a great post.

I'm going to go and do some pushups, stretch a bit and sweat a bit.

Great advice you gave.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[woot]

In my opinion, a "McDojo" may be doing the same moves as a "legit" school, and they may have shady business practices, but where the "McDojo" really falls short is the lack of theory and application in those moves. The instructor at a "McDojo" may have a legit black belt, but that does not necessarily qualify them to "teach" the art if they don't know the arts true histroy, theories, and applications of what it is they are supposed to be teaching.

 

[Hot Lunch]

...or by their home-brewed, 'ultimate fighting systems'. My question concerns the latter. The instructors at these McDojos often piece together their own martial art from what they believe to be the best parts of others. What results is usually, in my opinion, a poor martial art. It lacks integrity, the philosophy and psychology behind martial arts that have taken hundreds of years to develop.

To say that the 'ultimate fighting system' invented by someone with 5 years of martial arts experience is just as good a martial art as Karate, Tae Kwon Do, or Muay Thai is, I feel, to make a grave insult to these martial arts.

I've seen a few of these schools. The students are almost always in black gi, the school is owned by someone who is a former police officer and/or military SpecOps, the name of their system is usually an acronym, and their training usually includes knife/gun disarmament.

IMO, such schools have their place - especially among those that may not care whether or not their martial art is "traditional."

 

[Buka]

The term "McDojo" refers to martial arts schools that prioritize profit over genuine skill development, often offering easy black belts and superficial training. This phenomenon raises the controversial question: What is the worst martial art? While it's unfair to single out any specific style, McDojos undermine the integrity of all martial arts, focusing more on financial gain than effective self-defense. The worst martial art is not about the style but about how it's taught and practiced. Quality instruction matters.

Welcome to Martial Talk, Martialartsdingo,
I hope you enjoy it here.

There’s a lot of threads on this forum that discuss this subject, they’re fairly easy to find, pleased enjoy them.

Please forget and dismiss the “worst martial concept” we don’t do that here, it’s a dead end street.

 

[mograph]

There's no point in talking about a best martial art, or a worst martial art.

We have this thing (in the west?) where we think that once we join, buy, or identify with a particular thing, that all instances of that thing are the same. I think it's a residue of mass production, where if you buy a widget, all examples of those widgets are the same, and we can trust them to behave in the same way.

A doctor tells us to take up tai chi, and we think that no matter where we study, we get the same thing. We read about a famous Wing Chun master, and we think that we'll get the same instruction no matter where we go to study Wing Chun. So we think that an art that we talk about (second-hand) online will give us the same experience wherever we study it, because it's the best, or the worst, right? But that's just not true.

I play trumpet, and we think that if we buy a Bach 180S37 trumpet (a reputable make and model), that all those trumpets play the same. Well, no, they don't. Not exactly -- you need to try a few to find the one that fits you. Now, Yamaha trumpets are more consistent, but they have very stringent manufacturing processes. Martial arts aren't Yamaha trumpets -- there's a great deal of variation from school to school, dojo to dojo, and teacher to teacher. The brand (style) only gives us a rough idea of what we'll get from a specific environment with a specific teacher.

To ask about the best or worst martial art, to me, is like asking about the best or worst musical instrument (okay, bagpipes excepted). Someone could say, "trumpet's the best," but you get a crappy trumpet and you quit, or you get a great trumpet, and you quit because trumpet's just not for you. Similarly, saying that Xue-fu is the best art is meaningless if you take it anywhere other than where it's taught by Grandmaster Xue Sheng. You just can't make such a sweeping generalization, because Xue Sheng can't be everywhere at once.

Now, if someone creates a new art, with a same that sounds inflated with its own importance, I'd say that says more about the teacher than the art. (Not my thing, but maybe it's for someone.)

So, we need to try out the school and the instructor. And as they say, the best school is the one we actually go to, and that's usually the one closest to where we live. It might not be the most famous martial art, but if the teacher's good, and we actually go to class, then it's the best for us at this time.

Thanks for reading.

 

[_Simon_]

There's no point in talking about a best martial art, or a worst martial art.

We have this thing (in the west?) where we think that once we join, buy, or identify with a particular thing, that all instances of that thing are the same. I think it's a residue of mass production, where if you buy a widget, all examples of those widgets are the same, and we can trust them to behave in the same way.

A doctor tells us to take up tai chi, and we think that no matter where we study, we get the same thing. We read about a famous Wing Chun master, and we think that we'll get the same instruction no matter where we go to study Wing Chun. So we think that an art that we talk about (second-hand) online will give us the same experience wherever we study it, because it's the best, or the worst, right? But that's just not true.

I play trumpet, and we think that if we buy a Bach 180S37 trumpet (a reputable make and model), that all those trumpets play the same. Well, no, they don't. Not exactly -- you need to try a few to find the one that fits you. Now, Yamaha trumpets are more consistent, but they have very stringent manufacturing processes. Martial arts aren't Yamaha trumpets -- there's a great deal of variation from school to school, dojo to dojo, and teacher to teacher. The brand (style) only gives us a rough idea of what we'll get from a specific environment with a specific teacher.

To ask about the best or worst martial art, to me, is like asking about the best or worst musical instrument (okay, bagpipes excepted). Someone could say, "trumpet's the best," but you get a crappy trumpet and you quit, or you get a great trumpet, and you quit because trumpet's just not for you. Similarly, saying that Xue-fu is the best art is meaningless if you take it anywhere other than where it's taught by Grandmaster Xue Sheng. You just can't make such a sweeping generalization, because Xue Sheng can't be everywhere at once.

Now, if someone creates a new art, with a same that sounds inflated with its own importance, I'd say that says more about the teacher than the art. (Not my thing, but maybe it's for someone.)

So, we need to try out the school and the instructor. And as they say, the best school is the one we actually go to, and that's usually the one closest to where we live. It might not be the most famous martial art, but if the teacher's good, and we actually go to class, then it's the best for us at this time.

Thanks for reading.

Very well said, good reflections.

Especially the part about Xue-fu. One must go to the source here for the true teachings, @Xue Sheng must be present

 

[drop bear]

If a school is affiliated with a style. They are using that to market their system and promote their legitimacy.

So if it helps them they seem to be fine with generalisation.

Hence why people bang on about linage.

But when a school is affiliated with a style that is considered garbage. Then they cry about generalisation.

it is cherry picking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To ask about the best or worst martial art, to me, is like asking about the best or worst musical instrument (okay, bagpipes excepted). Someone could say, "trumpet's the best," but you get a crappy trumpet and you quit, or you get a great trumpet, and you quit because trumpet's just not for you. Similarly, saying that Xue-fu is the best art is meaningless if you take it anywhere other than where it's taught by Grandmaster Xue Sheng. You just can't make such a sweeping generalization, because Xue Sheng can't be everywhere at once.

Well, there is @Flying Crane the great Grand master of Xuefu west.

As for me I am the Grand ultimate grandmaster, imperial pooba shigung sensei, grand awesomeness of all Xuefu

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very well said, good reflections.

Especially the part about Xue-fu. One must go to the source here for the true teachings, @Xue Sheng must be present

@Flying Crane would work too... he is very well accomplished at the worlds most dangerous martial art....Xuefu

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, there is @Flying Crane the great Grand master of Xuefu west.

As for me I am the Grand ultimate grandmaster, imperial pooba shigung sensei, grand awesomeness of all Xuefu

All else is moot.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If a school is affiliated with a style. They are using that to market their system and promote their legitimacy.

So if it helps them they seem to be fine with generalisation.

Hence why people bang on about linage.

But when a school is affiliated with a style that is considered garbage. Then they cry about generalisation.

it is cherry picking.

Dai-Ichi Shotokan Va LLC

This is an independent Shotokan dojo in Richmond, VA. The owner claims the rank of 9th dan.

To put this into perspective, Oishi Takeshi is the only active 9th dan in JKA, the largest Shotokan organization. Hiroyoshi Okazaki is the only one in ISKF, and SKIF doesn't have one at all. They're headed by an 8th dan.

So who awarded 9th dan to the owner of this dojo in Richmond, VA?

This is why legitimacy being attached to affiliation is a thing.

 

[drop bear]

Dai-Ichi Shotokan Va LLC

This is an independent Shotokan dojo in Richmond, VA. The owner claims the rank of 9th dan.

To put this into perspective, Oishi Takeshi is the only active 9th dan in JKA, the largest Shotokan organization. Hiroyoshi Okazaki is the only one in ISKF, and SKIF doesn't have one at all. They're headed by an 8th dan.

So who awarded 9th dan to the owner of this dojo in Richmond, VA?

This is why legitimacy being attached to affiliation is a thing.

And this is Shotokan.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And this is Shotokan.

...practicing WKF style sparring (which ISKF doesn't do). How does that address what I said?

BTW, JKA does have another 9th Dan (don't know how I forgot him); Takayuki Mikami - a direct student of Nakayama, was awarded 9th dan just over a decade ago.

Again, how this guy in Richmond, VA is a legit 9th dan... is a mystery.

 

[drop bear]

...practicing WKF style sparring (which ISKF doesn't do). How does that address what I said?

BTW, JKA does have another 9th Dan (don't know how I forgot him); Takayuki Mikami - a direct student of Nakayama, was awarded 9th dan just over a decade ago.

Again, how this guy in Richmond, VA is a legit 9th dan... is a mystery.

Legitimate Shotokan is still Shotokan. So people will view that with whatever options they have of Shotokan.

If for example you took Aikido, ninjitsu, Japanese jujitsu. You could almost expect them to be better the more they move away from their Legitimacy. Because they have removed a lot of historical baggage.

Tritac was the most hilarious version of this. At one point they claimed to be Japanese jujitsu. And I just don't think they really were. And they got roasted for it here.

But they were miles better martial artists than the ones screaming about their linage. They trained live, trained with quality guys and was basically honest about their development.

 

[skribs]

Please forget and dismiss the “worst martial concept” we don’t do that here, it’s a dead end street.

It's very clearly Ameri-Do-Te. Everything else is bovine excrement of the male variety.

 

[_Simon_]

@Flying Crane would work too... he is very well accomplished at the worlds most dangerous martial art....Xuefu

I did stumble on my old attempts at Xue-fu... but I can see just how long it will take to master...