What would an Americanized TKD or any martial art look like/sound like? Are we just talking about replacing ethnic/foriegn terminology with English and replacing TKD customs and courtesies with American customs and courtesies? Even changing the uniforms from Gi's and such to western work out cloths.... I am unclear about what Americanizing an Asian art really means.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Unfortunately, this is exactly what some Instructors have done. In an effort to make their art more palatable to Americans, they strip it of everything that makes it Tae Kwon Do in the first place. There are some thing in Tae Kwon Do that are flexible: terminology( Korean or English), loose clothes versus traditional uniforms. However, many Instructors (Korean and American) go wayyyy too far in an attempt to de-Koreanize a Korean art. America did not invent Tae Kwon Do, and it is not our right to strip it of many of the things that make it what it is: A Korean-based martial art. If you de-Koreanize it, it is no longer Tae Kwon Do, just a set of kicks, punches, and blocks.
French with an American accent is still French, because you are still using French grammatical rules, French syntax etc. Tae Kwon Do with an American accent (English commands, streetclothes to a certain extent) is still Tae Kwon Do, as long as the traditional techniques, etiquette, and customs are used. Tae Kwon Do in an American flag shaped dobok is not Tae Kwon Do. I'm not sure what it is. Tae Kwon Do with made up forms instead of traditional or accepted forms is not Tae Kwon Do.
French with an American accent is still French, because you are still using French grammatical rules, French syntax etc. Tae Kwon Do with an American accent (English commands, streetclothes to a certain extent) is still Tae Kwon Do, as long as the traditional techniques, etiquette, and customs are used. Tae Kwon Do in an American flag shaped dobok is not Tae Kwon Do. I'm not sure what it is. Tae Kwon Do with made up forms instead of traditional or accepted forms is not Tae Kwon Do.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
And then there is the alternate point as well. What would it take to make TKD MORE Korean? I know. At first glance this statement must sound a bit strange, but have you ever considered just how much of both TKD and TSD owe their nature to Japanese rather than Korean traditions? Couldn't we drop the belt rank system and use simple licensure or certification according to a Korean national standard? Couldn't we drop all this "master"/"grandmaster" crap and just have students and teachers? Maybe we would need to train in a dobok that was closer to a han-bok rather than the Japanese do-gi. Maybe we could take a second look at what Korean traditins looked like before the Japanese Occupation, or review technique execution in light of Chinese influences instead of always defaulting to Japanese interpretation? Just some thoughts FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
T
ThuNder_FoOt
Guest
Well,
I'm not sure if I agree with that side of the coin Bruce. Anything prior to the creation of Taekwondo, is just that. It can't be considered Taekwondo if it wasn't included in the original production of TKD. Of course, you would be giving it more culture... but that would be more culture than was originally founded in TKD.
And in reference to Americanization of TKD... I don't think it's possible. To strip away the Korean aspect, is to strip away Taekwondo itself. Back in my teaching days, I recieved mild complaints about the same thing. When I explained that learning TKD is more than just kicks and punches, and explained the reasoning behind the teaching of culture (it's actual essence)... most disregarded their resentment of it. Because to take away it's origin, is to take away it's history, it's reason for existence. And if parents/students couldn't understand that, they found the door.
:asian:
I'm not sure if I agree with that side of the coin Bruce. Anything prior to the creation of Taekwondo, is just that. It can't be considered Taekwondo if it wasn't included in the original production of TKD. Of course, you would be giving it more culture... but that would be more culture than was originally founded in TKD.
And in reference to Americanization of TKD... I don't think it's possible. To strip away the Korean aspect, is to strip away Taekwondo itself. Back in my teaching days, I recieved mild complaints about the same thing. When I explained that learning TKD is more than just kicks and punches, and explained the reasoning behind the teaching of culture (it's actual essence)... most disregarded their resentment of it. Because to take away it's origin, is to take away it's history, it's reason for existence. And if parents/students couldn't understand that, they found the door.
:asian:
L
lifewise
Guest
RCastillo said:
Personally, I would like to see more TKD schools with no Korean terms/language used and very little of the history and nationalism put forth. I agree with Ric's comment " ... I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time."
The club where I originally studied TKD did just that. It was great, and by far one of the most enjoyable places I trained. From time to time, the instructors would discuss the history with us but it was not pushed. I appreciated this approach and found I was more interested in the art because of it. Ettiquette was alive and well in the club, but there were no Korean terms or language used. Don't misinterpret the removal of the history and Korean language as a removal of displine - THAT was always there.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
lifewise said:
The TKD master I studied under didn't use Korean terms. He used English. I never asked him why, but I got the sense he thought it was more practical to use the language of the realm. Note that he was Korean....and to this day has lousy English.
Different TKD associations use different Korean terms, and I've seen people get downright anal retentive about it. Imagine using English and someone gets wrapped around the axle for you calling it a "round kick" instead of a "roundhouse kick". It'd be silly.
Some Americans get so much into the culture of origin of their arts that they abandon their own roots, becoming hanophiles, sinophiles, and nippophiles. It is embarrassing seeing Americans talk in Korean pidgin English, dress in traditional Korean garb (when the Koreans don't even do this), eat nothing but Korean food, and take Korean language courses.
[Aside: I've also seen this with people practicing Japanese martial arts...less so with Chinese arts. Some people are doing it with Brazilian jujitsu. An instructor in this area can be heard coaching his students while talking in a Brazilio-English accent...and this guy was born and bred in Indiana.]
These people want to BE KOREAN (or insert group of choice here). While there is nothing wrong with having an admiration for a culture, this goes into the realm of neurosis. It isn't as uncommon as some of you might think. When people lack a sense of identity, they'll attempt to adopt one.
When you shake hands with someone in the mall, do you place your hand on your forearm as the Koreans do? How about if this person isn't involved with the martial arts...maybe its your attorney or realtor? That may be a sign you're slipping in that direction.
Korean instructors foster this at times (not all of them do, granted), demanding we get into the game and act like Koreans. At times this goes beyond mere discipline or cultural sharing and becomes abusive...like making your students do knuckle push-ups in restaurants, or striking them in public. I'm not making this up.
Other examples come to mind, but if I write them down, I'll just get worked up. It portends to be a beautiful day, and I don't want to ruin it.
Regards,
Steve
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Steve:
I was all set to really tie into you over several of your comments, but the fact is that I can't. You're right!
In my classes I start out my introductory comments at the beginning of the semester by telling the students that they didn't come to the class to learn Korean language, or adopt Korean lifestyles. My job is NOT to turn them into good lil' Koreans! They came to get a taste of Korean MA (specifically Hapkido) and thats what I teach them. I use English because it only makes learning easier, while using a Korean (or even bi-lingual approach) only makes a difficult art harder to learn. Now, I DO use Korean words now and again, and I certainly provide a background in the Korean historical context. But I will not use Korean language as there are far too many inconsistencies in spelling, tranliteration and specification. One mans' ahp chagi is not always that of another mans'. And this gets even worse when one is teaching various chokes, locks, pins and throws!
So I guess the question comes up, "how is this still traditional Hapkido?". I usually answer in three ways.
1.) The art I teach is still traditional because the curriculum that I teach was organized and transmitted by Korean nationals and so is imbued in some way with what they consider important. True I use an academic rather than Confucian approach but the content is still the same albeit rearranged.
2.) The philosophy that under-pins the art is still Korean in the form of the O-Gae or "Five Tenents". True we don't use the old version (#4 "Perform a just kill.") but the modern interpretation still speaks to patriotism, respect for parents and loyalty to friends and I don't see that going out of style anytime soon.
3.) The goal is still to produce warriors. By this I don't mean just people who can fight (those are just "fighters") but people who are willing to become involved in a conflict and resolve it according to a code that recognizes some higher good. This may or may not involve dumping someone on the a$$. In our modern world it usually more often involves sticking up for something or someone who is worthy of your best efforts.
BTW: In closing I also agree with your comments about the "boot camp" approach. Life is hard enough all by itself with some idiot collecting tuition each month just to make it harder. My students, at their core, want to know how to come out in Life as winners, and I have never seen where tearing people down has ever served this purpose. Now true, the Marines and Rangers and Special Forces would probably argue the point but then their missions are just a tad different from those of the neighborhood TKD school, yes? Nice Job!
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I was all set to really tie into you over several of your comments, but the fact is that I can't. You're right!
In my classes I start out my introductory comments at the beginning of the semester by telling the students that they didn't come to the class to learn Korean language, or adopt Korean lifestyles. My job is NOT to turn them into good lil' Koreans! They came to get a taste of Korean MA (specifically Hapkido) and thats what I teach them. I use English because it only makes learning easier, while using a Korean (or even bi-lingual approach) only makes a difficult art harder to learn. Now, I DO use Korean words now and again, and I certainly provide a background in the Korean historical context. But I will not use Korean language as there are far too many inconsistencies in spelling, tranliteration and specification. One mans' ahp chagi is not always that of another mans'. And this gets even worse when one is teaching various chokes, locks, pins and throws!
So I guess the question comes up, "how is this still traditional Hapkido?". I usually answer in three ways.
1.) The art I teach is still traditional because the curriculum that I teach was organized and transmitted by Korean nationals and so is imbued in some way with what they consider important. True I use an academic rather than Confucian approach but the content is still the same albeit rearranged.
2.) The philosophy that under-pins the art is still Korean in the form of the O-Gae or "Five Tenents". True we don't use the old version (#4 "Perform a just kill.") but the modern interpretation still speaks to patriotism, respect for parents and loyalty to friends and I don't see that going out of style anytime soon.
3.) The goal is still to produce warriors. By this I don't mean just people who can fight (those are just "fighters") but people who are willing to become involved in a conflict and resolve it according to a code that recognizes some higher good. This may or may not involve dumping someone on the a$$. In our modern world it usually more often involves sticking up for something or someone who is worthy of your best efforts.
BTW: In closing I also agree with your comments about the "boot camp" approach. Life is hard enough all by itself with some idiot collecting tuition each month just to make it harder. My students, at their core, want to know how to come out in Life as winners, and I have never seen where tearing people down has ever served this purpose. Now true, the Marines and Rangers and Special Forces would probably argue the point but then their missions are just a tad different from those of the neighborhood TKD school, yes? Nice Job!
Best Wishes,
Bruce
hardheadjarhead said:
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
It also important to separate the manners we use with fellow students and Instructors within Tae Kwon Do, and the manners we use outside of class. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to place the hand under the elbow when bowing to a fellow Instructor or BB while in class or at a TKD function. It is unnecessary to do this while in public, or to a non-practitioner, because now we are not in a class environment. I wouldn't even bow to a fellow Master in public, because of the same reason. A simple handshake and nod of the head will do. Likewise, I don't really expect to be addresed as Master_____ while in public, Mr____ or Sir will do. If they want to that's fine. In other words, in public, away from the Tae Kwon Do environment, it is okay to use Western manners. I certainly don't expect students to wear Korean clothes-I don't. If they have a taste for Korean food, that's fine. I like bulgagi myself.
Students who feel that they have to adapt this total Korean culture package are missing the point. It is perfectly fine to adapt some aspects of Korean culture in class (terminology, philosophy, uniforms, some history), but you don't have to be totally into Korea to do it. Reminds of the scene from "Last Dragon" where Bruce Leroy walked around wearing Chinese coolie clothes and hat. Even his Chinese instructor thought he was crazy!
Students who feel that they have to adapt this total Korean culture package are missing the point. It is perfectly fine to adapt some aspects of Korean culture in class (terminology, philosophy, uniforms, some history), but you don't have to be totally into Korea to do it. Reminds of the scene from "Last Dragon" where Bruce Leroy walked around wearing Chinese coolie clothes and hat. Even his Chinese instructor thought he was crazy!
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Michigan TKD:
I'm right there with you. In fact, I would take it a step farther. I would rather see less posturing and dress-up, even in the class, if it would mean that students would carry the deportment farther outside of class. For instance, I would probably pass in requiring uniforms, if it would mean that students would not be such slaves to whatever current fashion trend was buzzing through their school. In this fashion, I would settle for a bit less formality on the mat if I knew for a fact that students were being a bit more respectful to others out in the community. I have seen cases where kids will be solemn and soulful reciting the O-Gae and then turn right around and mouth-off to their parents even before they leave the school. That crap wouldn't go for seven seconds in my class. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I'm right there with you. In fact, I would take it a step farther. I would rather see less posturing and dress-up, even in the class, if it would mean that students would carry the deportment farther outside of class. For instance, I would probably pass in requiring uniforms, if it would mean that students would not be such slaves to whatever current fashion trend was buzzing through their school. In this fashion, I would settle for a bit less formality on the mat if I knew for a fact that students were being a bit more respectful to others out in the community. I have seen cases where kids will be solemn and soulful reciting the O-Gae and then turn right around and mouth-off to their parents even before they leave the school. That crap wouldn't go for seven seconds in my class. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
L
lifewise
Guest
glad2bhere said:
I have witnessed some schools where there is little to no formality. Tread carefully.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
MichiganTKD said:
That's one of the things I loved about that movie...partly because I knew people like that.
Such behavior is very, very adolescent when you think about it. Middle school students are quick to model those they think are cool. Many try and walk, talk, and mimic the expressions and mannerisms of those they admire. Its an attempt at acquiring an identity...and with the martial arts as we've described it, its the same. People require an identity, a sense of centeredness. They look to the martial arts for that...and it can become woefully dysfunctional.
I like bulgolgi, too. I also like miruchi and kim chee.
But I don't eat my popcorn with chopsticks.
Regards,
Steve
MithiosMichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Ironically, one of our Senior Instructors, who is white, belongs to a Korean church in his area. He also got engaged to a Chinese girl when we went to China a couple of years ago. Our Grandmaster has questioned his need to feel like to he has to be totally into Korean and oriental culture. He told us that a white man joining a Korean church would be no different than a white guy joining a black church-there will be a certain amount of resentment bred. Why does he feel the need to join "our" church. This is a church for Koreans. Likewise, the Grandmaster felt that he was trying to demonstrate his love of oriental culture to an extreme. He just didn't see the point. Yeah, he is free to marry who he wants and join whatever church he wants. But to join a Korean church or marry a Chinese girl to show how much into Oriental culture you are seems a bit absurd. The sad thing is that this girl is about 25 years younger than he is. She is physically in her prime and he ain't getting any younger. When she's 35-40 and at her sexual peak, he's going to be an old man in a retirement home. Better start buying the ginseng supplements now!
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
MichiganTKD said:
I recall reading an article some years back where an American Japanese karate stylist was talking about the same problem. One of the Japanese instructors over him essentially said it was useless for Americans to attempt to adopt the trappings of Japanese culture, as nothing the Americans could do would make them any less white. Yet another time I read where Peter Urban was told by a Japanese karate master that no white man could ever achieve enlightenment.
This is a starkly racist attitude, but one that isn't so very uncommon. I've seen Koreans condescend towards Americans insofar as Tae Kwon Do. Remember in 1988 when Arlene Limas won at the Olympics? They didn't have the American national Anthem cued...supposedly because it was inconceivable that we would win. At a more local level I've seen this as well.
Not so O.T. when you tie it in with the sycophantic behavior we we've been talking about. An American might attempt to become a "Bruce Leroy" by adopting Asian mannerisms, but he'll never be Asian. We all, Asian and American alike, are aware of that. The reverse, however, is not true. Asians are much more easily assimilated into our culture.
As far as the old guy and the young Chinese girl...hey, I'm 47. Let the guy live his dream. There's always Viagra and Cialis. I've heard those work wonderfully. Not that I'd KNOW, as I've never taken either one of them...and I never will again. I swear.
Regards,
Steve
Marginal
Senior Master
www.24fightingchickens.com has a lot to say on the subject of trying to be too much of the culture that spawned your respective art etc. Personally, I tend to view people trying really hard tomake their art as Korean, Japanese etc as possible in the same light I'd view Germans who gather to live like Native Americans... Teepees in Germany. Or the British Airlines guy who greets people with an affected, "Howdy!". They tend to pick out elements of a culture and grossly distort them.
This I find to be an interesting wuestion can TKD be Americanize without having to pay homage to Korea.
I would say no it has to have some type of Korean backing to be TKD what is everyong else thoughts on this?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Why is that the case, Terry? Can not a western grandmaster have equal (if not more) knowledge of TKD to share with his students? Certainly, the cultural missteps are gone if your root teacher shares the same background you do.
There are many TKD and TSD organizations that are headed by Americans. Are they any for the worse because they don't have a Korean at the top of the food chain?
Korean basis? Certainly. Korean backing? I don't see why it would have to. Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by Korean backing? Do you mean ties to Korea? To Korean nationals? To Korean history? Any or all of the previous? Something else? And to what extent?
What I mean is ties to Korea, If they where ties than it might as well be Karate. I do not mean we have to have a Korean Master or GM but the hutory has to dictate where it came from and so on and so on. Just Like Korean TKD has a Shotokon backing with them forever.
