TKD Pioneer Cross-training and Does It Affect You

[dancingalone]

Tae kwon do is the way of the hand and feet. A lot of people think that just means punching and kicking, but do you not use your hands and feet to perform a throw or make a joint lock? I think the pioneers of TKD were much more well-rounded martial artists than the typical dojang black black belt today. That said, today there are many more opportunities to learn and grow. If your teacher is unwilling or unable to teach you the full scope of what TKD is, you can certainly find another learning opportunity elsewhere whether it be through a seminar or through another teacher.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, anyway....anyone else agree that from a military aspect, it would make sense to learn how to at least put your opponent on the ground, in regards to TKD?

Yes. To effect an escape, an opponent face down on the ground allows you a head start. An opponent face down on the ground affords you the opportunity to perhaps finish them off before they get back up. In the worst case scenario it puts you in a favorable position, provided that you don't go down to the ground with them.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

So, anyway....anyone else agree that from a military aspect, it would make sense to learn how to at least put your opponent on the ground, in regards to TKD?

Like I said when my father and us was station in Korea we learned takedowns and throws incorported in the TKD, why it is not anymor eis simple they do not allow it in sport. So I believe only a fraction of real TKD instructors shows this anymore.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Like I said when my father and us was station in Korea we learned takedowns and throws incorported in the TKD, why it is not anymor eis simple they do not allow it in sport. So I believe only a fraction of real TKD instructors shows this anymore.

I wouldn't go so far as to say only real TKD instructors show throws....maybe it would be more along the lines of mostly TKD instructors who are not as concerned with the sport side of the martial art.

Other than that, though, I agree with you. I think the sport aspect plays a large part in what is taught in TKD. If I'm correct about our instructor knowing the throws but electing not to teach them, I believe it's because of the insurance factors around here. He has to be careful about what contact is allowed and by whom, because of several instances in the past when people have tried to file suit for injury.

I live in a small southern town that tends to get lawsuit happy at times.

 

[terryl965]

I wouldn't go so far as to say only real TKD instructors show throws....maybe it would be more along the lines of mostly TKD instructors who are not as concerned with the sport side of the martial art.

Other than that, though, I agree with you. I think the sport aspect plays a large part in what is taught in TKD. If I'm correct about our instructor knowing the throws but electing not to teach them, I believe it's because of the insurance factors around here. He has to be careful about what contact is allowed and by whom, because of several instances in the past when people have tried to file suit for injury.

I live in a small southern town that tends to get lawsuit happy at times.

Sorry you are right should have said something like old school instructor will still teach throws and takedowns, I just see so many young instructor only teaching the sport side.:asian:

 

[StuartA]

maybe it would be more along the lines of mostly TKD instructors who are not as concerned with the sport side of the martial art.

Either way... as things get by-passed (for whatever reason) they get forgotton!

I believe it's because of the insurance factors around here. He has to be careful about what contact is allowed and by whom, because of several instances in the past when people have tried to file suit for injury.

Now I know the US is a hotpot for things like this, but I dont see how teaching a throw is more dangerous (insurance wise) than allowing full contact strikes to the head!!

Stuart

 

[Mithios]

Yes, the ITF has, sweeps, throws, joint locking,etc. If you can find some of General Choi's books, it is in there also. if i remember correctly some of it came straight from Hapkido, as some of the General's black belts were in Hapkido also.

I learned alot of it when i was coming up in TKD, Alot of schools dont teach it anymore, which is a real shame. It also helped me get my black belt in Hapkido too, as i already new some of the techniques.

 

[YoungMan]

But even aside from the sparring aspect, my instructor is old school, and he never really delved into hold, throws, chokes, or pins. Occasionally he would show us something along those lines.
My guess is that he considered those actions in the realm of Hapkido/Jujitsu, and did not consider himself an instructor in those arts. Not putting them down, but to him Taekwondo was a kicking, punching, blocking, and pressure point art. Believe me, he knew exactly where to contact you for maximum effect.

 

[terryl965]

But even aside from the sparring aspect, my instructor is old school, and he never really delved into hold, throws, chokes, or pins. Occasionally he would show us something along those lines.
My guess is that he considered those actions in the realm of Hapkido/Jujitsu, and did not consider himself an instructor in those arts. Not putting them down, but to him Taekwondo was a kicking, punching, blocking, and pressure point art. Believe me, he knew exactly where to contact you for maximum effect.

YM I am glad to see your instructor does teach some of it, can you ask him why he chooses not to teach and type of throws or takedowns, I am just curious. I know you said he was Military and they tought that to them during the Korean war. Thanks a head of time.

 

[YoungMan]

Terry,

My guess would be two reasons:

1. Again, as stated previously, he considered them in the realm of Hapkido. He definitely tended to focus on the striking, blocking, and kicking aspects of the art. He could also attack a pressure point in a way that brought tears to your eyes. Although he served in the Korean military, I think by the time he got there Gen. Choi was on the outs and his influence waning. I do have a picture of him with his team with Mr. Uhm and Gen. Choi together.

2. He kept that aspect of teaching to higher ranking students, who in turn taught it to their higher ranking students. It's not really something I've seen junior ranks do effectively.

 

[StuartA]

Terry,

My guess would be two reasons:

1. Again, as stated previously, he considered them in the realm of Hapkido. He definitely tended to focus on the striking, blocking, and kicking aspects of the art. He could also attack a pressure point in a way that brought tears to your eyes. Although he served in the Korean military, I think by the time he got there Gen. Choi was on the outs and his influence waning. I do have a picture of him with his team with Mr. Uhm and Gen. Choi together.

2. He kept that aspect of teaching to higher ranking students, who in turn taught it to their higher ranking students. It's not really something I've seen junior ranks do effectively.

Out of interest, do you know if he learnt this stuff as part of TKD or as another art (yudo for example)?

Stuart
Ps. feel free to post that picture.. that would be cool

 

[BrandonLucas]

Either way... as things get by-passed (for whatever reason) they get forgotton!


Now I know the US is a hotpot for things like this, but I dont see how teaching a throw is more dangerous (insurance wise) than allowing full contact strikes to the head!!

Stuart

I agree that things are by-passed and forgotten. I don't like that fact, but they are.

As far as the insurance things go around here, you would seriously be surprised how many people accept the fact that they are going to be kicked in the head with force, but are unwilling to accept the fact that they may end up on the ground. Sound stupid? You bet it does. But, it's a sad fact that that's the way this town is.

I did talk to my instructor last night after class, and he told me that he does know the throws, and the main reason he doesn't teach them is that students need to understand how to land before they can be thrown. Again, as with the liablity issue and insurance stuff, the morons in this town is what stops this particular passage of knowledge.

However, he did tell me that there may be a time in the future when we can work on those one-on-one.

I think another part of the problem is that the dojang is advertised as a TKD school, and as such, people expect to simply kick and punch. They don't really see it as a school in which you could be taken down to the ground...and since we're talking about a small-minded town, adding that into the cirriculum might not be a good thing to do at this point.

However, whenever I get the chance to open my own school, I would like to learn these techniques so that I can teach them.

 

[bluekey88]

I find this really interesting. It just goes to show despite the TKD umbrella, how heterogenous this MA is. In my school, we learn how to roll, fall, dive tumble and break fall starting at beginner level and progressively getting more advanced well into 3rd dan curriculum. The only place that i went to that had a more comprehensive system of teaching falling is my old Aikido dojo. We also teach locks and throws as aprt of our SD curriculum.

Mind you, this is not a put down of any particualr school...jsut an observation at how things can be so different from TKD school to TKD school.

Peace,
Erik

 

[BrandonLucas]

I find this really interesting. It just goes to show despite the TKD umbrella, how heterogenous this MA is. In my school, we learn how to roll, fall, dive tumble and break fall starting at beginner level and progressively getting more advanced well into 3rd dan curriculum. The only place that i went to that had a more comprehensive system of teaching falling is my old Aikido dojo. We also teach locks and throws as aprt of our SD curriculum.

Mind you, this is not a put down of any particualr school...jsut an observation at how things can be so different from TKD school to TKD school.

Peace,
Erik

I think it has everything to do with where I live and the town the dojang is in. I have no doubt in my mind that my instructor would teach these methods, if not for the fact that people around here expect things to be a certain way, and cannot change at all.

I am going to try to have him teach me these things privately, and once I open a school, you better believe I'll make it public knowledge that students can expect to learn techniques that may put them on the ground.

I think the initial problem is that he didn't start off teaching the techniques.

But that being said, we do concentrate on our striking alot more than other schools do. So, it really is a great comparison on how different the cirriculum can be from school to school.

 

[StuartA]

I am pretty amazed about the insurance things.. seems crazy to me. Dont US schools have disclaimers etc. they could use (as in a student signs that they accept risk of injury as part of the training, due to its nature).

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

I find this really interesting. It just goes to show despite the TKD umbrella, how heterogenous this MA is. In my school, we learn how to roll, fall, dive tumble and break fall starting at beginner level and progressively getting more advanced well into 3rd dan curriculum.

It is indeed, we are the same. All systems with throws in should teach how to break fall first, I thought this was a standard thing and when I refer to throws, break falls are included in that!

Stuart

 

[BrandonLucas]

I am pretty amazed about the insurance things.. seems crazy to me. Dont US schools have disclaimers etc. they could use (as in a student signs that they accept risk of injury as part of the training, due to its nature).

Stuart

Yeah, the schools use disclaimers...

But the main problem is that people are set in their ways around here...if they find out that our dojang has started teaching a rougher style than what we already teach, they would shut the place down.

It should be noted that several other schools have tried to open shop in our town, both MMA type and another ITF competitor TKD dojang, and both were run out of town. If the store hasn't been in place since 1975, then it doesn't last long around here, unfortunately. That is why I'll open my dojang in a different town, although it is close to the town I currently live in.

 

[StuartA]

Yeah, the schools use disclaimers...

But the main problem is that people are set in their ways around here...if they find out that our dojang has started teaching a rougher style than what we already teach, they would shut the place down.

It should be noted that several other schools have tried to open shop in our town, both MMA type and another ITF competitor TKD dojang, and both were run out of town. If the store hasn't been in place since 1975, then it doesn't last long around here, unfortunately. That is why I'll open my dojang in a different town, although it is close to the town I currently live in.

Wow.... where is this place we are talking about anyway?

Stuart

 

[Kacey]

Yes, the ITF has, sweeps, throws, joint locking,etc. If you can find some of General Choi's books, it is in there also. if i remember correctly some of it came straight from Hapkido, as some of the General's black belts were in Hapkido also.

I learned alot of it when i was coming up in TKD, Alot of schools dont teach it anymore, which is a real shame. It also helped me get my black belt in Hapkido too, as i already new some of the techniques.

I teach Ch'ang H'on TKD - and we include rolls, falls, sweeps, throws, joint locks, controls, etc. at every rank. I will say that most of what I know came from a particular VI Dan who originally learned it in Hapkido, because as mentioned previously, those types of techniques were originally included in Gen. Choi's Encyclopedia (it's in my 1965 edition) but gradually fell out over the years because it wasn't codified in the testing requirements. Such knowledge was later added back in, at least in the USTF, and kept (as far as I know) by all the organizations that splintered off from the USTF.