Is it possible to"Americanize" TKD ?

[TLH3rdDan]

oook so north korea is running the itf in vienna... sorry dont really see that as being important unless the fbi is worried that a bunch of 9th dan tae kwon do stylists are going to come over and try to take over the country... thought they had more important things to focus on... ya know the whole 9/11 thing... just my opinion dont see a need to waste money investigating the ITF... and who cares if a student wears a korean flag on his uniform... every tae kwon do school ive ever walked into both wtf and itf have had korean flags hanging on the walls along with american flags the same for some japanese schools ive gone into... the only place i have not seen a flag representing the country of origin so far is in a chinese school... national politics has no place in martial arts...:soapbox:

 

[WaterCircleHarmony]

Whoa!!

Governments running martial arts organizations!
FBI investigates TKD federation!

Can i just ask....bear with me here....Vienna is in Europe no??

So why is the FBI involved?



is general choi a part of the north korean government?? i thought that he was south korean??

things used to be so simple!

 

[Ty K. Doe]

TKD has been Americanized to an extent during the early blood and guts era, back in the 60's.

Americans contributed to changes in both Karate and Taekwondo, primarily as a result of American tournament experience. In the early 1960s, fighters generally fought from a stationary position, using 80% hand techniques and 20% foot techniques. Kicks were usually stomach level or lower, and few fighters would kick off their lead leg. The standard kicks were front kicks or roundhouse kicks off the back leg. The counter reverse punch and the step-through lunge punch were the standard hand techniques. Open tournament competitors in the same period (1962-1964) were better kickers, but their hand techniques were primitive (Overhead Knife-hand strike, etc.) and they also fought from a stationary stance, with no footwork. Countertechniques and combinations were unknown. Kicks included roundhouses off both lead and trailing leg and spinning back kicks. Most of these kicks came from the Southwest (possibly due to Jhoon Rhee's influence there), as did kicks to the head and jumping side kicks. East Coast fighters introduced the jumping double front kick, and used the lead leg roundhouse more than other early stylists. West Coast fighters stuck to the older Japanese styles. In 1965, Mike Stone was released from the Army and won nine consecutive tournaments without being defeated, primarily using a lead leg roundhouse and double ridgehands.

In the late 1960s, Chuck Norris became a champion by combining Korean kicks (including lead leg side kick) with Japanese hand techniques. He was also the first fighter to successfully introduce combination techniques. Joe Lewis also came to fame at this time by the use of the lead leg side kick and the crossing back kick, demonstrating the effectiveness of single technique specialization. Lewis also proved the effectiveness of a lead punch. As a result, lead techniques began to gain recognition, although they would not become widely popular until the 1970s. Footwork in this period became the standard back and forward movement still prevalent today. Later on, point fighters would establish the basis of American Kickboxing. After the WTF concentrated on the sport form of Taekwondo, Korean instructors began emphasizing competition rather than self-defense. As an example, touch blocks have long since replaced formal blocks in sparring.

 

[Klondike93]

And so American Freestyle Karate was born......



:asian:

 

[Ty K. Doe]

I'm sorry, credit should be given where credit is due. The information from my last post came from:

http://www.ituk.org.uk/

 

[Quick Sand]

I know that thread hasn't been active in a long time but I'm new to the forum and was reading back through older threads. I think it's very possible to Americanize TKD because I'm in a style right now that basically did just that. It's called American Kang Duk Won Tae Kwon Do.

Our Grandmaster was an American who trained in and recieved his Tae Kwon Do black belt in Korea in the late 1960's. He also had black belts in other Japanese and Okinawain styles of Martial Arts. When he returned to American he decided to incorporte techniques from the other styles into the Kang Duk Won style he studied in Korea. It's my understanding that they wanted to keep things purely traditional in Korea and didn't like incorporating techniques from other styles. I'm not sure exaclty how we separated but in the end my Grandmaster formed the AMERICAN Kang Duk Won style. We do not pay homeage to Korea although we do recognize it as an important part of our history.

Part of the main idea in my style is to continue to develop techniques and change techniques so that they work in everyday practical applications here in North America.

 

[celtic bhoy]

ITF Taekwon Do at this time is what is stipulated in Gen.Choi's book. The Korean terminology is used so any student can train in any dojang in the world and follow instruction. If an american is mixing and matching moves and techniques, then I'm sorry but you can only call it American Freestyle.

 

[Quick Sand]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't totally clear. I did not say that we are any form of ITF Tae Kwon Do. We are a totally seperate style called American Kang Duk Won Tae Kwon Do. It is still "the art of striking with the hands and feet" or however you wish to translate "Tae Kwon Do" and we did branch off of the original Korean style ot Kang Duk Won.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Yes it is possible to "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do. The following are some of the ways I have seen it done:

1. Don't wear white uniforms. White uniforms are boring. America is the land of Hollywood and flash. Therefore colored uniforms are much more exciting.

2. Don't teach manners and etiquette. Those are quaint but outdated.

3. Don't teach forms. Forms are worthless in today's society. If you want to really practice martial arts, save the sissy stuff for wimps. Real men just fight and practice street defense.

4. Don't send any money to Korea. We don't give our hard earned money to those foreigners. Save it for Americans.

5. We don't need the Kukkywon to tell us our rank. I'll decide when I'm 7th Dan. Better yet, I'll let the United States Martial Arts Association certify me. They'll certify anybody!

Any questions?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yes it is possible to "Americanize" Tae Kwon Do. The following are some of the ways I have seen it done:

1. Don't wear white uniforms. White uniforms are boring. America is the land of Hollywood and flash. Therefore colored uniforms are much more exciting.

2. Don't teach manners and etiquette. Those are quaint but outdated.

3. Don't teach forms. Forms are worthless in today's society. If you want to really practice martial arts, save the sissy stuff for wimps. Real men just fight and practice street defense.

4. Don't send any money to Korea. We don't give our hard earned money to those foreigners. Save it for Americans.

5. We don't need the Kukkywon to tell us our rank. I'll decide when I'm 7th Dan. Better yet, I'll let the United States Martial Arts Association certify me. They'll certify anybody!

Any questions?

Are these your opinions as well?

 

[Disco]

On the subject of "Americanization", I have 2 words...... ED PARKER........

 

[glad2bhere]

I guess I need an operational definition of the term "Americanize". What exactly do we mean when this term is used? So far I am hearing that people would like to cherry-pick what techniques they will do and what techniques that they won't. So far I am hearing that people would like to choose what philosophical bent they will engage with and that which they won't. Does "Americanize" mean that you get to pick and choose what it is that you will and won't do--- like, if I have a REAL good reason?

I'm an old fart. What if I don't want to do high kicks? What if I decide that I want to train in Hapkido but don't want to take breakfalls or do air-rolls? What if I want to use my hands more because I have a boxing background and that gives me an edge in competition?

Lets take it a step farther. When I am all done with my picking and choosing and have a conglomeration that fits me to a tee, do I still call it TAEKWONDO? What if I have taken Aikido and added some low kicks. Can I now tell everyone that I teach Sims-Do Hapkido?

I may be wrong but growing up in the States has taught me that Americans are Past-Masters at wanting what they want, when they want it, 'cuz they want it. Deferred gratification is often considered a sign of stupidity, naivete', or self-abuse. All the same I understood that one of the prime purposes of engaging in KMA is to sublimate ones baser impulses and that often means doing something that is unpleasant, strange or inexplicable. Thoughts? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Good point. One of the trademarks of "American" martial arts is Instructors who pick and choose different techniques from various styles, cherry picking, and call it a new martial art. Either because they didn't get very high in one style and are making up for by adding from different styles, or they got kicked out/quit a former organization and decide to teach on their own. Why? Money and ego.This is why you have these pseudostyles that combine Tae Kwon Do/Karate/Hapkido/Brazilian Jujitsiu etc. into one conglomeration. The Instructors tend to be low level black belts from no name organizations who think they can make money from other low level black belts who are dissatisfied with their organization. If you notice, many of these "Masters" offer rank and certification to anyone regardless of style. A true Instructor with legitimate credentials would never do that.
One more thing. Based on the ads I've seen for these pseudostyles, creating your own style and calling yourself Headmaster or Soke apparently entitles you to call yourself 10th Dan.

 

[RCastillo]

I guess I need an operational definition of the term "Americanize". What exactly do we mean when this term is used? So far I am hearing that people would like to cherry-pick what techniques they will do and what techniques that they won't. So far I am hearing that people would like to choose what philosophical bent they will engage with and that which they won't. Does "Americanize" mean that you get to pick and choose what it is that you will and won't do--- like, if I have a REAL good reason?

I'm an old fart. What if I don't want to do high kicks? What if I decide that I want to train in Hapkido but don't want to take breakfalls or do air-rolls? What if I want to use my hands more because I have a boxing background and that gives me an edge in competition?

Lets take it a step farther. When I am all done with my picking and choosing and have a conglomeration that fits me to a tee, do I still call it TAEKWONDO? What if I have taken Aikido and added some low kicks. Can I now tell everyone that I teach Sims-Do Hapkido?

I may be wrong but growing up in the States has taught me that Americans are Past-Masters at wanting what they want, when they want it, 'cuz they want it. Deferred gratification is often considered a sign of stupidity, naivete', or self-abuse. All the same I understood that one of the prime purposes of engaging in KMA is to sublimate ones baser impulses and that often means doing something that is unpleasant, strange or inexplicable. Thoughts? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time.

As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around. One must be an individual and follow what works for them best. Once, I was testing for 3rd Dan, and was told the self defense had to be purely TKD, so my gripe about that is that it is lacking, and needs more than that to make my self defense work for me, not just to please them. They don't beleive in "bastardizing" the art, but there is Hapkido within it's work anyway. In todays time, I don't know if you can keep it pure anymore, if one wants to be practical. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear R:

I think MichiganTKD pretty much wrapped it up and put a bow on it, but I do want to say something about your comment from a bit different point of view.

".......Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time......"

I thoroughly understand your point, but then, why take a Korean MA art? The Koreans have had various social and cultural features for centuries. Their "way of doing things" is just that, THEIR way of doing things. Personally I think the US could use one helluva lot more emphasis on ettiquette, a persons' responsibilities to his neighbor, ones' place in society and the morality of ones' actions in terms of the common good. For myself I get just a little tired of the GD whining and groaning. MA too hard? Go take up Baseball. I study and research Korean MA BECAUSE it comes from another culture and as such provides me with a different set of challenges founded in a different culture. Now, I WILL agree that the Koreans need to get their act together about how they tell a story. Everybody with a belly-button has their own self-serving take on Korean traditions, and its usually at someone elses expense. Got enough of that here in the States.

".......As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around........"

I teach my students that my job is to work my way OUT of a job. I am there to provide challenges plus coaching to help them become winners regarding those challenges. In time they should be able to pick out and master their OWN challenges and leave me behind as we all have done with ANY of the teachers in our lives. I mean, sometimes we go back to visit old teachers we have had, but none of us goes running back to the 3rd grade classroom every time we need to remember what 4 times 7 is, right?

One other thing to remember. Just because the guy at the head of the mat has an epicanthic fold in his eye doesn't mean he has the market cornered on wisdom. Not a few of the KMA teachers came to this country because they couldn't cut it in the "Old Country". Consider how many people graduate as Phys Ed instructors in this country and then imagine what sort of person would emigrate to Korea because he couldn't find or hold a job here? See my point? In Korea one binds with the teacher, not the art or organization. Thats why there never was anything but "kwans" (lit. "focus groups") until during and after the Japanese Occupation. No styles, or grandmasters, or organizations. If somebody finds a great teacher, stick with that guy. If the guy you have doesn't wind yer clock there are a helluva lot more where that guy came from. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Posted by: glad2bhere

".......As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around........"

I agree with this point.

 

[MichiganTKD]

A good example I can use is the American Tae Kwon Do Association-ATA-before HU Lee's death. What Lee was good at, regardless of what you might think of the ATA, was making his Korean art a little more palatable to Americans, particularly Southerners. He was able to market Tae Kwon Do in a way that Southerners could relate to, while still keeping it Tae Kwon Do and Korean. He didn't change a bunch of things and call it "American-style Tae Kwon Do", because there is no such thing. It was traditional Tae Kwon Do marketed to a certain segment of the population. I'm not saying I agree with everything he did. I do think a lot of it got watered down to have mass appeal. But on certain levels he was successful. For example, if I want to learn German or Japanese or Korean there are grammatical rules and syntax that I must abide by, otherwise it's not German or Japanese. I can pretend it is, but it's not. If I don't like the rules, I can pick up a different language.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear MichiganTKD:

There is also Joon Rhee who is often touted as the "father of American Taekwondo". Does anyone know how (if at all) his approach to TKD varies compared to other teaching approaches? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

I am not a member of Jhoon Rhee's organization, so can't really speak for him. However, what I think he did was take the basic philosophy and moral foundation of Tae Kwon Do and teach it in a way that Americans could relate to. Again, I don't always agree with his tactics, but his approach seemed to work. For example, I think gold lame' uniforms are rather silly looking. But he also turned Tae Kwon Do into kind of a community activity and living civics and citizenship lesson-respect, loyalty, good citizenship etc. He was not as hard-core as some Instructors I've seen, but his approach works for him.
He also didn't try to pass it off as American-style Tae Kwon Do. It was simply Tae Kwon Do tailored to Americans.

 

[RCastillo]

Dear R:

I think MichiganTKD pretty much wrapped it up and put a bow on it, but I do want to say something about your comment from a bit different point of view.

".......Well, since this was my question I posted, let me clarify. In class, many Korean terms/language is used, and alot of history/nationalism is put forth. I wonder about that, and I want to learn an art form, and while I respect it's history, I don't want that to be in the forefront all the time. I also feel the ettiquete doesn't have to be that strong all the time. I understand discipline, but not totally rigid all the time......"

I thoroughly understand your point, but then, why take a Korean MA art? The Koreans have had various social and cultural features for centuries. Their "way of doing things" is just that, THEIR way of doing things. Personally I think the US could use one helluva lot more emphasis on ettiquette, a persons' responsibilities to his neighbor, ones' place in society and the morality of ones' actions in terms of the common good. For myself I get just a little tired of the GD whining and groaning. MA too hard? Go take up Baseball. I study and research Korean MA BECAUSE it comes from another culture and as such provides me with a different set of challenges founded in a different culture. Now, I WILL agree that the Koreans need to get their act together about how they tell a story. Everybody with a belly-button has their own self-serving take on Korean traditions, and its usually at someone elses expense. Got enough of that here in the States.

".......As far as the technique, one should follow the art, and simply do the best they can according to their ability. In essence, you should make TKD fit you, not the other way around........"

I teach my students that my job is to work my way OUT of a job. I am there to provide challenges plus coaching to help them become winners regarding those challenges. In time they should be able to pick out and master their OWN challenges and leave me behind as we all have done with ANY of the teachers in our lives. I mean, sometimes we go back to visit old teachers we have had, but none of us goes running back to the 3rd grade classroom every time we need to remember what 4 times 7 is, right?

One other thing to remember. Just because the guy at the head of the mat has an epicanthic fold in his eye doesn't mean he has the market cornered on wisdom. Not a few of the KMA teachers came to this country because they couldn't cut it in the "Old Country". Consider how many people graduate as Phys Ed instructors in this country and then imagine what sort of person would emigrate to Korea because he couldn't find or hold a job here? See my point? In Korea one binds with the teacher, not the art or organization. Thats why there never was anything but "kwans" (lit. "focus groups") until during and after the Japanese Occupation. No styles, or grandmasters, or organizations. If somebody finds a great teacher, stick with that guy. If the guy you have doesn't wind yer clock there are a helluva lot more where that guy came from. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I took TKD becuase there was no Kenpo here any more, so I got into it. I've since moved on back into Kenpo, but enjoy the TKD forms, and am inactive as far as the organization is concerned, and w/o that, I feel I wouldn't as gone as far as I have in Kenpo. I owe it alot of credit. :asian: